General Overhauling Engineering: A Family's Request for a Streamlined Upgrade System

It is interesting the ED does not impose actual ingame roadblocks to players. There are gates... which can be opened with relatively low skill. But unlike other RPG games I have played there are not actual gameplay roadblocks. Every time you want to get specialty engineering mats a cmdr does not need defeat a high level boss. And to obtain G5 engineering access there is no requirement to defeat a super-ultra-mega boss requiring a team of 5 players.

In many games this presents an actual roadblock for players.

In ED a cmdr can purchase and engineer a top tier ship through sheer perseverance if they desire. Dav's Hope and Robigo Runs. Grind all day and night and you can get ships and ranks. Or like everybody else progress while doing normal game activities.

It would be nice if there was bigger skill based short-cuts to engineering. One that can't be cheated with power leveling noobs.
 
I agree with your reframed statement though. Similar to other games I have played some players reach a roadblock preventing them from progressing further. IMO thats okay. If games were designed otherwise everybody would be wearing ultimate gear fighting the ultimate boss.

It is interesting the ED does not impose actual ingame roadblocks to players. There are gates... which can be opened with relatively low skill. But unlike other RPG games I have played there are not actual gameplay roadblocks.
Elite doesn't have roadblocks so the quitting points end up being places where the game is just too incomprehensible and/or grindy. (UI/QoL is also a big part of this).

Instead of beating the big boss, the achievement that made you better than 99% of the other cruise lines out there was that you managed to find enough pharmaceutical idolators and bothered to travel 5kLy to unlock Palin and G5 your dirty drives.

Not having those games roadblocks makes the game more accessible, but Elite throws it all away again with being unapproachable in other ways. It definitely can't afford to gate more players by requiting player skill at this point (thargoid war stuff being a good idea here). It's hard to fault them for not adding any more endgame content when they haven't added any (space) content at all for years.

It would be nice if there was bigger skill based short-cuts to engineering. One that can't be cheated with power leveling noobs.
I'd say the spire mission stuff fits in here, but uh... that awards space engineering mats for mostly on foot stuff.

Power leveling shouldn't really be a concern unless it becomes the main way to make progress in the game somehow.
 
But is it fun?

Fun is subjective. I certainly think randomized abstractions can be more fun than the alternative of purely formulaic results, especially when the detail needed to do justice to them is impractical to implement.

Almost no mainstream FPS games feature weapon malfunctions/gun jamming because it's not fun and gets in the way of the action. Taking away movement controls is a more harsh version of that.

Even the most mainstream FPS games have things like random/pseudo random projectile spread, and one doesn't have to go very deep into niche shooters to encounter jamming mechanisms or the like. I consider these effects part of the action, not an obstacle to it.

Elite does have weapon malfunctions/jamming, but only as a result of damage and I think that's the main reason seekers are banned in competitive PvP - they do massive module/hardpoint damage (with little skill required) and it ends up in a situation where the other player is still alive but can't shoot back and that's no fun.

Anything that causes module damage below 80% integrity has a chance of triggering malfunctions and most weapons are capable of damaging modules. And damage isn't the only way to induce malfunctions (there are special weapons and effects that can do this). Only the near omnipresence of strong shields makes it a minor issue, seekers or not.

Back when stealth and hybrid vessels were more viable and shields less of an absolute protection, it was expected that one know how to rotate one's critical externals away from sources of splash damage and know the internal layout of as many ships as possible in order to better protect one's internal modules while taking advantage of the openings presented by foes. Such considerations were also meaningful balancing factors between various ships...for example it's one of the reasons the FAS was/is worse than it looks on paper--it's distributor is exposed, it's cockpit is near the center of the nose, and you can't point any PDTs it may have at incoming munitions without exposing all of it's weapons to splash damage. Ultimately, if one wound up in a situation where they couldn't maneuver or shoot, they either screwed up (by not knowing their ship), or were simply overwhelmed. Things changed a bit as hull integrity outstripped module integrity and effective shield strength utterly dwarfed either.

Letting players build a ship that randomly breaks by default is bade design and while experienced players might be able to and might want to deal with it, for new players it'd be a worse trap choice than any of the currently existing choices that are just worse than the better choices but usually not worse than stock (stuff like lightweight hull reinforcements being the exception).

I can picture the conversation:
New Player: "What do you mean I spent 50 hours engineering my ship and now I died because it's worse because stuff randomly breaks"
Veteran: "lol nice self-own, noob"

Plenty of ignorant players have fully Engineered their stock E-rated modules without realizing that the base module matters; even more fail to properly budget power or manage power priorities; and back before they globally nerfed module damage from heat (as a bad fix for a bug that caused such damage to be multiplied by the number of CMDRs in an instance) a whole lot of CMDRs were melting their ships in combat. There are also countless bad Engineering modifications that are ultimately a waste of materials, yet are presented as viable upgrades.

Even before Engineering, players have always been able to build lemons. It's just a bit costlier now. Being able to make even more useless modules is not much of a downside, because the bad ones are getting sold back to the station anyway. I think my CMDR has fewer than one-in-five of the modules he's ever Engineered...the rest were depreciated by evolving game mechanisms or demographic shifts in the 'meta', or were purely educational experiments.

