Powerplay Our best quit over 5th column

Commander Jemy had this to say on Reddit:

"I am commander Jemy Murphy, pledged to Zemina Torval, member of Protectores Zemina Nostri, Imperial High Command and the Torval Strategy Team. I have published and updated Reddit strategy posts for Zemina Torval since cycle 7, kept our spreadsheets updated, founded and gathered Torvalians to our strategy board and lead other cooperative efforts both within and outside Zemina Torval.
Based on tonight's 5th column attack that used Zemina Torval to damage ALD and potentially Aisling Duval I am about to resign at least some of my duties but I am at least going to update or provide the fortification plan and continue to do fortifications. I am working out the rest of the ramifications during the day.
Annwn and Kalana are SCRAP targets. More about this later.
For the past weeks Zemina Torval have been plagued by handling preparation grinders preparing poor systems. During cycle 22 Zemina Torval worked extra on her regular fortification plan to be able to afford an end-of-cycle preparation of Olelbis and Juipedi to defeat the 4CC system Bridi that is often prepared by grinders. Due to our increased effort we were sucessful at almost fulfilling our fortifications one day early. Even if we were attacked by Zachary Hudson during the week it had almost no impact as if they hurled some spears at us after the fortress had already been built.
Tonight at 4:16 UCT I had stood up (5:16 in Sweden) and made sure that the list had Juipedi at 9272 and Olelbis at 9214 at the top of our list. At the time Kalana was at 9102 while Annwn were way behind. These were the preparation targets we had and that PZN had worked on. At the end of the cycle Bridi stayed at 7634 and was thus defeated. However, at 6:40 UCT Annwn had been put in lead at 13885 with Kalana second at 12274.
Annwn is a 7CC system that contest 10 systems from ALD. It was prepared with roughly 5-6k within the final 2-3 hours. How this action was carried out and where it was carried out make it evident that Annwn is a 5th column attack aimed to use Zemina Torval in order to strike at ALD. Kalana may look like a good system at first glance. But it is located 107 light years from Zemina Torvals headquarters Synteini and by the look of it it's chosen to off Aisling Duval who worked on acquiring Kalana in the past. It was prepared with 3k within the final 2-3 hours.
My frustration with this have built up over time and tonight's event was just the final drop. I have despised the preparation system since before cycle 7 when I took position as the Reddit strategy poster for Zemina Torval. Defeating dedicated and interested players is one thing. Having the federation undermining our systems is just part of the game and the bickering back and forth just for fun. Defeating ignorant and uninterested players pledged to Zemina Torval is another. Recent weeks the competition between Zachary Hudson and Zemina Torval have been downscaled, instead defeating preparation grinders have been the central weekly effort.
5th column undermining is an activity I know most of the community despise as it doesn't use regular power-vs-power gameplay provided by the system, but instead abuse it's less thought out components to damage a power from within with an ease and damage that the regular gameplay doesn't provide. I doubt that any official strategists from Zachary Hudson or Archon Delaine were aware or responsible for this. Despite the in-game competition that Zemina Torval may have with Zachary Hudson I know they condemn 5th column activities as much as everybody else. I also know that despite the potential grudge that Archon Delaine may have with ALD they would not destroy Zemina Torval in the process. I would not mind for spokespeople of Felicia Winters to address this event and whether or not they are prepared to use 5th columning-tactics in the way they do things. Using 5th-column tactics to abuse one power to strike against two others in a war is a low blow I know most players in the powerplay community find disgusting and an offense against us all.
For me, the extra work, stress and even sleep-loss caused by the preparation-effort to defeat ignorant Bridi-grinders was almost too much. To have it all blasted with ease by possibly a single or a few pilot within 2-3 hours thanks to the broken preparation system is the nail in the coffin for me. I will no longer allow an uncontrollable, broken game system that haven't been updated for months control my life anymore. Neither do I want to feel any responsibility for things I cannot control.
"
For myself. I actually quit before reading what he wrote. You can forget about Horisons if this isn't fixed in the next patch. Bye, Bye.
 
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I'm in two minds over the 5th column. One the one hand it is clearly annoying when you put together a great plan, communicate it and get people on side, only to have it ruined by factors outside of your control.

On the other hand it is not unrealistic. All powers would have intelligence agencies and operatives that do spying and black ops work. This could be said to be adding to the social game play.

