Open PvE

[PhazonAran]

I'm sorry what? PvP players do not need pve players. Not everyone who enjoys pvp just go around picking on pve players. This is an asinine argument.

Yet a lot of people advocate to force everyone in Open. I doubt it is because they want fair fights.

Pvpers need people. Because player vs player is the name.

The problem is that some PvPers find that they lack (players) targets to shoot at. So they want to force players in Open. And that is wrong. If you lack targets it simply means people don't want to play with you. Period.

But in context, if players didn't have the CMDR tag and holo icons you wouldn't be able to tell them apart from npcs.

I actually like this idea. I wouldn't be able to tell the players apart from NPCs, but neither could the PvPers.

So strictly speaking whats wrong with pvpers? They are just npcs you know are harder.

IMO there's a big difference between an AI script doing its job and another human being consciously opening fire at me.

 

[Metsuro]

Yet a lot of people advocate to force everyone in Open. I doubt it is because they want fair fights.

Its because they want fights. Just because you choose to not get your friends, or get people to defend you isn't their fault. its yours. You are a self policing force in this universe. If someone is attacking you. You can, and should deter them from doing so. You choose not to though, and thats ok.

The problem is that some PvPers find that they lack (players) targets to shoot at. So they want to force players in Open. And that is wrong. If you lack targets it simply means people don't want to play with you. Period.

Again, when you want to start a fight... you start a fight. You choose to not try and deter said actions, or engage in the fight isn't the orginial aggressors fault. You made the active choice of not pursuing them and adding consequence to their actions.

I actually like this idea. I wouldn't be able to tell the players apart from NPCs, but neither could the PvPers.

Not really as players will fly the same paths over and over again and will have relatively the same load outs for transporting goods. It'd be relatively easier after awhile to pick them out. Not to mention I'd start writing down names to create a list of players myself.

IMO there's a big difference between an AI script doing its job and another human being consciously opening fire at me.

My job as a pirate is to fire upon you to steal your goods, and try deter you returning to engage me with your friends/bounty hunters. There is not difference outside how I'd fly vs the AI script. They want your cargo, and to kill you.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Its because they want fights. Just because you choose to not get your friends, or get people to defend you isn't their fault. its yours. You are a self policing force in this universe. If someone is attacking you. You can, and should deter them from doing so. You choose not to though, and thats ok.

IMO the thing is elite has a 30 year old pedigree of being a game where you play as a lone wolf, you againt the universe. Now, ED brings MP into the equation, but we were always promised that PvP would be a rare and meaningful occurrence in this game, and that unsanctioned ship "murder" of a member of the pilots federation whilst possible would be frowned upon and be treated harshly and with real consequences for the killer. We were told that whilst ALL was the preferred group that they ideally wanted us all to be in, we were promised even there that that MP in ED would be optional, and a mostly co-operative experience, where we can do our own thing as a lone wolf if we chose, with the option to jump in and have some player interaction before going on our way if we so chose.

IF the solution is to get a group of people and fly together in an armada then that is not the game many of us bought.......

A trader may have no interest in getting a fighter ship, that is what the police are for, and if a player chooses to they should be able to stay in high sec systems like Lave etc knowing that the police have their backs for the most part, all they have to do is keep out of anarchy space.

 

[Metsuro]

IMO the thing is elite has a 30 year old pedigree of being a game where you play as a lone wolf, you againt the universe. Now, ED brings MP into the equation, but we were always promised that PvP would be a rare and meaningful occurrence in this game, and that unsanctioned ship "murder" of a member of the pilots federation whilst possible would be frowned upon and be treated harshly and with real consequences for the killer. We were told that whilst ALL was the preferred group that they ideally wanted us all to be in, we were promised even there that that MP in ED would be optional, and a mostly co-operative experience, where we can do our own thing as a lone wolf if we chose, with the option to jump in and have some player interaction before going on our way if we so chose.

IF the solution is to get a group of people and fly together in an armada then that is not the game many of us bought.......

A trader may have no interest in getting a fighter ship, that is what the police are for, and if a player chooses to they should be able to stay in high sec systems like Lave etc knowing that the police have their backs for the most part, all they have to do is keep out of anarchy space.

that was in the context of open. If you want to play lone wolf you can do so in solo. If you want to have a group run, you can do that in groups. I'm not really sure what you brought this up for open?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

that was in the context of open. If you want to play lone wolf you can do so in solo. If you want to have a group run, you can do that in groups. I'm not really sure what you brought this up for open?

no ....................... all of the above was in relation to ALL........ ALL is the game mode DB stated he hoped we would play in, ALL is the game mode where we were still able to play as a lone wolf, and even in ALL PvP would be rare and meaningful.

even in ALL high sec space was meant to mean something.

Playing as a lone wolf in the context of RPing in Elite is NOT the same as playing in solo.

 

[Metsuro]

no ....................... all of the above was in relation to ALL........

