Open-Only in PP2.0?

[Doctor Dread]

I believe the game would have been much better if they had never canceled the offline-mode. ....

The thing is, Elite is a solo single player offline-mode game in it's core. That's it's essence, it's spirit. Something you make of it, you alone, late night in your room.

All this MMO PvP PvE Other People is an abomination to an ultimate blaze-your-own-trail solo experience of you and your computer, detached from the mundane world outside

 

[Morbad]

The thing is, Elite is a solo single player offline-mode game in it's core. That's it's essence, it's spirit. Something you make of it, you alone, late night in your room.

All this MMO PvP PvE Other People is an abomination to an ultimate blaze-your-own-trail solo experience of you and your computer, detached from the mundane world outside

Elite: Dangerous has always been explicitly online-only and implicitly multiplayer-only. Without that offline mode, the game has to be treated as what it is...a shared experience where almost nothing one can do happens in a vacuum, where each and every one our character's is everyone else's content, to the extent the mode and BGS/PP systems mandate interaction. It shares some of the same lore and the same name, of those older games, but it was never a direct replacement.

Frontier built an abstract MMO then tried to tell people it could be a single player game too, without actually provisioning for it.

 

[Lateralus]

I was replying to this part of a post:

"Nobody would lose access to anything then, there would be content for PvPers and long standing issues (combat logging, blocking etc) would have a solution....."

I think you assumed that in my suggestion I meant taking missions to shoot random bystanders... No, read the suggestion. All missions players would be willing voluntary participants. The link to the suggestion post is also in my sig

 

[Darrack]

The thing is, Elite is a solo single player offline-mode game in it's core. That's it's essence, it's spirit. Something you make of it, you alone, late night in your room.

All this MMO PvP PvE Other People is an abomination to an ultimate blaze-your-own-trail solo experience of you and your computer, detached from the mundane world outside

Its why Elite is so brilliant, there is a mode to suit all

O7

 

[Brrokk]

Its why Elite is so brilliant, there is a mode to suit all

O7

This! The great choice of play styles has given the game a much larger player-base (and so more development and upgrades) than it would have had as either a solo game or a PvP game.

We PvE and PvP players need each other.

 

[SergMx]

Open is not, and, with the current state of networking and rule enforcement, cannot replace sound mechanisms underlying the rest of the game. Any such biases with regard to mode would setup perverse incentives that would neither improve the Open experience, nor be practical to prevent people from abusing irrespective of the intent of those biases. There is also a strong antipathy for making the modes more unequal, which I generally agree with, as I don't believe the mode system should misrepresent itself as some kind of difficulty toggle.

The game doesn't respect our choices or desires and even if tried to, making all choices equivalent would be a poor way to go about it, especially given that this has always been a shared, multiplayer-only, setting.

I firmly believe the game, to be a credible portrayal of the setting it ostensibly depicts, needs a universal baseline difficulty that is both wholly independent of direct CMDR threats and significantly higher than anything we've yet been presented with since the game's release.

With or without any of that, the only way to allow that 'blaze your own trail!' stuff to be carried to the logical extremes that some seem to have in mind would be to also have an offline game that players can tune to taste, without affecting the shared game state in any way.

The question is essentially, why separate NPCs and humans? And not separate in the other?

Why does the level of security of the system in no way affect the complexity of the game in this system?

 

[Cyanite]

Keep em all (open, solo and Pgs), but keep em all separate. Nothing in one should effect the other. Nothing.

 

[Venan]

Its why Elite is so brilliant, there is a mode to suit all

O7

A lot of games these days are lowering their bar to allow more players "into" the game. Which is great for the developers... more people, more money. However the cost of this comes with the soul of the game. Everyone is successful, can do everything equally, and is allowed all the same fairness in every way. Now every achievement... is achieveable by anyone and everyone... easily. This means no one fails, only succeeds, everyone's receiving a participation trophy for hitting the install button.

Don't get me wrong, it's good to give players options to play how they want and take what they want of the game to enjoy it. However in the long run, this is EXTREMELY unhealthy as a mindset for the game's health and future as it promotes mediocrity and lower standards that don't challenge anyone anymore. If you remove conflict to the extremes and give players means to access everything they want to achieve easily, there is nothing to overcome, no challenge to beat, no difficulty, no reason to "need" anything. Why ask for protection from a vanguard of pvp players who protect miners in asteroid clusters when you can just go solo and avoid every bit of that interaction? Why influence a system with the idea of promoting benefits and ideals for a populace when you don't interact with the populace...


