Open-Only in PP2.0?

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
As you said 12Mil copies, few thousands of active players and the game is still here.
All we know about current player numbers is that we don't know what they are.
And while initiatives like AXI continue to involve players and shape the galaxy, solo hauling is not.
Noting that AX combat can be engaged in in any of the three game modes, such initiatives need not involve playing in Open. Arguably "solo hauling" also contributes to shaping the galaxy - in CGs, when doing so in Open becomes un-fun due to players engaged in particular activities in the CG destination system. The same can be said of players in Solo engaged in any pan-modal game feature, by design.
 
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As you said 12Mil copies, few thousands of active players and the game is still here. So it's already happened. And while initiatives like AXI continue to involve players and shape the galaxy, solo hauling is not. Feeding the community with tools, efforts and content is the main reason the game is still here.

I believe you’re confusing concurrent players with active players. Even on Steam (takes sip), the current average of 3200 concurrent players may represent nearly a quarter of a million active players… assuming that player activity is spread evenly over the course of a month.

Edit:
Looks like I’ll have to cut that estimate to about 125,000 active players on Steam. Steamspy stopped keeping their average playtime behind a paywall, and these days it’s nearly twice what it used to be. Yay having access to somewhat accurate information!
 
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I love how people throw all these numbers around as if anyone knows how many players there are. 🤦‍♂️

On PC we have;

Standalone Client,
Steam Client,
And I'm unsure about the copy on the Epic store as I've never opened it, but I'd figure that's standalone as well

Plus;

Xbox
PlayStation
Meta Quest VR

So that's 6 different ways to log in, and they do not share their data. (I have 3 of these myself)
And don't get me started on all this "Inara" rubbish. An optional tool that only some people use is hardly a way to try and calculate anything.

Frontier is the only one who knows the numbers and they are not saying what those are to us. Plus they made the PP2 announcement, it's not Open Only.

If fact isn't this whole thread a moot point now Frontier have said PP2 is in all modes??
 
And while initiatives like AXI continue to involve players and shape the galaxy, solo hauling is not. Feeding the community with tools, efforts and content is the main reason the game is still here.
AXI had a fairly minor role in the Thargoid war until quite recently with combat being perhaps the least effective method of controlling Thargoid spread, particularly during the period of the sampling meta.
Groups like Stelanebula have been far more effective than AXI if you're going to cite the Thargoid weekend at Shinrarta you might note some of the comments from Shinrarta based Cmdrs at the time.
Fdev have constantly adjusted resistance of Thargoid systems throughout the conflict much to the frustration of those trying to coordinate actions such as DCoH.
 
All we know about current player numbers is that we don't know what they are.

Noting that AX combat can be engaged in in any of the three game modes, such initiatives need not involve playing in Open. Arguably "solo hauling" also contributes to shaping the galaxy - in CGs, when doing so in Open becomes un-fun due to players engaged in particular activities in the CG destination system. The same can be said of players in Solo engaged in any pan-modal game feature, by design.
Yes, you can engage in any of the game modes, but let's take a closer look:

  • Thargoids can be avoided entirely in Solo, just like players can be avoided in Open. This highlights that the choice to engage in specific content is in the player's hands.
  • It's common to find AXI players in Open, which makes this mode more vibrant and interconnected, especially when discussing community initiatives.
  • The original discussion was about the fact that only 5% of players successfully deal with Thargoids 1v1, which has led some solo haulers to consider AX activities irrelevant. However, this overlooks the broader impact on the galaxy and overral partecipation.
  • Solo haulers often view AX activities as a niche, but the influence of AXI goes beyond in-game activities. They shape the galaxy and the lore through websites, YouTube channels, Reddit, and other community platforms.
  • Many solo haulers don’t admit that AX activities and the presence of organizations like AXI attract new players, adding depth to the game experience.
I hope that PP2, aside from individual satisfaction, will work similarly to Thargoid content in fostering player interaction, new user acquisition, and retention across all modes. 🤞
 
