Piracy : include data-mining limpets

But exactly how many? I still maintain its not as large as people think it is. However, the amount of people doing data missions for factions I'd bet is much, much more. The further out you go, the lower the chances of seeing other people until its near zero.

And frankly, the idea (i.e. data as cargo) has many merits, the most basic being that you actually have to think where you go. There are many, many fringe systems that see exactly no traffic. And if you want to use the data for BGS work, well, game on since its now being weaponised.

And I find it amusing that for some reason data piracy is now considered griefing too, even when its legitimate. "Stupidity punishing" is simply making players actually have to think about what they do, unlike now where its mind numbingly basic.

I think the number of dedicated explorers (most of whom probably never even visit the forums) is far larger than the number of players that actively engage in BGS activities.

The basic idea of data as cargo is fine, sure, but not if it means scrubbing invested player time and effort - and handing other players the tools to do that. There's been an excess of that in the game already throughout its history.

I really don't think the reason fringe systems are rarely visited, is owing to players being unable to steal each other's exploration data, and I don't think that is something that would see improvement (if you can call it an improvement at all) by implementing that.

I find it ironic that is what you find 'amusing', while using the exact same justification used by so many self-acknowledged griefers from over the years - that of 'just' providing 'natural consequences' to players that 'should' know better and 'simply have to think'. How many times has that same argument been put forth, both on these forums and reddit, just for this game alone (let alone other games that enable similar actions)? What is the value in emphasizing a game experience revolving around punishing one another? That's not even what competition is supposed to be about in the first place.
 
Hence steal, not copy.
I don't think stealing (not copying) data makes much ingame logic. To steal data suggests removing a physical device from an opponents ship. This seams very unlikely. Yes I know limpets steal cargo but (a) cargo is presumably physically located within easy acess of the cargo hatch (b) it is a very random selected piece of cargo.

Edit: Instead of stealing physical data storage device, if a limpet is capable of "copying then deleting" selective data from a ship... why not just use the limpet to disable the entire ship? Shutdown life support. Let the pilot die. Steal the ship.
 
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I think the number of dedicated explorers (most of whom probably never even visit the forums) is far larger than the number of players that actively engage in BGS activities.

The basic idea of data as cargo is fine, sure, but not if it means scrubbing invested player time and effort - and handing other players the tools to do that. There's been an excess of that in the game already throughout its history.

I really don't think the reason fringe systems are rarely visited, is owing to players being unable to steal each other's exploration data, and I don't think that is something that would see improvement (if you can call it an improvement at all) by implementing that.

I find it ironic that is what you find 'amusing', while using the exact same justification used by so many self-acknowledged griefers from over the years - that of 'just' providing 'natural consequences' to players that 'should' know better and 'simply have to think'. How many times has that same argument been put forth, both on these forums and reddit, just for this game alone (let alone other games that enable similar actions)? What is the value in emphasizing a game experience revolving around punishing one another? That's not even what competition is supposed to be about in the first place.
Because it is amusing- for some arcane reason explorers seem to want to be apart from everyone...well, they can't (or should not) from either NPCs or players when carrying potentially hundreds (even billions) of credits of data.

The 'amusement' comes from that from a tiny amount of forward planning anyone coming back from a trip in a tinfoil ship can be entirely safe...that is if they plan. Its even easier these days with FCs too- either yours or someone elses.

I also don't see the logic of railing against the idea when people get blown up anyway- what makes stealing data worse than that? :unsure:

I think the number of dedicated explorers (most of whom probably never even visit the forums) is far larger than the number of players that actively engage in BGS activities.
I think the number of people who take on basic data missions for cash far outnumbers them- you don't have to be mega BGS aligned and you already have pirates wanting to stop you- this simply provides better context and another reason to do it.

a game experience revolving around punishing one another
'Punishment' is a funny word to use, when everyone in Open supposedly can do what they like. Maybe people need to fly properly and equip better?

That's not even what competition is supposed to be about in the first place.
? There are no rules other than you land in one peice or get blown up along the way. There is no 'competition' other than to achieve your goals.
 
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Because it is amusing- for some arcane reason explorers seem to want to be apart from everyone...well, they can't (or should not) from either NPCs or players when carrying potentially hundreds (even billions) of credits of data.

