Powerplay Faction: Denton Patreus Patreus strategy

[Rubberboots]

But maybe you will tell me your overheads are only 53.4cc per system and I'm making up some crazy 163cc number?

I think using 53.4 is the wrong way to look at your situation, but like you said, why would I want to help

You're factoring in in 47 Ceti's individual upkeep, but not its individual income, which we also gave up. This makes what you said technically true, but really misleading, since the whole purpose of talking about overheads is for calculating how much CC you'll have going forward. Factoring in the lost income, it was a net "gain" of 55--not 163--CC.

Your way of calculating also has the 'feature' of smoothing out the differences between systems in terms of how useful it would be to lose them. Losing LTT 9397 instead of 47 Ceti, would have meant shedding 162cc worth of overheads. Almost no difference! Of course, once its pitiful 44 income is factored in, the real figure is seen to be a net gain of 118 CC; the difference becomes obvious.

Your means of calculating, then provides no useful information, and only serves to confuse the issue. I guarantee this isn't the method you use for looking at systems when planning for Archon Delaine. So why offer it here as if it's helpful?

PP is a long game. The whole strategy is about optimizing your ratio of high value to low (or negative!) value systems. Measuring in terms of weekly CC gains/losses (and the weekly standing pats on the head that result) is so short-sighted as to be essentially blind. But you know all of this, because when talking strategy on your own forums, you bring all this nuance to bear.

So all I can do is to repeat my encouragement that people look at how you talk about systems and strategy over in the Archon forums and contrast it with the advice you're giving us here. Whether intentionally or not, you're giving terrible, short-sighted advice and justifying it with terrible arguments and bogus math that you would never use "back home."

 

[fergal]

You're factoring in in 47 Ceti's individual upkeep, but not its individual income, which we also gave up. This makes what you said technically true, but really misleading, since the whole purpose of talking about overheads is for calculating how much CC you'll have going forward. Factoring in the lost income, it was a net "gain" of 55--not 163--CC.

Your way of calculating also has the 'feature' of smoothing out the differences between systems in terms of how useful it would be to lose them. Losing LTT 9397 instead of 47 Ceti, would have meant shedding 162cc worth of overheads. Almost no difference! Of course, once its pitiful 44 income is factored in, the real figure is seen to be a net gain of 118 CC; the difference becomes obvious.

Your means of calculating, then provides no useful information, and only serves to confuse the issue. I guarantee this isn't the method you use for looking at systems when planning for Archon Delaine. So why offer it here as if it's helpful?


PP is a long game. The whole strategy is about optimizing your ratio of high value to low (or negative!) value systems. Measuring in terms of weekly CC gains/losses (and the weekly standing pats on the head that result) is so short-sighted as to be essentially blind. But you know all of this, because when talking strategy on your own forums, you bring all this nuance to bear.

So all I can do is to repeat my encouragement that people look at how you talk about systems and strategy over in the Archon forums and contrast it with the advice you're giving us here. Whether intentionally or not, you're giving terrible, short-sighted advice and justifying it with terrible arguments and bogus math that you would never use "back home."

LOL, I guarantee you what I have stated is the exact advice I follow myself and provide the Kumo Crew.
We look for systems that will increase our weekly starting CC balance, which is becoming impossible.

Once again though you twist what I have said in my posts.
47 Ceti was an anchor around your neck because of the 500000ls distance to its small station.
Its income is irrelevant.

Why are you trying to prepare a system with less income than 47 Ceti right now? Because you value a system you can actually fortify over one thats a waste of your players time.

What you have stated clears up quite a lot about your recent strategy, so thank you.
Please keep sticking with your fantasy overhead calculation, and look for systems with a profit over 54 (or use 62 if that makes you feel better) to expand to.


163 profit is the real number for you to look for, which of course doesn't really exist.

Heres a scenario for you to find more nefarious seeds I'm trying to plant in the 3 Patreus players who are reading this post.
You have a starting CC balance of 37.
You expand to Dheneb, which had a Profit of 72cc.

This puts your new weekly starting cc balance on -54

You can't make that calculation without using the real overhead figure increase of 186.

 

[Perseus]

We should only be dealing with reality. Every power would no doubt choose other systems within their territories to have as control centres. We all work with what we have.
Be under no illusions, loyal Patreus commanders, if we we attempted a controlled turmoil removal of Smei Tsu we would lose our presence in that sphere of space. We would be attacked by more than just the Kumo crew in the preperation week and we would lose, either because we would be critically undermined or out prepped as we attempted to counter the undermining.
Be patient and brace yourselves to the duty of fortifiying Smei Tsu. The trigger will change in the future. If you really can't bear to help there then feel no shame in doing other actions for Patreus. The only shameful action is trying to undermine the unity of the Patreus player base. I can't fault a Kumo pirate for attempting this but I have nothing but contempt for an apparent Patreus commander expending so much energy to cause dissent and destruction.