We really need to break this habit of trying to make every game acceptable to play for every single individual. It's simply killing games from having any value and removes a lot of the enjoyment on both ends for all players. I hate to beat a dead horse but the "a game for everyone is a game for no one" applies to this game too. The more open and easier we make the game without offering challenge to compensate, the less interested its playerbase will be to continue playing so it won't matter if new players come in if they just exit out in a week. You're left with a husk of a game that won't improve, won't get any better, won't try anything different.

 

[Agrippa]

I think the debate is irrelevant, the real thing is sniping systems while flying open to anger those that hide in solo. I'm out there trashing systems while you could stop me easily.

 

[Darrack]

A lot of games these days are lowering their bar to allow more players "into" the game. Which is great for the developers... more people, more money. However the cost of this comes with the soul of the game. Everyone is successful, can do everything equally, and is allowed all the same fairness in every way. Now every achievement... is achieveable by anyone and everyone... easily. This means no one fails, only succeeds, everyone's receiving a participation trophy for hitting the install button.

Don't get me wrong, it's good to give players options to play how they want and take what they want of the game to enjoy it. However in the long run, this is EXTREMELY unhealthy as a mindset for the game's health and future as it promotes mediocrity and lower standards that don't challenge anyone anymore. If you remove conflict to the extremes and give players means to access everything they want to achieve easily, there is nothing to overcome, no challenge to beat, no difficulty, no reason to "need" anything. Why ask for protection from a vanguard of pvp players who protect miners in asteroid clusters when you can just go solo and avoid every bit of that interaction? Why influence a system with the idea of promoting benefits and ideals for a populace when you don't interact with the populace...


We really need to break this habit of trying to make every game acceptable to play for every single individual. It's simply killing games from having any value and removes a lot of the enjoyment on both ends for all players. I hate to beat a dead horse but the "a game for everyone is a game for no one" applies to this game too. The more open and easier we make the game without offering challenge to compensate, the less interested its playerbase will be to continue playing so it won't matter if new players come in if they just exit out in a week. You're left with a husk of a game that won't improve, won't get any better, won't try anything different.

Nothing about the three modes is 'lowering the bar', i completely agree that games are easier now having spent most of my gaming life leading raids in Everquest.
But that doesn't apply to Elite.
Open isn't harder and it makes me laugh folks still use that old chestnut, i can fly for hours without meeting a single soul and if i did they couldn't stop me.
Solo is about playing without interference because that's all gankers are (aside from some hackers who one shot you).
PG (Mobius) is everything Elite Open should have been, a co-op against the galaxy

The thargoid war had (and still has) nowt to do with Open and is still some of the hardest content in Elite.
There are plenty of challenges out there without having to worry about dodging Mr McbasementKeyboardwarriorMcboatface.

O7

 

[Venan]

"Interference" is what you call it? I'll give it to you that there's hackers and gankers, but I think that's more a result of poor design choices that don't naturally or organically support players to actually be around each other. The more you promote solo-able activities, the less needed it is to be an "mmo" because why have multiplayer if you do everything by yourself anyways? It's this weird illusion of thinking you're accomplishing something in a multiplayer existing setting that doesn't actually matter when your results don't affect anyone since YOU DON'T INTERACT WITH ANYONE. Some people actually enjoy pvp? Some people WANT to face these so called "interferences" and overcome them, and have powers actually influence these to be in their favor to promote actual interactions with players. It absolutely lowers the bar because you get a shiny lil ribbon for playing all by yourself and having no part to do with anyone or anything else. It's like saying you're apart of a larger ecosystem when you play a youtube app game because you see other names on a scoreboard of random people... It doesn't actually matter anywhere. That's apart of the problem and has been for a while in the game.