Ultimately I think the flaw lays with Power Play being a rather odd game overlay that is just a lot of grinding in one form or another. It is clear F-DEV spent a great deal of time and effort on Power Play, but I think they went with the wrong thing altogether (of course, I am not a games designer. Also despite this I enjoy it and take part). If the PP powers where intrinsically linked to the underlying systems flipping mechanics I think it would be far better, with some form of mechanics of getting individual system factions to pledge to a PP power, or indeed to switch.

This would be a far more 'slow burn' method, but I think would be far more realistic and fulfilling.
 
What happened to these changes Sandro posted about Power Play? Guess we can count on those after Horizons, if at all?
 
Note that "I am about to resign at least some of my duties" doesn't mean "I quit". Besides that, thanks for reposting here. I was planning to do it. :)
 
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I'm sorry to hear that the frustrations are causing issues like this. Having dedicated people working for their respective power adds to the game for all of us. Please don't get too discouraged. I don't have a solution. Wish I did.
 
I'm in two minds over the 5th column. One the one hand it is clearly annoying when you put together a great plan, communicate it and get people on side, only to have it ruined by factors outside of your control.

On the other hand it is not unrealistic. All powers would have intelligence agencies and operatives that do spying and black ops work. This could be said to be adding to the social game play.

Ultimately I think the flaw lays with Power Play being a rather odd game overlay that is just a lot of grinding in one form or another. It is clear F-DEV spent a great deal of time and effort on Power Play, but I think they went with the wrong thing altogether (of course, I am not a games designer. Also despite this I enjoy it and take part). If the PP powers where intrinsically linked to the underlying systems flipping mechanics I think it would be far better, with some form of mechanics of getting individual system factions to pledge to a PP power, or indeed to switch.

This would be a far more 'slow burn' method, but I think would be far more realistic and fulfilling.

The problem I have with your thoughts on this is it is unrealistic in the fact it is to easy in this game to 5th column and not be caught. If you could catch them in the act and thereby execute them as spies then this would be realistic and fair. You can do any of the 5th column action and never be seen and makes it harder to stop if you stockpile your merits till the last few minutes then turn them in. Hell even if you know they are prepping a bad system you cannot go there to find and stop them as the game gives you a foolproof way to do is unhindered by other people. PP was a mistake to add to a game like this when there is such a separation of the playerbase. That is why I gave up on PP long ago except for getting the special gear I want that 3 powers offer. I got 2 weeks to get my 2nd piece then 1 more power to get the last I want then I can leave PP for the broken mechanic it is
 
I wonder...

Did it occur to anyone that this may be due simply to the players pledged to whomever that do NOT use the forums or Reddit and have no care or concern about YOUR game plans in THEIR game?

Or did you just automatically assume that anyone and everyone doing Power Play answers to the groups trying to run it and that this MUST be something malicious and foul? Because that certainly seems to be the attitude I'm getting from the post and from others who do PP that complain about 5th column. Seems no one takes into consideration that only a small percentage of the players give a rat's furry rear end about your plans and goals for your faction and are instead just interested in how much salary they can make each week, so they do whatever they can that's quick and easy to further that.

I did that when I first got into Power Play, and I'm someone who uses the forums, but honestly I could give a damn about your plans and strategies for the most part, they have no interest to me. While I was still active in PP, something I ceased to do in Sept, I did pay attention to where the folks running the ALD PP wanted things done, I even followed those orders sometimes, if it suited my own designs, but not always because I didn't always agree with their plans. And I'm far from a singular event, there will be far more players doing PP who pay NO attention to your carefully laid plans and have no idea about your spreadsheets, than DO give a damn and follow them as if they mattered.

From the statements Jemy and Gorilla made here, I'd seriously suggest you take a break from PP, it seems to be consuming you in negative ways, this is a GAME after all. Sleepless nights because you can't stop flying around or shooting stuff in a video game is one thing, but sleepless nights because you've got to update yet another spreadsheet? Seriously, get away from PP for a bit, go explore the galaxy, kill some pirates, pirate some traders, mine, SOMETHING other than PP, remind yourself WHY you enjoy this game in the first place, before you let this ruin the overall game for you. Take it from someone who's been there, I used to do these things for another game a long time ago, step away before it's too late, please guys.
 
I wonder...

Did it occur to anyone that this may be due simply to the players pledged to whomever that do NOT use the forums or Reddit and have no care or concern about YOUR game plans in THEIR game?

Or did you just automatically assume that anyone and everyone doing Power Play answers to the groups trying to run it and that this MUST be something malicious and foul? Because that certainly seems to be the attitude I'm getting from the post and from others who do PP that complain about 5th column. Seems no one takes into consideration that only a small percentage of the players give a rat's furry rear end about your plans and goals for your faction and are instead just interested in how much salary they can make each week, so they do whatever they can that's quick and easy to further that.