 

[Commander Starcloak]

I strongly suggest a cooldown on this thread for the time being. Discussions are beginning to be repeated and this is not productive to anyone's time.

 

[fergal]

The trigger will change in the future. If you really can't bear to help there then feel no shame in doing other actions for Patreus.

Hoping the trigger will change is a bit different to the non reasons given so far.
It might be wishful thinking since the triggers lowering seem quite buggy, but your Power seems to be one of the ones it does actually work for.

The only shameful action is trying to undermine the unity of the Patreus player base. I can't fault a Kumo pirate for attempting this but I have nothing but contempt for an apparent Patreus commander expending so much energy to cause dissent and destruction.

Sure, don't trust anything I've said because I've been undermining you (we weren't responsible for Smei Tsu being undermined this week ), but I still think its wrong to compeltely dismiss what one of your own is saying, particularly because I think he has an actual valid point.

It took more than 24 hours to go by before PICAURUKAN was listed on your reddit as a priority system to fortify.

All I've been saying is you have much bigger worries than Smei Tsu.

 

[Perseus]

Hoping the trigger will change is a bit different to the non reasons given so far.
It might be wishful thinking since the triggers lowering seem quite buggy, but your Power seems to be one of the ones it does actually work for.


Sure, don't trust anything I've said because I've been undermining you (we weren't responsible for Smei Tsu being undermined this week ), but I still think its wrong to compeltely dismiss what one of your own is saying, particularly because I think he has an actual valid point.

It took more than 24 hours to go by before PICAURUKAN was listed on your reddit as a priority system to fortify.

All I've been saying is you have much bigger worries than Smei Tsu.

We're not hoping it'll change, we know it will (save for bugs). This is just more subversion on your part. Despite the bugs, we have seen progress (and regression) with the BGS. The reasons given for current strategy are sound, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, your posts just seem to an attempt to muddy the waters as you introduce new concepts or speculations in response to any answers.

As for Wiwaldi, it's never been what he's saying but how and why he's been saying it. You would have us believe that you're contributing to this discussion in an attempt to help us! If we have bigger worries than Smei Tsu, why are you so eager to stick your nose into the Patreus Strategy thread and focus on it? Your altruism knows no bounds.
Start your own thread on the intricacies of PP strategy by all means. Trying to hijack ours by exploiting obvious dissent is hardly sporting, which leads to the conclusion that you are nothing here but an agent provocateur.

 

[fergal]

We're not hoping it'll change, we know it will (save for bugs). This is just more subversion on your part. Despite the bugs, we have seen progress (and regression) with the BGS. The reasons given for current strategy are sound, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, your posts just seem to an attempt to muddy the waters as you introduce new concepts or speculations in response to any answers.

You are hoping it will change, because its quite bugged.
We have 4 systems which should have had their fortification triggers halved. Bug reports have been made multiple times.
Nothing fixed for us in 26 weeks, so yes, I am doubtful that your triggers will change, but you do have some fortification triggers under 5000, so it has worked for you in the past.

What you are saying about trying to change the fortification triggers is agreeing with what I have said, in a round about way.
101 profit for 8000 tons of merits isn't good.
Not for your systems, not for any powers systems.
Add in a small pad and its really difficult to believe anyone who could disagree.

Now if the reason for putting up with the 8000 merits is that it will change to 4000, well thats a bit different.
4000 merits for 101 profit is quite a good system.
The small pad still makes it bad, but just on a profit to fortifying ratio there is an argument for Smei Tsu if its fortification trigger was halved.
If you can get it to work, halving many systems fortification triggers would make them better too.

As for Wiwaldi, it's never been what he's saying but how and why he's been saying it. You would have us believe that you're contributing to this discussion in an attempt to help us! If we have bigger worries than Smei Tsu, why are you so eager to stick your nose into the Patreus Strategy thread and focus on it? Your altruism knows no bounds.
Start your own thread on the intricacies of PP strategy by all means. Trying to hijack ours by exploiting obvious dissent is hardly sporting, which leads to the conclusion that you are nothing here but an agent provocateur.