AXI had a fairly minor role in the Thargoid war until quite recently with combat being perhaps the least effective method of controlling Thargoid spread, particularly during the period of the sampling meta.
Groups like Stelanebula have been far more effective than AXI if you're going to cite the Thargoid weekend at Shinrarta you might note some of the comments from Shinrarta based Cmdrs at the time.
Fdev have constantly adjusted resistance of Thargoid systems throughout the conflict much to the frustration of those trying to coordinate actions such as DCoH.
Stelanebula's online material is predominantly in German, which limits its effectiveness in engaging and retaining new players compared to the broader, more accessible content produced by AXI. That said, I don’t intend to question or debate the value of ingame activities, they are perfectly valid! However, when it comes to attracting and supporting new players, the reach and influence of AXI content is more substantial.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Yes, you can engage in any of the game modes, but let's take a closer look:

  • Thargoids can be avoided entirely in Solo, just like players can be avoided in Open. This highlights that the choice to engage in specific content is in the player's hands.
  • It's common to find AXI players in Open, which makes this mode more vibrant and interconnected, especially when discussing community initiatives.
  • The original discussion was about the fact that only 5% of players successfully deal with Thargoids 1v1, which has led some solo haulers to consider AX activities irrelevant. However, this overlooks the broader impact on the galaxy and overral partecipation.
  • Solo haulers often view AX activities as a niche, but the influence of AXI goes beyond in-game activities. They shape the galaxy and the lore through websites, YouTube channels, Reddit, and other community platforms.
  • Many solo haulers don’t admit that AX activities and the presence of organizations like AXI attract new players, adding depth to the game experience.
I hope that PP2, aside from individual satisfaction, will work similarly to Thargoid content in fostering player interaction, new user acquisition, and retention across all modes. 🤞
1) Indeed, by design.
2) Common, certainly. By no means exclusive or a requirement.
3) Some solo haulers, maybe. Noting that hauling is but one of the activities available to players in modes other than Open - AX being one of them. Some may assume that most AX content has been engaged in in Open, however that's just an assumption.
4) That some perceive that they in some way influence the game through means other than playing is obvious.
5) More players = better. Noting that some of those new players may also have little or no inclination to engage in PvP - and will have bought the game on the same basis as everyone else, i.e. mode shared galaxy; three game modes to choose from.
 
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If an influx of new players add to the number of players who choose to interact in Open then that is to be celebrated.
IMHO, to attract new players in Open first have to be solved "imperfections" detracting them from doing so, probably. And that is definitely not the absence of PP2.0, but actions and behavior of other people in Open.
Speaking for myself only: Started in EDO this year, kind of "returning" player from ZX Spectrum at 1991-92 (BTW, Thargoids were there already :) ). What really unpleasantly surprising in whatever mode is complete absence of Crime&Punishment system. Complete.
Not only gunkers but massacration of entire tourist settlement just for sake of downloading data from dataport? Come on! It has to be punishable even in year 3310.
 
I hope new CMDRs will enjoy that content too, and that PP2 encourages is some way Open interactions 🏴‍☠️ 🤞

That's why I've always been willing to try the equivalent of Open mode in previous MMOs like Elite Dangerous. They're like the No Man's Sky of survival games. On paper, No Man's Sky should be a game I enjoy. In reality, there's a number of factors, mostly minor, that combined sucked the fun out of it. On paper, PvE games that feature open-PvP should be an experience I enjoy.

In reality, the behavior of a small segment of the playerbase sucked the fun out of those games, to the point where I'd rather deal with all the irritations that come with turning on a PvP switch than have to put up with them. Based on comments from the Dev Teams of those other games, over 95% of the player-base made the same choice I did. Which is why, following Frontier's statement that a significant majority of players willingly choose Open in this game is so astonishing, to the point where I felt compelled to test that statement, and much to my surprise I found it to be true.

Right now, this game in general, and PowerPlay in particular, has a "What's the point?" problem when it comes to initiating PvP for me. I'm not a combat-oriented player. I never have been. I played a shopkeeper in one game, though that did require going out to hunt game. I will do combat from time to time, but I need to be tempted into doing that, rather than it being my default choice. So besides that particular source of friction against initiating PvP, there's three other sources of friction:

Specialized Builds - Frontier really dropped the ball when it came to ship design in this game. It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a ship not specialized in PvP to ever win against one that is specialized in it. Furthermore, it's also difficult for a ship not specialized for combat in general to win against a specialized combat ship. Making all defensive modules be optional ones, rather than their own type of module, means a specialized combat ship can dedicate all the optional modules used to run missions or transportation towards hit point inflation.