There's also that same old excuse I see in other MMO's where "the hardcore content is already over there, go do that! I'll be in my corner over here!" and that's the entire problem. Separate everyone, leave them all alone about themselves, no conflict, no choices, no meaningful decisions, just solo in the same game everyone's playing. Comparing PVE to PVP is not a good defense here. Nothing will top player interaction and people shouldn't settle for no multiplayer in a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ADVERTISED GAME. I again repeat, "a game for everyone is a game for no one" and it's very well going to be the case for Elite and lead to its downfall as time goes on and nothing is promoted for players to engage in anything together. Vanguards are thankfully a good step in the right direction and I like how powerplay 2.0 is going now too, so hopefully there's more decisions to encourage people who actually want to see other players rather than a self contained solo experience(again... in a game advertising as an MMO).

I mean it when I say this, we need to stop promoting servicing every single player possible with a lower foundation of engagement. We need to promote actual engagement instead of handing out trophies to everyone doing almost nothing. We need gameplay that matters or what are you actually achieving?

 

[Darrack]

"Interference" is what you call it? I'll give it to you that there's hackers and gankers, but I think that's more a result of poor design choices that don't naturally or organically support players to actually be around each other. The more you promote solo-able activities, the less needed it is to be an "mmo" because why have multiplayer if you do everything by yourself anyways? It's this weird illusion of thinking you're accomplishing something in a multiplayer existing setting that doesn't actually matter when your results don't affect anyone since YOU DON'T INTERACT WITH ANYONE. Some people actually enjoy pvp? Some people WANT to face these so called "interferences" and overcome them, and have powers actually influence these to be in their favor to promote actual interactions with players. It absolutely lowers the bar because you get a shiny lil ribbon for playing all by yourself and having no part to do with anyone or anything else. It's like saying you're apart of a larger ecosystem when you play a youtube app game because you see other names on a scoreboard of random people... It doesn't actually matter anywhere. That's apart of the problem and has been for a while in the game.

There's also that same old excuse I see in other MMO's where "the hardcore content is already over there, go do that! I'll be in my corner over here!" and that's the entire problem. Separate everyone, leave them all alone about themselves, no conflict, no choices, no meaningful decisions, just solo in the same game everyone's playing. Comparing PVE to PVP is not a good defense here. Nothing will top player interaction and people shouldn't settle for no multiplayer in a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ADVERTISED GAME. I again repeat, "a game for everyone is a game for no one" and it's very well going to be the case for Elite and lead to its downfall as time goes on and nothing is promoted for players to engage in anything together. Vanguards are thankfully a good step in the right direction and I like how powerplay 2.0 is going now too, so hopefully there's more decisions to encourage people who actually want to see other players rather than a self contained solo experience(again... in a game advertising as an MMO).

I mean it when I say this, we need to stop promoting servicing every single player possible with a lower foundation of engagement. We need to promote actual engagement instead of handing out trophies to everyone doing almost nothing. We need gameplay that matters or what are you actually achieving?

Sorry this hurt my old eyes! But yes i am playing an MMO, i play exclusively on Mobius a huge PVE server

O7

 

[Venan]

That's great, it works for the private session option who have private groups. So why do we need a solo mode other than to isolate and separate everyone from playing with each other? There's a difference between providing a convenience and removing all reasons for players to engage in activities together. If Elite Dangerous is truly wanting to embrace letting players shape the galaxy individually and show a reflection of their decisions on a greater scale, then the game needs common ground to work on that will be acceptable for everyone in spite of the conflicts presented. It's through the conflicts and hurdles a game provides that players have a reason to join together, just like the thargoid war. The same applies to pvp and power play. Again, if everyone is playing by themselves or off in a separate instance doing their own thing, what matters anymore if you don't interact with anyone else naturally?

EDIT: Side note... To say "Yes I'm playing an MMO!" and then following it with how you're in a completely separate area away from everyone else exclusively is a bit paradoxical to the game. I wouldn't normally say this is an issue when you have high population games that support servers and this is normalized but Elite's not doing great in numbers from what I can tell. If everyone's playing an MMO but they're all on their own server, it's only an MMO in namesake, not in gameplay or feel.

 

[SergMx]

I've written several times before and I'll say it again. I will move to an open PP game after reaching rank 100.

I have a question, I can't find a logical answer myself. What is the point of 100% return of the penalty for death when reaching 100 rank? Why is it not given when joining PP?