I have similar discussions with players from all powers except for Aisling and Patreus.
I wasn't aware Patreus is such a closed club

I have nothing to hide, I just helped some Imperials fix their formula on their undermining spreadsheet, a spreadsheet that will undoubtedly be used against the Kumo Crew.

This isn't your official strategy thread, its a thread started by someone with an issue with your strategy, I have the same issue.
If you want the moderators to move this into the Delaine sub thread location that's fine with me.

 

[Perseus]

. . .I have similar discussions with players from all powers except for Aisling and Patreus.
I wasn't aware Patreus is such a closed club

I have nothing to hide, I just helped some Imperials fix their formula on their undermining spreadsheet, a spreadsheet that will undoubtedly be used against the Kumo Crew.

This isn't your official strategy thread, its a thread started by someone with an issue with your strategy, I have the same issue.
If you want the moderators to move this into the Delaine sub thread location that's fine with me.

You can post here to your hearts content. I'm merely indicating the likley motives.
This is my final post about this. I bear you absolutely no ill will, fergal, and I enjoy reading your opinions and analyses on both the wider game and PP. I respect you as both fellow gamer and accursed enemy.
But, I'm suspicious of your intent in this matter and I've aired my views.
Fly safe, Commander (not in our space, of course ).

 

[Eondragon]

Do not be scared children in Cycle 27 I will strengthen you Smei Tsu Advent Friday that is happened. So you see that it is possible to quickly and well! and your escuses not be held

 

[Rubberboots]

Do not be scared children in Cycle 27 I will strengthen you Smei Tsu Advent Friday that is happened. So you see that it is possible to quickly and well! and your escuses not be held

Who claimed it was impossible to fortify Smei Tsu by Friday? I can't tell who you are replying to here. :\

 

[Corrigendum]

It seems the Patreus strategy thread is straying from its intended purpose. This tiny corner of the Frontier forum has been carved out as a place for Patreus supporters to discuss all things Patreus.

However, as the discussion has progressed, it appears the voices of Patreus supporters are being drowned out by third-party voices. I would like to respectfully request that third-parties vacate this thread, as well as others in the "Denton Patreus" section of the forums.

There will likely be instances where third-parties will be invited to discuss particulars of various topics. In those instances I would propose that a separate discussion thread be spun off, thus allowing Patreus supporters (who may be currently withholding comments) to have the opportunity to get a word in edgewise in threads that are Patreus specific.

Thank you.

 

[fergal]

Hello Cmdrs,
I and a few others do not agree with the strategy of our selfpointed leaders that has led us into our current situation, . Everyone who wants to change this should not fortify Smei Tsu. It's a system that costs us a lot of time, which is missing elsewhere. Our self-appointed leaders hold only Smei Tsu, because it is in their personal interest. One of them is the leader of a group (Lorens Legion), which has its home system in Prism. The fortification of Smei Tsu has last cycle lasted 5 days. This was the time that we were lacking to combat Delain and which will be lacking in the future to fortify other systems. I am not a english nativ speaker and i am sure our selfpointed english native leaders will storm this post. Just build your own opinion by looking the facts.
Thx
Cmdr Wiwaldi

Here is this threads original post.

It isn't you "official" strategy thread, and if this was made in the general section I would think it would be moved into the Patreus sub category, since its discussing Patreus.

The FAQ doesn't state you need to be pledged to a power at all to be allowed to post in any of them.

The thread is about dissatisfaction with the priorities suggested on Patreus's reddit, by a player who has been banned on that reddit.

We wouldn't be on the 3rd Open vs Solo thread if different opinions are banned on the FDev forums.

 

[Rubberboots]

Here is this threads original post.

It isn't you "official" strategy thread, and if this was made in the general section I would think it would be moved into the Patreus sub category, since its discussing Patreus.

The FAQ doesn't state you need to be pledged to a power at all to be allowed to post in any of them.

Come on, Fergal. Nobody is suggesting you don't have the *right* to post here. Corrigendum asked that a thread started by a Patreus supporter, addressed to Patreus supporters, about Patreus strategy, not be dominated by the opinions of CMDRs from other factions. It's not an unreasonable request.

I'll not even bother addressing the insinuation that Wiwaldi was banned merely for having a "different opinon." You know that's not true.

 

[fergal]

Come on, Fergal. Nobody is suggesting you don't have the *right* to post here. Corrigendum asked that a thread started by a Patreus supporter, addressed to Patreus supporters, about Patreus strategy, not be dominated by the opinions of CMDRs from other factions. It's not an unreasonable request.

I'll not even bother addressing the insinuation that Wiwaldi was banned merely for having a "different opinon." You know that's not true.