I did that when I first got into Power Play, and I'm someone who uses the forums, but honestly I could give a damn about your plans and strategies for the most part, they have no interest to me. While I was still active in PP, something I ceased to do in Sept, I did pay attention to where the folks running the ALD PP wanted things done, I even followed those orders sometimes, if it suited my own designs, but not always because I didn't always agree with their plans. And I'm far from a singular event, there will be far more players doing PP who pay NO attention to your carefully laid plans and have no idea about your spreadsheets, than DO give a damn and follow them as if they mattered.

From the statements Jemy and Gorilla made here, I'd seriously suggest you take a break from PP, it seems to be consuming you in negative ways, this is a GAME after all. Sleepless nights because you can't stop flying around or shooting stuff in a video game is one thing, but sleepless nights because you've got to update yet another spreadsheet? Seriously, get away from PP for a bit, go explore the galaxy, kill some pirates, pirate some traders, mine, SOMETHING other than PP, remind yourself WHY you enjoy this game in the first place, before you let this ruin the overall game for you. Take it from someone who's been there, I used to do these things for another game a long time ago, step away before it's too late, please guys.

You have a point, but only up to a point. I can see those who don't go to the reddit site doing things that interfere with loyal players, but when all of the merits that affect a single item are turned in a few minutes before the cycle ends, something else is going on. That's what was happening here.
 
I wonder...

Did it occur to anyone that this may be due simply to the players pledged to whomever that do NOT use the forums or Reddit and have no care or concern about YOUR game plans in THEIR game?

you should have read what jemy had to say before writing anything. This was not the case.
 
The problem I have with your thoughts on this is it is unrealistic in the fact it is to easy in this game to 5th column and not be caught. If you could catch them in the act and thereby execute them as spies then this would be realistic and fair. You can do any of the 5th column action and never be seen and makes it harder to stop if you stockpile your merits till the last few minutes then turn them in. Hell even if you know they are prepping a bad system you cannot go there to find and stop them as the game gives you a foolproof way to do is unhindered by other people. PP was a mistake to add to a game like this when there is such a separation of the playerbase. That is why I gave up on PP long ago except for getting the special gear I want that 3 powers offer. I got 2 weeks to get my 2nd piece then 1 more power to get the last I want then I can leave PP for the broken mechanic it is

Of course the issue is compounded by the majority of PP actions taking place in solo or private groups. I'm not saying that should not be allowed, only that is it part of the problem.

If you said I had to choose between a system that somehow prevented 5th column actions, and what we have now, and that was all I could pick, I think I would go with the former right now.
 
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For many weeks, we have read a lot on the forum about 5th column activity.
But have we ever read anything in an official Dev updates? Nope.
What have we heard so far from FD? "It is working as intended".

In a sense FD is right: you may counter 5th column activity by putting more preps on other systems of the list. Or you could infiltrate another Power, and prepare a system to ensure your initial Power does not win it. Besides, infiltrating and bringing corruption from within is a reality in the real life...hard to argue with that.

Have you heard of sniping at the last moment some merits for undermining a Power? Similar flavor as 5th column activity, right? And we did not hear anything until ALD got affected.... It's no secret that FD favors ALD, right?

What would happen if a lot of players would then defect to ALD in the sole purpose to bring the worst systems on their preparation list, each cycle?
I can't type that I would encourage any players to do that...but if this is the only way to get FD take appropriate actions, I'd rather see that happen than seeing these players simply quitting power play out of frustration...

The problem itself may be the only solution here.
 
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You have a point, but only up to a point. I can see those who don't go to the reddit site doing things that interfere with loyal players, but when all of the merits that affect a single item are turned in a few minutes before the cycle ends, something else is going on. That's what was happening here.

you should have read what jemy had to say before writing anything. This was not the case.

How do you know? Serious question, how do you KNOW this is what is indeed happening and not just supposition?

I did PP, ALD aligned, and I didn't pay any attention to the PP section of the forums for the first few weeks and I never, EVER looked at the reddit for ALD at all. I was doing exactly what you claim are 5th column actions, had nothing to do with that, it was simply how I did it due to when I can play during the week, build up my merits and turn em all in right before the counting takes place. I'm sure many of you saw some of my actions and were screaming and yelling about 5th column even though that wasn't even remotely applicable.

