Overhauled fuel store

[AWACS_SkyKnight]

Currently there is an elaborate fuel store that serves no purpose when the normal fuel button exists. I suggest the addition of new fuel types to the game. I am not sure how this would be justified scientifically, but I would imagine it would be something along the lines of adding other elements to the standard hydrogen.

Fuel Types:
Standard: Hydrogen Fuel
Premium: Special fuel that reduces the consumption of the FSD by %30
Specialized: Explorer-oriented fuel that reduces the consumption of the FSD by %20, and only weighs half as much
“Dirty”: Combat-oriented fuel that doubles FSD consumption, but improves thruster performance
“Clean”: Smuggler-oriented fuel that reduces the thermal load of the thrusters
Pre-charge: Some stations have the necessary equipment to manually supercharge an FSD for a single jump, at a premium cost
Note: Only Standard hydrogen fuel can be fuel scooped. Like other services, special fuels will only be available at some stations and not others.

This will improve the following aspects of the game:
-Exploration
-Trade
-Combat and AX
-Fleet Carriers

Exploration
Recently, construction has begun on a number of stations between the bubble and Colonia to serve as rest stops. While they are very helpful, they don’t necessarily make the trip any faster. The purpose of these stations will be greatly expanded by the new fuel store. Buying special fuel while on the neutron highway will decrease travel time and make the trip truly feel like being on a highway

Trade
New fuels would offer traders a way to make their trade routes faster and more efficient. The ability to sell or gift fuel to other players via transfer limpets could promote interaction. “Clean” fuel will make ships harder to detect when transporting illegal goods/passengers into a station

Combat and AX
Thruster-enhancing fuel would offer bounty hunters and other commanders an additional boost to their maneuverability.

Fleet Carriers
Perhaps most importantly of all, fleet carriers will be greatly improved by being able to sell fuels. Not only will it open up new profits, but it will allow them to provide invaluable support. For CGs, they can bolster the support requested. For exploration, they can serve as their own mobile rest stops for specialized fuel. “Dirty” fuel can destroy the jump range of heavier combat ships, which invites Fleet Carriers to support them. This is especially important in AX, where commanders fight far from civilization and need all the maneuverability they can get

 

[Sensei Jacksama]

IRL we have varying levels of octane gasoline so I could see this being plausible from a lore perspective.

 

[Jmanis]

For the longest time, people have wanted Military Drives added to the game. In FE2/FFE, these exclusively used the (substantially) more expensive Military Fuel, which produced radioactive by-products, and Military Fuel could only be purchased from stations. The benefit of Military Drives is they were about half the size of a standard drive, which basically meant you could fit one-size up of FSD... but Military Drives only came in up-to Class 4 size. The difference here being a Cobra III could go 12 LY with a Class 2 drive, and 27LY with a Class 3... but the only feasible way to fit a C3 was as a Military Drive.

Those mechanics don't necessarily translate well, but a functional equivalent would be simply making a Military FSD have double the jump range, but again, refuelling is exclusively only available at stations. That way you can get viable "penetrator" builds, instead of leaning on the crutch of ship transfers. The radioactive by-product also doesn't translate well, since refuelling in that was from cargo, not from stations, so you needed cargo space to hold fuel.... it would take a substantial overhaul of fueling mechanics to accomodate that, though it is plausible, and frankly, I think would be

I don't necessarily agree with some of your suggestions e.g "premium" would simply become the new "normal", since FSD range is limited by fuel consumption limits, not range limits. 30% reduction to consumption is a flat and substantial boost to range, and would make synthesis/FSD charging either useless (if it didn't stack) or overpowered (if it did). But the general concept of different fuels for different roles such as exploration, trade etc. is a good one. Things like module damage as a trade-off for some fuel use (maybe to supplant the radioactive waste mechanic), and I do like the suggestions around heat mechanics. Travel around populated areas or, as you suggest, the Colonia Highway, should preferably be expedited, in absence of any mechanics which are particularly time sensitive[1]

Regardless, the only "scoopable" fuel should remain as the standard hydrogen fuel we have today.

With fuel prices almost completely inconsequential and the fuel store over-complicated for what is a one-click function... the only time I've ever seen the fuel game matter is when people are trying to do complex, long-range one-off jumps, so it's in dire need of an overhaul

[1] Passengers are the only time I've ever seen time matter.

 

[metatheurgist]

Originally there was going to be different fuel types, because the fuels costs for different ships varied. But they wound it back so I'm not seeing much future for the suggestion.

 

[Lugh]

Did you even try to work out what your numbers meant?

With premium you suggested a dbx could easily get over 90ly

Your exploration fuel? Over 170ly.