Thats not how I read his post, maybe that what he meant, but its not dominated by 3rd parties, you can name me

"It seems the Patreus strategy thread is straying from its intended purpose."

Sounded to me like he thought this was your actual strategy thread, with your suggestions to the Patreus supporters.
I may post very occasionally in your real strategy thread, but I certainly wouldn't attempt to post, or carry on an argument, like I have in this one.

The only piece of information I will leave you with, which I admit is self serving to the Kumo Crew, but doesn't make it any less valid:

Any systems you lose on the border with the Kumo Crew (or Antal and Sirius for that matter) could still be taken back by winning a prep war, or blocking the expansion.

Any systems you lose on your border with Hudson is gone for good.

 

[Rubberboots]

"It seems the Patreus strategy thread is straying from its intended purpose."

Sounded to me like he thought this was your actual strategy thread, with your suggestions to the Patreus supporters.

He bolded "Patreus strategy"--including the inconsistent capitalization--because it was the title of the thread

The only piece of information I will leave you with, which I admit is self serving to the Kumo Crew, but doesn't make it any less valid:

Any systems you lose on the border with the Kumo Crew (or Antal and Sirius for that matter) could still be taken back by winning a prep war, or blocking the expansion.

Any systems you lose on your border with Hudson is gone for good.

You mean like Smei Tsu?

 

[Gusty]

Patreus Stragety is not something that decide some selfapoited leaders, or moederators, o how they are calling themselfs now "planning team".
They have nothing to decide. They are just Cmdrs like all of us. Its all of us Patreus pledgers that can make a strategy happens or not.
As for the argument, with Horizons we can land on planets and are not dependent on small stations, i dont think someone who dont buy Horizons will be forced to deliver to a small station, and somebody who pay for Horizons will be able to deliver to the planet. This would make Powerplay totaly absurd. The power with the most players that buy Horizons will win. Pay to win, it would be. Edit: who says planet landing will not have small and big pads ?

 

[Rudolphus]

I personal believe a power will benefit of different kind of views of strategy proposals,
so why do you not start on this forum your own weekly strategy proposal how you see that is the best, and then see of people are willing to do something with it.

Patreus Stragety is not something that decide some selfapoited leaders, or moederators, o how they are calling themselfs now "planning team".
They have nothing to decide. They are just Cmdrs like all of us. Its all of us Patreus pledgers that can make a strategy happens or not.
As for the argument, with Horizons we can land on planets and are not dependent on small stations, i dont think someone who dont buy Horizons will be forced to deliver to a small station, and somebody who pay for Horizons will be able to deliver to the planet. This would make Powerplay totaly absurd. The power with the most players that buy Horizons will win. Pay to win, it would be. Edit: who says planet landing will not have small and big pads ?

 

[Gusty]

What do you refer to a weekly strategy proposal ?
Somthing like from our planing team ? Every week the same priority list to fortify, so our enemies know exactly where they dont need to undermine ?
I think there is no need to tell ppl what to do. Most know exactly what they want to do.
If somebody has a good system for preparation or undermining he can post it.


Edit:
I would list our best 20 systems on the weekly objectivs goals for prep with the income when not fortifyed/not undermined, fortifyed/not undermined, fortifyed/undermined, not fortifyd/undermined.
If a system of this 20 gets fully undermined, i could be write in red. Listing the actuall undermining trigger would be usefull too.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I'd just like to remind people to stay frosty and keep things nice around here.

Dissenting views should be welcome as long as they are on-topic and constructive.

Cheers.

 

[Gusty]

Thats not how I read his post, maybe that what he meant, but its not dominated by 3rd parties, you can name me

"It seems the Patreus strategy thread is straying from its intended purpose."

Sounded to me like he thought this was your actual strategy thread, with your suggestions to the Patreus supporters.
I may post very occasionally in your real strategy thread, but I certainly wouldn't attempt to post, or carry on an argument, like I have in this one.

The only piece of information I will leave you with, which I admit is self serving to the Kumo Crew, but doesn't make it any less valid:

Any systems you lose on the border with the Kumo Crew (or Antal and Sirius for that matter) could still be taken back by winning a prep war, or blocking the expansion.

Any systems you lose on your border with Hudson is gone for good.

Hi Fergal,
i think this is Patreus official and independent stragedy thread, because it is not dominated by interests of minor Patreus groups. And i think, and hope, you cant be banned here for posting and staying behind your opinion in the way you do it. I am sure, if you would post another opinion about Smei Tsu than me, the critism would not come where it comes from now.