Would you prefer for exploration data to not be worth as much, to have less of an influence over BGS things?

The 'amusement' comes from that from a tiny amount of forward planning anyone coming back from a trip in a tinfoil ship can be entirely safe...that is if they plan. Its even easier these days with FCs too- either yours or someone elses.

I also don't see the logic of railing against the idea when people get blown up anyway- what makes stealing data worse than that? :unsure:

Well, this idea surely won't help people get blown up less.

I think the number of people who take on basic data missions for cash far outnumbers them- you don't have to be mega BGS aligned and you already have pirates wanting to stop you- this simply provides better context and another reason to do it.

I don't see that as equivalent. Courier missions are local and rapid, they don't represent months to years even of invested time and effort to make a mark on the galaxy. And I don't think most explorers are concerned with BGS activities. Those that do use exploration data to manipulate the BGS resort to R2R, unless they're a super dedicated neutron star field finder. I view that as an issue with the way exploration rewards are weighted.

'Punishment' is a funny word to use, when everyone in Open supposedly can do what they like. Maybe people need to fly properly and equip better?

And that's a good reason to screw with another player's enjoyment of the game? I can't agree. The game does not offer, on the surface, an official PvE mode to experience the game with other players without that aspect, so presuming everyone that ventures into open is implied to be signing up for that kind of engagement is not fair. Of course...this has been discussed to death and back a few times already.

? There are no rules other than you land in one peice or get blown up along the way. There is no 'competition' other than to achieve your goals.

That's a competition of survival, then. The point is to do with emphasizing a game experience revolving around punishing one another, which I do not view as a good thing and far too many games have made their sole focus as it is.
 
Would you prefer for exploration data to not be worth as much, to have less of an influence over BGS things?
Personally I'd want data to be broken down into more discrete chunks, so you'd have cartographic data which is worth money but low BGS value, and things like tactical scans that would- but that requires a wholesale rethink and realistically lowering datas BGS influence would be the easiest solution, considering the BGS IMO has too many ways to boost it positively.

Well, this idea surely won't help people get blown up less.
Well, every second you remain alive is a chance to escape. If someone wants your stuff its on them to keep you alive- if you can hack a ship while its in motion (i.e. its functional) blowing them up serves no purpose in this case.

I don't see that as equivalent. Courier missions are local and rapid, they don't represent months to years even of invested time and effort to make a mark on the galaxy. And I don't think most explorers are concerned with BGS activities. Those that do use exploration data to manipulate the BGS resort to R2R, unless they're a super dedicated neutron star field finder. I view that as an issue with the way exploration rewards are weighted.
To me data is data, its a matter of scale. At the low end you have fast data that could become the new way to pirate, at the top end you have rare 'mother lode' situations with explorers.

If you are carting about billions of credits in data / ego stroking then frankly its insane explorers think they should be safe. If it were me I'd sit down and spend an evening on INARA and find the most deserted tin shack I could.

And that's a good reason to screw with another player's enjoyment of the game? I can't agree. The game does not offer, on the surface, an official PvE mode to experience the game with other players without that aspect, so presuming everyone that ventures into open is implied to be signing up for that kind of engagement is not fair. Of course...this has been discussed to death and back a few times already.

How is playing the game 'ruining' it for you? Other players are content for you in Open, because thats what Open is. Its up to the explorer to remain hidden / mitigate risk and for the data pirate to find / extract the data. Explorers should be subject to pirate NPCs and players wanting what they have, being wary of scans.

That's a competition of survival, then. The point is to do with emphasizing a game experience revolving around punishing one another, which I do not view as a good thing and far too many games have made their sole focus as it is.
Its not 'punishing'- its a fail state. If you are caught, you have failed that objective that organically arose. Like I said, if the explorer takes precautions, plans their entry into the bubble they'll be safe. If they do something silly like fly into Sol then its up to them to mitigate risk, because thats the game - the risks out exploring are totally different to those in system. You can re-outfit your ship, use a FC, change ships.....the very worst thing someone can do is be stupidly stubborn and expect a jump optimised vessel to operate well.
 
Personally I'd want data to be broken down into more discrete chunks, so you'd have cartographic data which is worth money but low BGS value, and things like tactical scans that would- but that requires a wholesale rethink and realistically lowering datas BGS influence would be the easiest solution, considering the BGS IMO has too many ways to boost it positively.