Out of all the people doing PP, how many do you think actually bother to read your orders? I'll give you some hard facts established by the industry years ago and still found to be fully applicable today. 10% of the playerbase of any given game uses that game's forums or any of the community sites associated with that game. It's actually less for Elite Dangerous btw, the amount of registered users on the FD forums don't equal 10% of the sales, and that's the ENTIRE FD forum which includes their other games, not just Elite Dangerous. You guys account for a very small percentage of the people doing PP, you do not actually control the people in your own faction, they do whatever they feel like and if that happens to be counter to what you want done, they don't care.

As I said, my own way of doing PP would lead you to conclude I was a 5th column, but I wasn't, I just didn't give a damn about the orders of people I neither nor nor care about in something in the game that has literally no meaning to anything in the game besides grinding for credits and getting some toys. I did read what the ALD 'high command' said must be done, but I didn't care, I did what I wanted to do. So what if this system is fortified to such an extent that it's safe, I'll keep on fortifying it because it's CONVENIENT for me to do so, that's it, nothing else, it's convenient. I was grinding for my rank salary, that's all, so whatever some silly sod somewhere said needed to be done, so what? I got my merits to earn my salary, did it the quickest and most convenient way I could, because MY actions in PP mean nothing, YOUR actions in PP mean nothing, simply because NO ONE can control everyone doing PP and therefore you can't actually DO jack but grind your merits for your salary. That's why I left ALD and PP totally after a few months of trying it, all the conclusions I'd read before I started were totally correct, it's a grind fest for creds and some toys and that's it.

You guys spend hours and hours doing your spreadsheets and plotting and planning and what does it get you? Sleepless nights, headaches, ulcers, frustration, all because you somehow think what you are doing matters, despite the constant evidence shoved down your throats that it doesn't. You see plots and spies and people working secretly against you instead of simply acknowledging the reality, that being, you have no control over PP and your efforts are pointless if making creds isn't your sole objective because 90% of the people IN YOUR OWN FACTION ARE ONLY OUT TO MAKE CREDS AND THEY DON'T FOLLOW YOUR PLANS OR ORDERS AT ALL!

The BGS isn't working at all as it should, PP is just a grind fest for creds, and you guys are losing sleep over this stuff and blaming unknown bad guys for your plans failing....

Take a break from PP, remember this is JUST a video game, and the systems you are trying to manipulate, you can't, they don't properly in the first place and there's 9 people for each of you who are NOT doing what you want them to in your own faction, often working totally against you simply because what you want isn't convenient for them, that's it, no malice, no rancor, just pure apathy, they don't care, they are just grinding their merits for their salary.
 
How do you know? Serious question, how do you KNOW this is what is indeed happening and not just supposition?
< ...and then lots and lots of words and stuff that I didn't read. >

Because it's obvious. If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, why are you saying it's a banana?
 
Lots of words basically telling people they are working too hard and barking at shadows.

I feel compelled to point out a couple things.

1) Most of us don't consider "Overfortifying" a 5th column action. There is no malicious intent. These actions are done out of Laziness, Ignorance, or plain selfishness. Nothing more, nothing less.
2) I think most of us also acknowledge that all bad preps are not always a 5th column act. They can also be done out of ignorance of how the system works
3) Credits dropped on a couple bad preps in the LAST HOUR is suspicious enough to consider a 5th column act. Especially if the system in question would never have any hopes of drawing a profit and serves no strategic purpose.
4) There are enough trolls in the game that would do this type of thing not for gain in their power, but for lolz because "it's only a game" while they point and laugh.

Me? I know that Power Play affects nothing. I'm in it an extra reward. What happens here means nothing in the next game I play 5 years from now. But... that being said - I at least have the courtesy of trying to work with those who understand the system better than I do. But I suppose Empathy is not everybody's strong suit.
 
Because it's obvious. If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, why are you saying it's a banana?

At this point I would like to say that Banana's are in no way involved in such behaviour.
We fortify systems and kill Pirates...and by "we" I mean me...since Fat Mike had an accident a good few months ago.
May his skin forever remain golden.

On topic:
There have been deliberate attempts to promote loss making systems to the top of preparation lists of quite a few powers. Hudson suffers from this occasionally as well.

And as others have mentioned, it becomes all the more apparent when it's done at the end of each cycle and it can't be countered.
FD are aware of "sniping" so hopefully they'll continue to monitor the situation because it is soul destroying for those who put a large amount of time into making PP what it is.
A reasonable method of countering it would be great. Something like you have your prep list after nominations. Then a player vote on which to push through and which to reject as it would allow the majority of the active players to have a say and not be dictated to by a small sub-set of players.
 