Just how much are you planning to have this cost?

 

[AWACS_SkyKnight]

Did you even try to work out what your numbers meant?

With premium you suggested a dbx could easily get over 90ly

Your exploration fuel? Over 170ly.

Just how much are you planning to have this cost?

Premium would not affect jump range. It would only affect how much fuel the FSD needs per jump. It’s meant for trade or combat ships without a fuel scoop, allowing them to travel farther without refueling. As far as explorers are concerned the only thing it does for them is make it so they won’t have to worry about scooping for a few jumps

Exploration-oriented fuel is the only one with an increase to jump range. It would allow explorers with a fully kitted ship to have jump ranges similar to their one-jump-build counterparts

The intention being that the fuel is “thicker” and you get the same jump range with less fuel, though your FSD wouldn’t be able to handle as much premium as it does standard. If the FSD ate the fuel regardless the jump range would be insane, as you have pointed out. In fact, it wouldn’t hurt to change how that works, seeing how it’s a little strange with how the FSD works

 

[Jmanis]

Premium would not affect jump range. It would only affect how much fuel the FSD needs per jump.

This would affect jump range though... FSDs aren't hard range-limited. They're soft-range limited by the maximum amount of fuel they can consume in a single jump.

You can observe this if you plot a jump beyond your current jump range; the error isn't that you're going past your FSD range... it's that the plotted jump consumes more than the max fuel per jump.

It's a subtle but really important difference, and why, say, engineering the FSD for "Increased Range" doesn't, well, "Increase the range", rather, it increases the optimal mass. Better optimal mass = same amount of fuel can push you further.

Incidentally, if we really did just go "OK, well using premium fuel simply reduces the max amount of fuel consumed per jump." then you'd actually reduce jump range, which I'm pretty sure isn't the intent here. I get what you're trying to do, but mechanically, that's not how it works. It's like firing a gun... you can't just "fire less bullets" when you pull the trigger.

EDIT: I missed this bit sorry

The intention being that the fuel is “thicker” and you get the same jump range with less fuel, though your FSD wouldn’t be able to handle as much premium as it does standard. If the FSD ate the fuel regardless the jump range would be insane, as you have pointed out. In fact, it wouldn’t hurt to change how that works, seeing how it’s a little strange with how the FSD works

I still think this would cause some issues at least mechanically... you could do it by reducing max FSD fuel consumption and increasing optimal mass, I guess? I don't know if that could knock-on to other issues though... jump range is not linear to fuel consumption, so you might end up with wacky numbers, and it's going to vary ship to ship.

 

[DemiserofD]

This would affect jump range though... FSDs aren't hard range-limited. They're soft-range limited by the maximum amount of fuel they can consume in a single jump.

You can observe this if you plot a jump beyond your current jump range; the error isn't that you're going past your FSD range... it's that the plotted jump consumes more than the max fuel per jump.

View attachment 286460

It's a subtle but really important difference, and why, say, engineering the FSD for "Increased Range" doesn't, well, "Increase the range", rather, it increases the optimal mass. Better optimal mass = same amount of fuel can push you further.

Incidentally, if we really did just go "OK, well using premium fuel simply reduces the max amount of fuel consumed per jump." then you'd actually reduce jump range, which I'm pretty sure isn't the intent here. I get what you're trying to do, but mechanically, that's not how it works. It's like firing a gun... you can't just "fire less bullets" when you pull the trigger.

It's not that hard. You do everything exactly like normal, but refund 30% of the fuel after the jump takes place.

 

[Jmanis]

It's not that hard. You do everything exactly like normal, but refund 30% of the fuel after the jump takes place.

Wouldn't work. You would need 100% of the fuel to plot the jump then, meaning you couldn't plot a jump you would otherwise be able to make with that much fuel.

 

[Lugh]

Premium would not affect jump range. It would only affect how much fuel the FSD needs per jump. It’s meant for trade or combat ships without a fuel scoop, allowing them to travel farther without refueling. As far as explorers are concerned the only thing it does for them is make it so they won’t have to worry about scooping for a few jumps

Exploration-oriented fuel is the only one with an increase to jump range. It would allow explorers with a fully kitted ship to have jump ranges similar to their one-jump-build counterparts

The intention being that the fuel is “thicker” and you get the same jump range with less fuel, though your FSD wouldn’t be able to handle as much premium as it does standard. If the FSD ate the fuel regardless the jump range would be insane, as you have pointed out. In fact, it wouldn’t hurt to change how that works, seeing how it’s a little strange with how the FSD works

In all honestly all this does is exaggerated the power creep engineering already added. Hell most of what you want is already covered by engineering to begin with

 

[DemiserofD]

Wouldn't work. You would need 100% of the fuel to plot the jump then, meaning you couldn't plot a jump you would otherwise be able to make with that much fuel.