No, it was in the relation to open. As you can't be killed by a player in solo. You can't be killed by a player in group, unless they are your friend. You can be attacked, and killed in open the mode for in which all play styles are valid regardless if its one you like or not. In open if your being attacked, you make the choice to just accept it and move on, or try and deter them from attacking you again.

 

[Commander Debic]

Of course another way around this would be to make the open group PVE only for about the same amount of time it has been PVP only, with no ability to shoot other players, and tell those who want PVP open only to go form a PVP only group. Reversal of present situation. Use this period as an exercise, then depending on collated results choose a final format for the game based on population sizes of the two periods.
This would mean the game would follow what the majority of players wished to be the standard.
Of course it won't happen though, as whichever way the dice fell I think ED would lose a large number of players, as the company would then be following a definite path for the future of the game which would upset one group or the other instead of having this rather fuzzy direction it follows now, which allows both groups of players to fervently argue their own corner should be the way.

 

[PhazonAran]

Its because they want fights. Just because you choose to not get your friends, or get people to defend you isn't their fault. its yours. You are a self policing force in this universe. If someone is attacking you. You can, and should deter them from doing so. You choose not to though, and thats ok.

Don't worry for me, for some reason I'm never interdicted in my fully loaded Anaconda even though I'm alone. Not that I'm searching for PvP anyway.
Though we have to remember that in Elite, we evolve in a policed space. I find that there is a disturbing lack of consequences for flat out murder.

Again, when you want to start a fight... you start a fight. You choose to not try and deter said actions, or engage in the fight isn't the orginial aggressors fault. You made the active choice of not pursuing them and adding consequence to their actions.

Are you saying that PvE players are "asking for it" ? I'll try not to make a misplaced analogy here...

Not really as players will fly the same paths over and over again and will have relatively the same load outs for transporting goods. It'd be relatively easier after awhile to pick them out. Not to mention I'd start writing down names to create a list of players myself.

And I'd be totally cool with that, or with anything, if when you see a player for the first time you can't be sure if he really is a player or not.

My job as a pirate is to fire upon you to steal your goods, and try deter you returning to engage me with your friends/bounty hunters. There is not difference outside how I'd fly vs the AI script. They want your cargo, and to kill you.

Pirates are after the cargo, not the kill. If I'm sure to die whatever I do, you won't get a single ton from me. Or I'd purposely fly a T9 full of biowaste and hit the big red jettison button.

 

[Metsuro]

Are you saying that PvE players are "asking for it" ? I'll try not to make a misplaced analogy here....

Of course not, thats a rediculus statement to try and back up lol. What I am saying is that in open, its open. Anything can happen, and this includes getting attacked. However if you are attacked, its up to you the player to make things happen. If you choose to just take the hit and then move on to your next haul. Thats an active choice. You are accepting the outcome and moving on. But you do have the choice, to bring wingmen for defense. You do have the choice to submit the players name to bounty hunter groups. You do have the choice of hunting them down yourself. You have the choice to give meaningful consequence to their actions.

The majority want meaningless consequence to try and prohibit the act all together. Making the act have more punishments then the overall reward itself is bad game design. Having the player lose money before pirating is bad game design. (saying they should pay the insurance cost the players they've killed )

Though I am also for cargo insurance for missions. But for transporting your own goods I dont think so. But none of this really has anything to do with overall topic at hand.

 

[Cula-Ta]

I would like there to be an open PvE group as well to run as Mobius does with PvP only in conflict zones although I would accept PvP in anarchy systems as well to enable the pirate mode to work with suitable risk reward enabled.

 

[PhazonAran]

Of course not, thats a rediculus statement to try and back up lol. What I am saying is that in open, its open. Anything can happen, and this includes getting attacked. However if you are attacked, its up to you the player to make things happen. If you choose to just take the hit and then move on to your next haul. Thats an active choice. You are accepting the outcome and moving on. But you do have the choice, to bring wingmen for defense. You do have the choice to submit the players name to bounty hunter groups. You do have the choice of hunting them down yourself. You have the choice to give meaningful consequence to their actions.

The majority want meaningless consequence to try and prohibit the act all together. Making the act have more punishments then the overall reward itself is bad game design. Having the player lose money before pirating is bad game design. (saying they should pay the insurance cost the players they've killed )

Though I am also for cargo insurance for missions. But for transporting your own goods I dont think so. But none of this really has anything to do with overall topic at hand.

I'm sorry, I didn't get your point.

The problems we're hitting next is the lack of bounty hunting tools (I'm pretty sure those n°1 criminals would be actively searched by whatever authority they angered ?), the P2P architecture and its instancing system (+ combat log), and the lack of consequences for crimes. I'm not asking for such harsh punishments, but you have to admit that wiping your criminal record so easily is ridiculous.

I'll add that I have no problem with piracy. This is fair game and in fact, I think black markets should work totally differently. You managed to pirate 30 tons of palladium ? Bring it to an anarchy outpost that needs that palladium, and they better pay a good price for it.
My problem is with those people picking up on newbies or unarmed traders "just for the lulz". In high security systems. The police forces should be buffed up, IMO, and your criminal status shouldn't be that easy to wipe.