That would be a pretty neat addition to the game - and add an actual reason for why we are 'discovering' known and habited systems in human space. I agree too that the influence it has could also be lowered, goodness knows the BGS has too many ways of being gamed at the moment.

Well, every second you remain alive is a chance to escape. If someone wants your stuff its on them to keep you alive- if you can hack a ship while its in motion (i.e. its functional) blowing them up serves no purpose in this case.

I mean...sure, if you're suggesting it would encourage some deep-space gankers with dreams of piracy to roleplay instead of griefing explorers, I'll admit there's a possibility. But it seems slim from where I sit.

To me data is data, its a matter of scale. At the low end you have fast data that could become the new way to pirate, at the top end you have rare 'mother lode' situations with explorers.

If you are carting about billions of credits in data / ego stroking then frankly its insane explorers think they should be safe. If it were me I'd sit down and spend an evening on INARA and find the most deserted tin shack I could.

I can't view exploration in the same overall category - hauling courier data will never place your commander name on a system where all other commanders can find it forevermore. The 'fast' and 'motherlode' data ideas could be interesting where exploration is not concerned, however.

I haven't come across much in the way of posts involving ego stroking based upon the credit worth of hoarded exploration data and flaunting about how safe it is, so I really just don't see the merit in seeking to punish that behavior. It's already generally shared advice to hand in data regularly, to not be in Open when doing it, and to do it at relatively quiet corners of the bubble if you insist on staying in Open. Take away any chance of using exploration to abuse the BGS, and what harm is it to anybody else playing the game?

How is playing the game 'ruining' it for you? Other players are content for you in Open, because thats what Open is. Its up to the explorer to remain hidden / mitigate risk and for the data pirate to find / extract the data. Explorers should be subject to pirate NPCs and players wanting what they have, being wary of scans.

Other players are not necessarily 'content for you'. Other players are trying to enjoy the content alongside you, because it's fun to see other people in the same game. Nowhere has FDev put up a disclaimer for new players stating, "If you go into Open, you are assumed to accept that you are potentially content for other players to engage and disrupt as they see fit". That's never been what Open is, that's merely what it has been treated as in bad faith. Should that experience exist for those that want it? Sure, but you have to also then permit the experience that does not include that factor for those that also want that. So, in the end, it's back again to whether Fdev will bother implementing an official PvE mode, which is as up in the air as it has been for the past 5+ years, instead of keeping this confused status quo where Open is serving both roles.

As for pirate NPCs...if you want to please the "it's got Dangerous in the name" crowd and alienate the less frustration-inclined crowd, then sure, that would accomplish that. Experienced players would probably find it trivial, but I could very much see it turning away yet more new players. e.g. "I spent 3 months exploring only to get blown up and waste everything because this NPC blew me up right before I could land and even though system security was tearing it apart". I wouldn't want to go on playing, either. This game has too many complaints about disrespecting player time and investment as it is.

Its not 'punishing'- its a fail state. If you are caught, you have failed that objective that organically arose. Like I said, if the explorer takes precautions, plans their entry into the bubble they'll be safe. If they do something silly like fly into Sol then its up to them to mitigate risk, because thats the game - the risks out exploring are totally different to those in system. You can re-outfit your ship, use a FC, change ships.....the very worst thing someone can do is be stupidly stubborn and expect a jump optimised vessel to operate well.

'Punishing' or 'fail state', it's the same thing.

For what it's worth...this conversation has given me an idea about 'nefarious exploration' - mission types that have you exploring for less-than-legal aims, to be handed in at factions that are into that sort of thing, and which could then justify introducing the risk of being intercepted and blown up; it could even just be for reasons of industrial rivalry. That way, you get the experience you're after and players that don't want that can go on not being forced into that. Win-win!
 
I mean...sure, if you're suggesting it would encourage some deep-space gankers with dreams of piracy to roleplay instead of griefing explorers, I'll admit there's a possibility. But it seems slim from where I sit.
Aside from organised expeditions with known locations, deep space ganking is not a thing. The further away you go the chances drop dramatically. Its when you are returning which is the danger point (which as I've said, can be made to be virtually risk free if you do some planning).