What?

 

[Jmanis]

What?

You said "Refund 30% of the fuel after the jump takes place".

The problem with that is, let's say a jump would normally consume 8t of fuel. "Premium" fuel would make that, say, 5.5t (to keep numbers easy). If you had 7t of premium fuel, you couldn't make that jump since you'd need 8t to make the jump before you get the refunded fuel, even though the net result is consuming only 5.5t of fuel.

Unless you reduce the amount of fuel consumed before jump, which is the whole problem. FSDs aren't limited by range, they're limited by fuel consumption per jump.

Going back to the gun analogy, you can't fire 40 bullets when you only have 30, but can (somehow) get 10 back after finishing firing. Or alternately, you can't buy a $100 product which comes with a $10 cashback rebate, for $90.

 

[DemiserofD]

You said "Refund 30% of the fuel after the jump takes place".

The problem with that is, let's say a jump would normally consume 8t of fuel. "Premium" fuel would make that, say, 5.5t (to keep numbers easy). If you had 7t of premium fuel, you couldn't make that jump since you'd need 8t to make the jump before you get the refunded fuel, even though the net result is consuming only 5.5t of fuel.

Unless you reduce the amount of fuel consumed before jump, which is the whole problem. FSDs aren't limited by range, they're limited by fuel consumption per jump.

Going back to the gun analogy, you can't fire 40 bullets when you only have 30, but can (somehow) get 10 back after finishing firing. Or alternately, you can't buy a $100 product which comes with a $10 cashback rebate, for $90.

Why is that a problem? You can't make an 8t jump with 7t of fuel, that's just common sense.

But you could make a 7t jump, and on arrival, still have 30% of your fuel left.

 

[Lugh]

Why is that a problem? You can't make an 8t jump with 7t of fuel, that's just common sense.

But you could make a 7t jump, and on arrival, still have 30% of your fuel left.

sooooo your jump drive needs the fuel it just doesn't use the fuel?

or you could just get the increased rage fsd effect drastically cutting you fuel consumption.

 

[Jmanis]

Why is that a problem? You can't make an 8t jump with 7t of fuel, that's just common sense.

But you could make a 7t jump, and on arrival, still have 30% of your fuel left.

So, I've just corrected my earlier post because I did miss a bit. It's workable, but is a lot more than just a flat 30% reduction.

To address your point though that's still a completely different thing to "reducing fuel consumption by 30%".

Let's say a jump consumes 10t of "standard" fuel.

Using your "premium" fuel, you'd require a minimum of 10t of fuel to get there, and then get 3t back.
Using "premium" which reduces consumption, that jump would require just a minimum 7t of fuel.

You'll end up with the same amount of fuel in the tank in both cases, but the mechanics, weight impacts and situations you can use the two fuels differ substantially.

But anyways... I corrected my response to the op above, so it's a bit of a moot point.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

“Dirty”: Combat-oriented fuel that doubles FSD consumption, but improves thruster performance

Power creep. I think we've had more than enough of this.

People would just run that fuel all the time for combat. FD would react by doubling the hitpoints on ships.

There has to be more serious trade offs than doubling FSD consumption, especially with fleet carriers and ship transfers being a thing.

Make it so that it significantly increases heat generation... but... oh, there is engineering which plays right in to that as well.

 

[AWACS_SkyKnight]

Premium would not affect jump range. It would only affect how much fuel the FSD needs per jump. It’s meant for trade or combat ships without a fuel scoop, allowing them to travel farther without refueling

Exploration-oriented fuel would allow explorers with a fully kitted ship to have jump ranges similar to their one-jump-build counterparts

 

[AWACS_SkyKnight]

I think a much easier solution would just be to rethink the Premium, Specialized fuels and their mechanics. Maybe a ton of Premium fuel is worth 1.25x as much as normal fuel. So if your fuel tank can carry 10 tons of fuel, you “fit” 12.5 fuel. The FSD would then pull from this number

Alternatively, the fuels could just affect optimal mass instead, with a focus on being lighter. It doesn’t matter what it is as long as there is one that improves exploration and is sold by the Colonia highway stations/ FCs. Another note: This feature would not be adding on to Engineers because it would be situation specific. Again, you wouldn’t just be able to grab any fuel you want at any station. It is intended to supplement activities like Exploration and Xeno Hunting, not a buff to ships

 

[coca_fr]

Interesting ideas.

“Dirty”: Combat-oriented fuel that doubles FSD consumption, but improves thruster performance
But that would damage a little bit your Thruster for each boost.