Inadequate Reward - One of the side effects of hit point inflation is the increase in time to kill. If PvP combat between similar builds, for example takes ten minutes to finish, then that reward needs to be worth at least ten minutes worth of PvE activity. Given that the chances are good that PvE activity guarantees results, while the outcome is likely to be in doubt with PvP, the reward needs to partially compensate for that potential loss as well.

Unequal Distribution of Risk - And that's the final variable in the equation. I know what I'm carrying in terms of risk, so I'm extremely unlikely to initiate combat against a combat ship, whether equipped for PvE or PvP, because they won't be carrying the same amount of risk I am. The only time I'm likely to be in a position to intiate such an intercept is when they're enroute to a combat zone, not on the way back from a combat zone. Thus they won't be carrying anything worth destroying. And if they're the one doing the intercepting, I'm not going to be fighting back, because again they're not carrying anything worth destroying.

Which is why, unless the most effective way to earn merits turns out to be mission running, then it's highly unlikely for me to ever willingly initiate PvP combat, or fight back for that matter. There's just no point. And if my old BGS 1.0 strategy is any indication, I represent the norm, not the exception, among the playerbase, even though my attitude toward PvP in general is the exception among players like me.

And if the most effective way to earn merits does turn out to be mission running, then perhaps we'll see some fun. ;)
 
massaration of entire tourist settlement just for sake of downloading data from dataport? Come on! It has to be punishable even in year 3310.

It's amazing how different the worldbuilding via game mechanics is, compared to what we're told the world of Elite in the 34th century is like. Especially when it comes to the Pilots Federation. We're told that the Pilots Federation is a trade union of transport pilots, who do some mercenary work on the side. The game mechanics depict the Pilots Federation as something far more sinister, to the point where I've got to ask:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h242eDB84zY&ab_channel=4KRemasters
 
What would bring me personally to Open (or very-very large PG):
  • Ganking and other aggression against allied CMDRs is prohibited and must result in Tier-demotion at least for Power we both currently pledging to. It is clear that world in 331* in the state of permanent war, but friends and enemies are have to be defined much, much more clearly than at the moment.
  • Missions for guarding allied "solo haulers" decided to go Open could be very much fun for everyone including Haulers, but with current in-game communication and very much lack of flexible CRs financial operations between CMDRs? Hopefully PP could at least easier aspect with proper mission arrangement. For example one takes delivery mission that should begin only when guard missions are also accepted by needed number of CMDRs. This way rewards and communications could be covered by in-game mission logic, but probably that is too much to desire at the moment.
  • On-foot actions and missions for PP are basically endless field of involvement in the future.
 
Specialized Builds - Frontier really dropped the ball when it came to ship design in this game. It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a ship not specialized in PvP to ever win against one that is specialized in it. Furthermore, it's also difficult for a ship not specialized for combat in general to win against a specialized combat ship. Making all defensive modules be optional ones, rather than their own type of module, means a specialized combat ship can dedicate all the optional modules used to run missions or transportation towards hit point inflation.
I thought I would jump in at this point just to add a thought or two on engineering, particularly because this is an aspect of the game that I'd pondered long and hard before playing it. The question that I had I'm mind was this: After having appreciated the game il2 sturmovic for quite some time in the past, particularly just how well modelled historically the engineering in game was, it went a very long way towards creating the quality of the game play, because at any time in history, air superiority is utterly fundamental to all power bases and during times of war, this superiority is directly depend upon the arms race.

Never at any time more so,than during the period of the First and Second World Wars, a period of development that saw progress from bi-winged propeller planes that threw hand granades as bombs and shot at each other with hand guns, to fighter jets, rockets and missiles.

Aware that any particular year could give significant benefits to flying a particular plane, knowing your planes and your enemy's planes, their flight characteristics and techniques that exploit these characteristics or those of weaknesses in your opponents went an extremely long way in success of failure of a pilot.

How can you model this in a space game, how can you model it in any game, if you do not have a historical record to work from?