Anyway, ignorant players falling into traps is an argument for better documentation and better players, not purely inflationary options, IMO.

And what is new player friendly?

An accurate, up to date, 600-page paper manual and a copy of 'Hooked on Phonics' so public education victims have a shot at translating it.

I prefer a situation where every ship destruction is because I did something wrong, and I can learn from it. I find that I more-or-less have this in ED.

I'm confident this situation would remain even with a lot more risk and uncertainty, because of the caution they would prompt. The game currently incentivises a degree of recklessness I find rather incredible--in the worst and most literal sense of the term.

It is interesting the ED does not impose actual ingame roadblocks to players.

ED has a few. Some are technical, but others are quite deliberate. Among the deliberate ones permit locks and exclusion zones are prime examples.

Anyway, any hard roadblocks are out of place in most simulations (even if it's not reality that's being simulated) or any setting that values verisimilitude. Personally, I don't even like them in my traditional RPGs. Almost invariably I prefer organic constraints that can potentially be bypassed though gameplay. I make an exception for trading assets between players in persistent multiplayer games with poor supply constraints, as absurd as such limits are from an internal verisimilitude perspective.
 
Elite doesn't have roadblocks so the quitting points end up being places where the game is just too incomprehensible and/or grindy. (UI/QoL is also a big part of this).

Instead of beating the big boss, the achievement that made you better than 99% of the other cruise lines out there was that you managed to find enough pharmaceutical idolators and bothered to travel 5kLy to unlock Palin and G5 your dirty drives.

Not having those games roadblocks makes the game more accessible, but Elite throws it all away again with being unapproachable in other ways. It definitely can't afford to gate more players by requiting player skill at this point (thargoid war stuff being a good idea here). It's hard to fault them for not adding any more endgame content when they haven't added any (space) content at all for years.


I'd say the spire mission stuff fits in here, but uh... that awards space engineering mats for mostly on foot stuff.

Power leveling shouldn't really be a concern unless it becomes the main way to make progress in the game somehow.
ED sure has roadblocks. NPCs spawn with increased HP. Combat is "doable" but not fun without having improved weapons and I cannot be bothered to do engineering. I tried once and it was awful. Not wasting any more of my time on it. Welcome to the world of "live service" where your "save file" can get screwed over night with some ill-balanced new content.
 
ED sure has roadblocks. NPCs spawn with increased HP. Combat is "doable" but not fun without having improved weapons and I cannot be bothered to do engineering.
In gaming, typically the enemy becomes more difficult and the player must become more powerful. Or skilled. In many games this increase in difficulty does become a roadblock for further progression. Especially in classic linear path games. If a player isn't "good" they can't get past a certain point.

ED is most definitely not like that. ED is based around skill that can be circumvented using grindy perseverance. Any mediocre player can obtain a top tier ship and destroy an Elite NPC Anaconda. There is no roadblock to this. Only player choice on how they wish to play the game.
 
A rare Morbad post where I disagree... RNG is the devil, most games force-inject far too much of it, and it should only ever be used in carefully measured & heavily diluted amounts. Nothing sucks more than facing consequences of outcomes completely out of your hands.

RNG is a tool for abstraction and need not take outcomes out of the player's hands. Some degree of randomness is needed to depict statistically credible results if one is not willing or able to get bogged down simulating minutiae. Hell, even if we simulate everything to the logical extremes of our ability to, we eventually come down to quantum effects that can only be described in terms of probabilities. RNG is not only easier, it's often more accurate, than an incomplete simulation.

When it comes to gaming I can scarcely think of examples where RNG implies facing consequences one has no say in, outside of explicit games of chance (e.g. a slot machine). Even the old-school tabletop RPGs I play, that have three rules, each specifying at least one die roll, for almost everything, do not do this. The player invariably has many opportunities to skew the the odds in their character's favor, or to negate the need for a roll at all. People cry about things like saving throws or skill checks all the time...not realizing that such rolls are typically only called for if the player already screwed up in a major way.
 
ED has a few [roadblocks]. Some are technical, but others are quite deliberate. Among the deliberate ones permit locks and exclusion zones are prime examples.
What roadblocks exist in the game that prevent a mediocre player from obtaining a top tier ship and participating in combat, trade, or exploration?

As I mentioned above there are some gates that must be passed either through skill or perseverance.
 
In gaming, typically the enemy becomes more difficult and the player must become more powerful. Or skilled. In many games this increase in difficulty does become a roadblock for further progression. Especially in classic linear path games. If a player isn't "good" they can't get past a certain point.

ED is most definitely not like that. ED is based around skill that can be circumvented using grindy perseverance. Any mediocre player can obtain a top tier ship and destroy an Elite NPC Anaconda. There is no roadblock to this. Only player choice on how they wish to play the game.
Well, I can't. I have vanilla ships and elite enemies just take too long to kill.
 
Back
Top Bottom