 

[SiriusSeven]

Its because they want fights. Just because you choose to not get your friends, or get people to defend you isn't their fault. its yours. You are a self policing force in this universe. If someone is attacking you. You can, and should deter them from doing so. You choose not to though, and thats ok.

Tell that to all the new Steam users who just started in LHS 3447, have no in game friends or contacts, and are now being hunted and rammed on sight:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=134527
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=134856
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=134852

I thought we didn't want this game to be EvE, where you need to make friends even just to survive?

FD need to get a grip on this, especially for newbie zones. At the very least I'd vote for system authority vessels in high security systems to be armed with super powerful torps not available to players, and able to one-shot any ship. Think the equivalent of calling "guards" in Ultima Online. Reality be damned.

(Though I still prefer an official multiplayer PvE option on the start screen)

 

[SirGeldi]

Tell that to all the new Steam users who just started in LHS 3447, have no in game friends or contacts, and are no being hunted and rammed on sight:

(Though I still prefer an official multiplayer PvE option on the start screen)

I'm curios, how can you tell if someone is a steam player or not ?
Do they all start in the same system ?

BTW i would like to have PvE option too.

 

[SiriusSeven]

I'm curios, how can you tell if someone is a steam player or not ?
Do they all start in the same system ?

BTW i would like to have PvE option too.

Yes. There are only a few well known starting systems. I think Steam users are implied by the fact they are still in the starting zone and flying sidewinders, and this is coincident with the steam launch. I read that the traffic report in Eravate jumped from 10k in 24h to 30k, and that 25k of those passing through were in Sidewinders. (Btw congrats FD)

 

[Distance]

I don't think the problem with the new players is a pve vs pvp discussion. It's a case of having too few starter systems so everyone is bundled in the same place.

I think you'll find the majority of the new steam players are more disposed to an open mode just because of the target demographic.

One of the biggest issues found by new plays has been the lack of docking cues.

That being said, I'm still in favor of a pve mode but I think it's more important for fd to work on the overall criminality and consequence system that will affect everyone regardless of "mode".

 

[SiriusSeven]

I don't think the problem with the new players is a pve vs pvp discussion. It's a case of having too few starter systems so everyone is bundled in the same place.

I think you'll find the majority of the new steam players are more disposed to an open mode just because of the target demographic.

One of the biggest issues found by new plays has been the lack of docking cues.

That being said, I'm still in favor of a pve mode but I think it's more important for fd to work on the overall criminality and consequence system that will affect everyone regardless of "mode".

That could be. In any case, it reminds us that FD miscalculated the human element.

 

[Distance]

That could be. In any case, it reminds us that FD miscalculated the human element.

I hear they did that before "pvp will be a rare and meaningful occurrence"

I've been having a ton of fun in open doing the Cemiess community goal though. There's 3 of us open traders in the top 5 contributors and there's pirates a plenty in the system. That in turn has bought in a ton of bounty hunters to drive said pirates out on the system. The majority of players are rping (including the pirates) and it's really good fun unless you run away from a pirate

Not knocking group pve but cemiess this weekend has been ED how most people in this thread wanted ED to be.

 

[Jesse30]

Hey brother how can I join Möbius?

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

That being said, I'm still in favor of a pve mode but I think it's more important for fd to work on the overall criminality and consequence system that will affect everyone regardless of "mode".

I think that is much more important than almost anything (well, along with making NPCs harder so solo mode is not easy mode). I will argue (and continue to argue) that this whole thread, and many like it, are all talking about the wrong thing, because they are discussing symptoms of other problems: lack of consequences and solo=easy. Once those are in place (if they ever will be in place - it is not as if these are a surprise to FD), then we can start to have a sensible conversation about solo vs open. But I suspect it will be too late by then to 'save' open, as many will have given up because of the fear of murderers and run away to solo/Mobius, and not feel the need to ever return.

 

[SiriusSeven]

I think that is much more important than almost anything (well, along with making NPCs harder so solo mode is not easy mode). I will argue (and continue to argue) that this whole thread, and many like it, are all talking about the wrong thing, because they are discussing symptoms of other problems: lack of consequences and solo=easy. Once those are in place (if they ever will be in place - it is not as if these are a surprise to FD), then we can start to have a sensible conversation about solo vs open. But I suspect it will be too late by then to 'save' open, as many will have given up because of the fear of murderers and run away to solo/Mobius, and not feel the need to ever return.

and if you believe what is being said, sooner would be better than later:

I'm not sure if FD may already be aware (I assume yes). But apparently your success has gotten noticed.
.
One of my old corp mates from EvE mentioned last night. Apparently a large group of players from multiple corps on EvE are deliberately targeting Elite, this was going on before to a limited degree but has apparently reached a much more serious and organized level since the Steam launch. The intent seems to be to run Elite into the ground before it can take off. The plan is apparently to target and grief the living crap out of people, new players specifically until people quit and the game dies off.