LOL! I was hoping you'd see that and come by. In fact, I used bananas as a reference in your honor. +1 :)

I am truly honoured. I thought I was only the entity th...that human adults told their children about just to scare the crap out of them because they'd been naughty.
I have returned the love accordingly.
:)
 
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I agree with some points of you, therefore I have as founder of the PZN placed this comment before they apply to become a member of our group
"Powerplay strategy team, (this team will do a weekly suggestion in this group of our goals. you as free Imperial can freely decide to follow this or do your own thing)"

And this on the reddit post when they are interested to apply for our group

"We keep fighting and defend our Zemina Torval till the last day have come, But keep it sane for yourself Elite Dangerous have allot more to offer then Powerplay. While it is great when you do fortify around 15-22K it is a insane amount when you would do it on the honest honorable way on longer term you don't help your power with it because you will become fedup and disband powerplay."

We can only do suggestions and be a guide with strategy for the ones that want this, when you keep this in mind and keep a healthy balance I mean with this "you don't let Powerplay dictate your life outside and in elite but keep a healthy mix"
I myself im not against 5th column when you look at ancient rome it was full of this and the Empire is build on that philosophy.


I wonder...

Did it occur to anyone that this may be due simply to the players pledged to whomever that do NOT use the forums or Reddit and have no care or concern about YOUR game plans in THEIR game?

Or did you just automatically assume that anyone and everyone doing Power Play answers to the groups trying to run it and that this MUST be something malicious and foul? Because that certainly seems to be the attitude I'm getting from the post and from others who do PP that complain about 5th column. Seems no one takes into consideration that only a small percentage of the players give a rat's furry rear end about your plans and goals for your faction and are instead just interested in how much salary they can make each week, so they do whatever they can that's quick and easy to further that.

I did that when I first got into Power Play, and I'm someone who uses the forums, but honestly I could give a damn about your plans and strategies for the most part, they have no interest to me. While I was still active in PP, something I ceased to do in Sept, I did pay attention to where the folks running the ALD PP wanted things done, I even followed those orders sometimes, if it suited my own designs, but not always because I didn't always agree with their plans. And I'm far from a singular event, there will be far more players doing PP who pay NO attention to your carefully laid plans and have no idea about your spreadsheets, than DO give a damn and follow them as if they mattered.

From the statements Jemy and Gorilla made here, I'd seriously suggest you take a break from PP, it seems to be consuming you in negative ways, this is a GAME after all. Sleepless nights because you can't stop flying around or shooting stuff in a video game is one thing, but sleepless nights because you've got to update yet another spreadsheet? Seriously, get away from PP for a bit, go explore the galaxy, kill some pirates, pirate some traders, mine, SOMETHING other than PP, remind yourself WHY you enjoy this game in the first place, before you let this ruin the overall game for you. Take it from someone who's been there, I used to do these things for another game a long time ago, step away before it's too late, please guys.
 
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Did it occur to anyone that this may be due simply to the players pledged to whomever that do NOT use the forums or Reddit and have no care or concern about YOUR game plans in THEIR game?
It is now the third cycle in a row that some players, pledged to Archon, push a specific system on top of the other ones. System with of course one of the worst profit we can find, very loss making if you take into account the overhead.

They started by putting over 8000 preps in the system...which has never been seen within Archon...we were used to put about 4000-5000 maximum.
Then, over 12000.
And currently, after only two days after the cycle started, around 6000 preps were already put...I have not checked the game yet but believe it is consistently growing.

What we are facing here is not an isolated player, but a well organized group of (not that many) players who focus on one specific target per cycle, in the sole purpose to weaken us progressively, and bring the Pegasi War to a win since they have never been able to do so using the regular (AKA fair) ways.

I actually don't despise them...I mean, that kind of strategy, infiltrating and bringing mess from the inside, is seen in movies and happens in real life. What saddens me is that nobody in Archon does anything but whining on the forum about that, while there are actually some solutions.
 
I like PP but, from what i have understood (i have been in rank 5 for 3 weeks now) there is absolutely no way to "control the 5C (i mean, you should change the basic of PP echanics to do so).

What i could suggest is:

1) PP merits earned only in open play (makes 5C less worth the risk) - N.B. i dont open play, so it is actually against my gameplay but could be a fix for the issue
2) have the Devs control the actions of the Power completely, letting the player just get merits and "defend" but without any choice on expansion
3) allow a Power to immediately "abandon" a system, to recover from CC loss
 
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