I can't view exploration in the same overall category - hauling courier data will never place your commander name on a system where all other commanders can find it forevermore. The 'fast' and 'motherlode' data ideas could be interesting where exploration is not concerned, however.

I haven't come across much in the way of posts involving ego stroking based upon the credit worth of hoarded exploration data and flaunting about how safe it is, so I really just don't see the merit in seeking to punish that behavior. It's already generally shared advice to hand in data regularly, to not be in Open when doing it, and to do it at relatively quiet corners of the bubble if you insist on staying in Open. Take away any chance of using exploration to abuse the BGS, and what harm is it to anybody else playing the game?

Data (imo) is data. Mission data has a value just as scan data does, its just one can have no limit.

If you are in Open, then whatever you are doing needs to come with careful situational considerations. What I'd like to see is more cut-throat exploration competition- explorers quite often hoard and hide names of places until they get the name / money for it- if exploration had a role in game (such as dictating faction expansion, general bubble expansion etc) you'd create an interesting micro economy that makes sense in game.

Other players are not necessarily 'content for you'. Other players are trying to enjoy the content alongside you, because it's fun to see other people in the same game. Nowhere has FDev put up a disclaimer for new players stating, "If you go into Open, you are assumed to accept that you are potentially content for other players to engage and disrupt as they see fit". That's never been what Open is, that's merely what it has been treated as in bad faith. Should that experience exist for those that want it? Sure, but you have to also then permit the experience that does not include that factor for those that also want that. So, in the end, it's back again to whether Fdev will bother implementing an official PvE mode, which is as up in the air as it has been for the past 5+ years, instead of keeping this confused status quo where Open is serving both roles.
Well, you are content, thats why other modes and block that cut it out exist. Thats why people need to stop whingeing about being attacked and learn to cope by using the tools and features the game has to overcome and mitigate other players. The most dangerous ships will always be players because you never know what they intend to do, and flying about in a ship tuned to be as light and bendy as possible is asking for trouble.

As for pirate NPCs...if you want to please the "it's got Dangerous in the name" crowd and alienate the less frustration-inclined crowd, then sure, that would accomplish that. Experienced players would probably find it trivial, but I could very much see it turning away yet more new players. e.g. "I spent 3 months exploring only to get blown up and waste everything because this NPC blew me up right before I could land and even though system security was tearing it apart". I wouldn't want to go on playing, either. This game has too many complaints about disrespecting player time and investment as it is.
So having NPCs do NPC things is bad? :D

If anything its actually making the game better. Missions that deliver data have pirates and hired goons after you that by default want to destroy you- by making NPC pirates want to hack and take your mission data its actually making a very ordinary mission more interesting. Remember I'm not advocating for NPC pirates to blow people up because they hold data, I'm advocating for NPCs to want to grab that data for themselves. So this:

turning away yet more new players. e.g. "I spent 3 months exploring only to get blown up and waste everything because this NPC blew me up right before I could land

is a strawman. The NPC would launch a very obvious and slow limpet that could be defeated by PD or ECM, modules forgotten in todays game.

Player v player hacking could use the old exploration spinny game in that once locked on the hacker has to quickly match the electronic tumblers. You could even make it like interdiction where the victim of the hack has to counter the hacker in the same way (or fly off)- and if the hack goes bad it might leave the criminal vulnerable.

In short its substantially backfilling an area of the game thats lacking.

'Punishing' or 'fail state', it's the same thing.
All games have ways to fail. Its only punishing if you continually fail to the point where there is no defence, something which this idea does not create because the game and proposed feature have mechanisms that allow defence.

For what it's worth...this conversation has given me an idea about 'nefarious exploration' - mission types that have you exploring for less-than-legal aims, to be handed in at factions that are into that sort of thing, and which could then justify introducing the risk of being intercepted and blown up; it could even just be for reasons of industrial rivalry. That way, you get the experience you're after and players that don't want that can go on not being forced into that. Win-win!

Its a good idea, a bit like what I suggested earlier. It really comes down to making more of exploration and giving it a purpose, because currently it has none.

not being forced into that
By having data you are potentially a target by default, simply as there is a direct BGS link and benefit- you are not forced into it. If anything its a lack of understanding as to the ramifications.
 
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