Engineering goes some way towards creating this depth of game play and realism in ship to ship combat, but it is no surprise that the system does not integrate easily with the rest of the game, precisely because it is so important to air or in this case space superiority. Rather than dropping the ball, I think perhaps the system's importance was underestimated, that what is there is already a superb effort in the right direction, but that it is incomplete as is.

I'll state again that engineering is everything, in all power plays that have ever been, and in those that will surely take place in the future. Heck, it was the arms race against the thargoids that killed off the guardians!

The game would not benefit from removing or curbing engineering, that would only serve to make the game very flat and lacking in dimension, however the task of making engineering into something that, in its essence, would make the entire game gel together, is a massive undertaking.
 
That's why I've always been willing to try the equivalent of Open mode in previous MMOs like Elite Dangerous. They're like the No Man's Sky of survival games. On paper, No Man's Sky should be a game I enjoy. In reality, there's a number of factors, mostly minor, that combined sucked the fun out of it. On paper, PvE games that feature open-PvP should be an experience I enjoy.

In reality, the behavior of a small segment of the playerbase sucked the fun out of those games, to the point where I'd rather deal with all the irritations that come with turning on a PvP switch than have to put up with them. Based on comments from the Dev Teams of those other games, over 95% of the player-base made the same choice I did. Which is why, following Frontier's statement that a significant majority of players willingly choose Open in this game is so astonishing, to the point where I felt compelled to test that statement, and much to my surprise I found it to be true.

Right now, this game in general, and PowerPlay in particular, has a "What's the point?" problem when it comes to initiating PvP for me. I'm not a combat-oriented player. I never have been. I played a shopkeeper in one game, though that did require going out to hunt game. I will do combat from time to time, but I need to be tempted into doing that, rather than it being my default choice. So besides that particular source of friction against initiating PvP, there's three other sources of friction:

Specialized Builds - Frontier really dropped the ball when it came to ship design in this game. It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a ship not specialized in PvP to ever win against one that is specialized in it. Furthermore, it's also difficult for a ship not specialized for combat in general to win against a specialized combat ship. Making all defensive modules be optional ones, rather than their own type of module, means a specialized combat ship can dedicate all the optional modules used to run missions or transportation towards hit point inflation.

Inadequate Reward - One of the side effects of hit point inflation is the increase in time to kill. If PvP combat between similar builds, for example takes ten minutes to finish, then that reward needs to be worth at least ten minutes worth of PvE activity. Given that the chances are good that PvE activity guarantees results, while the outcome is likely to be in doubt with PvP, the reward needs to partially compensate for that potential loss as well.

Unequal Distribution of Risk - And that's the final variable in the equation. I know what I'm carrying in terms of risk, so I'm extremely unlikely to initiate combat against a combat ship, whether equipped for PvE or PvP, because they won't be carrying the same amount of risk I am. The only time I'm likely to be in a position to intiate such an intercept is when they're enroute to a combat zone, not on the way back from a combat zone. Thus they won't be carrying anything worth destroying. And if they're the one doing the intercepting, I'm not going to be fighting back, because again they're not carrying anything worth destroying.

Which is why, unless the most effective way to earn merits turns out to be mission running, then it's highly unlikely for me to ever willingly initiate PvP combat, or fight back for that matter. There's just no point. And if my old BGS 1.0 strategy is any indication, I represent the norm, not the exception, among the playerbase, even though my attitude toward PvP in general is the exception among players like me.

And if the most effective way to earn merits does turn out to be mission running, then perhaps we'll see some fun. ;)
The problem will always be reconciling the strategic side with the player level parts. The 'whats the point' part works for attack as that denies the power that allocation of work, that allocation of work should be more valuable as a consequence. As I said elsewhere you could easily map places with lots of destruction going on and apply a danger pay multiplier for hauling. The BGS in PP already records shipping lost, bounties accrued and where- from that a heat map of danger could be made and even used as a pre-jump warning (i.e. your destination is 'hot').

You also cannot balance a feature in Open that is essentially random people in random ships doing random things. Sometimes you will be matched unfavorably and then its down to ship builds or teaming up with others.

To be honest I think Kaines module should be 600 m/s hatchbreakers, because if they were a thing ship destruction would be secondary to spilling the load of Powerplay cargo. But then with powers using different materials (LYR seems to use data) that might have really been a V2 thing.
 
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