 

[Venan]

I've written several times before and I'll say it again. I will move to an open PP game after reaching rank 100.

I have a question, I can't find a logical answer myself. What is the point of 100% return of the penalty for death when reaching 100 rank? Why is it not given when joining PP?

Because why would you rank up PP otherwise besides the couple of niche bonuses and random weaponry you're provided? Gotta give you something to work towards and having free rebuys being killed either in your own power's territory OR an opponent's is pretty outrageous.

 

[SergMx]

Because why would you rank up PP otherwise besides the couple of niche bonuses and random weaponry you're provided? Gotta give you something to work towards and having free rebuys being killed either in your own power's territory OR an opponent's is pretty outrageous.

Based on that logic, I'll play single player mode until rank 100, after which I'll get bored with PP/total achievement and drop it altogether.
Probably really shouldn't be encouraged to play PP in open mode, which is what was done.

 

[Venan]

Based on that logic, I'll play single player mode until rank 100, after which I'll get bored with PP/total achievement and drop it altogether.
Probably really shouldn't be encouraged to play PP in open mode, which is what was done.

You're 100% correct. It's almost like there's no incentive to engage with other players at all :')

You give it to players up front, they have all they could want and don't need to do anything with PP. Give it to them at the end, you have the same problem as engineering creating a barrier that forces players to feel required to go solo until they meet their goals "safely" or else their progress is hindered. What sane person would opt to go into open play full well knowing their progress will be slower than if they just do it themselves solo when there's so many designs in gameplay creating gaps between players. There's no incentive and in fact it's just punishing since a normal player in open play is engineered to the brim and going to wipe you off the galaxy while the other player is still in "the grind" of unlocking them to even stand a chance. God this game needs so much TLC.

 

[Darrack]

It's almost like there's no incentive to engage with other players at all :')

Other players are optional, Fdev created a game for everyone that still gives them the chance to be involved in the galaxy, a stroke of genius on Fdevs side.

O7

 

[Ian Doncaster]

If everyone's playing an MMO but they're all on their own server, it's only an MMO in namesake, not in gameplay or feel.

While it would certainly be misleading to say "Elite Dangerous is not a MMO", it's not exactly following the typical genre conventions of one either.

I've occasionally seen the term "Massively Single-Player Online" for games in that sort of niche - you can meet up with other people but it's not necessarily expected that you will; most inter-player interaction is indirect and asynchronous - but it's not exactly a widely-understood term that Frontier can advertise the game as.

That said, the main problem with meeting up with other players is not the modes but the map scale. The two systems I've spent most time in lately, looking at the traffic reports:
- one of them is just me, and maybe a player a day present in supercruise for a minute as they jump to somewhere else
- one of them has a bunch of haulers (traffic report pretty much purely T-9, T-8 and Cutter) probably doing 5 minute "supercruise to station, load, hyperspace out" trips. The total traffic report is about 40 ships, so the system is going to be occupied for maybe 3 hours out of the entire day. I sometimes see people there at the weekends, but it's not like there's much interaction possible beyond saying "hi" since we're both hauling different cargoes to different places on our own schedules
- there are some Powerplay systems nearby, which I've never seen anyone else in. Can't remember what the traffic reports look like - but they're right on the back of the Power's space facing the fringes of the bubble, so no other Power can plausibly attack them anyway. PP2 brings the "the map is huge" problem to Powerplay, so 99% of the time it makes no difference what mode anyone is in because no-one else (and certainly no-one else from another power) is going to be in the system anyway
- colonisation has just doubled the size of the bubble and spread people out even further

If Frontier had thought about this a bit more pre-release in 2013, and wanted to encourage same-instance interaction - which at least back then, they did - they'd have made the bubble considerably smaller (perhaps 1000 systems at most) and not kept the exact FE2/FFE setting. Obviously with colonisation they've decided that possibility is entirely messed up, and see no harm in it getting much bigger and player meetups being by appointment only.

 

[SergMx]

Other players are optional, Fdev created a game for everyone that still gives them the chance to be involved in the galaxy, a stroke of genius on Fdevs side.

O7

As far as I know this reward only applies if you are killed by other Commanders (humans), that is, playing alone you are deprived of this reward altogether.

I agree - genius