Pirate Dichotomy and how to talk about them

[Olivia Vespera]

Your use of the word prey to describe a variety of professions, including, but not limited to, miners, explorers and traders, is just as distasteful, if not even more so, as using pirates to describe those you are trying to categorize right now.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I'm just using the term to describe their role in an encounter with an outlaw. If there is something useful we can discern from their specific job class pertaining to discussion about outlaws, then by all means. If not, can we move forward and not get hung up on this. :/

Not only that, you have to audacity to call these people irrelevant?

They're not relevant if they're not interested in talking about it. No one is forcing anyone to be a part of any discussion. But if they're interested in talking about their encounter with an outlaw, it may help to understand what kind they had dealt with to better communicate with others.

Do you really want to help along the discussion or are you maybe just tired being called a pirate/terrorist/whatever yourself?

This is ad hominem. i won't dignify this with an answer. You can learn about me on your own time on inara and my radio station here. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Becks]

Your use of the word prey to describe a variety of professions, including, but not limited to, miners, explorers and traders, is just as distasteful, if not even more so, as using pirates to describe those you are trying to categorize right now.
Not only that, you have to audacitiy to call these people irrelevant? Wow. Really. Wow. Especially considering that they are the players who would have most use for the categories you are suggesting, because they are the ones that complain about being blown up/robbed/tickled under their feet for an unreasonably long period of time.

To me those players that take up legitimate professions are much more relevant than the collective dirt under our galaxy's fingernails that you currently appear to be siding with. And I am starting to question your intentions. Do you really want to help along the discussion or are you maybe just tired being called a pirate/terrorist/whatever yourself?

Since Olivia isn't only a fuel rat, but also a very busy trader and at the moment explorer on the distant world expedition, it's pretty unlikely that she is "maybe just tired being called a pirate/terrorist/whatever yourself?".

Also the definition of piracy makes the case (at least for me) pretty clear: "Piracy is an act of robbery or criminal violence at sea (in this case: in space). Those who engage in acts of piracy are called pirates."

Pirates, gankers, griefers, assassins, everyone who engages in non consensual PvP, can be called a pirate. I don't think you need subcategories for that

 

[Marra Morgan]

To me those players that take up legitimate professions are much more relevant than the collective dirt under our galaxy's fingernails that you currently appear to be siding with. And I am starting to question your intentions. Do you really want to help along the discussion or are you maybe just tired being called a pirate/terrorist/whatever yourself?

I have my own opinion of players that take up legitimate professions and get all sanctimonious with those of us who choose a different path.
It's not a very nice opinion, mind you.

 

[unrealization]

I'm sorry you feel this way. I'm just using the term to describe their role in an encounter with an outlaw. If there is something useful we can discern from their specific job class pertaining to discussion about outlaws, then by all means. If not, can we move forward and not get hung up on this. :/

You were using it in a way that came across very condescending. And if you are campaigning for us to distinguish between various types of outlaws then you cannot go around not distinguishing between various types of "prey". ;-)
That also was the reason why I worded my final question that way. ;-)

They're not relevant if they're not interested in talking about it. No one is forcing anyone to be a part of any discussion. But if they're interested in talking about their encounter with an outlaw, it may help to understand what kind they had dealt with to better communicate with others.

Then we get back to the question how these players would be aware of those categories, especially new players.

This is ad hominem. i won't dignify this with an answer.

I assume you are aware that you just did. ;-)

You can learn about me on your own time on inara and my radio station here. Let's leave it at that.

Oh, I have seen you on Inara, and your trade escort requests. Which actually is why I was so surprised you would call those people prey and irrelevant.

 

[Kestril]

o7 to Olivia for very calmly addressing some rather hasty, knee-jerk, and rude comments in a manner which forwards the discussion. This board always goes into rage mode when the word pirate is mentioned. This is to help codify and distinguish the roles so frontier gets a better picture of what's going on before they do something like re-vamp the bounty system.

Here's my take, I classify based upon reward and system law*.

Killing​

Bounty Hunter: A CMDR who kills within the bounds of the local system law for a reward.
Assassin: A CMDR who kills in violation of the local system law for a reward.
Mercenary: A CMDR who kills within some larger conflict for a reward, regardless of the law.
Murderer: A CMDR who kills in violation of the local system law for no reward.

Stealing​

Pirate: A CMDR who steals cargo for themselves in violation of system law. The stolen cargo is their primary reward.
Privateer: A CMDR who steals cargo for a larger power in violation of system law. While they may get a cut of stolen cargo, Their payment is their primary reward.
Security: A CMDR who steals cargo for a larger power within the bounds of system law. Their payment is their primary reward.
Vigilante: A CMDR who steals cargo for themselves within the bounds of system law. Their stolen cargo is their primary reward.

I agree with your classification of freelance/organized classification. So a lone-wolf cargo-stealer would be a freelance pirate, while an organized law-violation killer would be an organized assassin.

*For anarchy systems, I assume people are always in violation of the law.

Edit: Added Security and Vigilante. While I don't think it's technically possible in game, I added for the sake of completeness.

 

[Olivia Vespera]

Vikings, for instance, were typical raiders. They swiftly attacked out of nowhere, plundered and pillaged what they could get and disappeared as quickly as they had come.

In Babylon 5, there was also a pirate organisation called Raiders. They attacked cargo convoys and were known for never leaving any survivors. Later in the series they also attacked remote surface settlements and blackmailed them into paying ransoms for their safety.

I missed this. With the lack of our ability to pillage towns, i think we won't be having any raiders anytime soon. I don't think it can be realised in game just yet. At least until we have player owned towns. (PVE? sure but no one complains about PVE right? )

 

[Martian Successor]

I have my own opinion of players that take up legitimate professions and get all sanctimonious with those of us who choose a different path.
It's not a very nice opinion, mind you.

That's an interesting point you touch upon. What qualifies as a legitimate profession in ED? Do you mean lawful and unlawful professions?

You were using it in a way that came across very condescending. And if you are campaigning for us to distinguish between various types of outlaws then you cannot go around not distinguishing between various types of "prey". ;-)
That also was the reason why I worded my final question that way. ;-)


Then we get back to the question how these players would be aware of those categories, especially new players.


I assume you are aware that you just did. ;-)


Oh, I have seen you on Inara, and your trade escort requests. Which actually is why I was so surprised you would call those people prey and irrelevant.

Please let's keep the temperature down a bit. For what it's worth, I can see why you might think that 'prey' is an insulting term but it actually isn't - not the way Olivia was using it anyway. In the scenario that she outlines where a player (lets say a pirate, a highwayman) is hunting another player (lets say a trader) then the trader in that scenario is the prey. That's not to say the trader is weaker or less worthy than the pirate who's hunting them, it is merely a description of the archetypes. For example if I say a carnivore makes prey of herbivores I'm not insulting the herbivores by calling them prey.

A bounty hunter makes prey of pirates. A pirate makes prey of ships carrying valuable goods. You could even say a miner makes prey of asteroids

 

[Olivia Vespera]

Then we get back to the question how these players would be aware of those categories, especially new players.

There are several ways that vary in circumstance. I think the most truthful answer I can give to how we may educate new player is to just tell a friend about this thread or tell them about the ideas in here, and if they agree let it spread. Help point this out in discussing about outlaws or whatever that could use it... Honestly I think this is a little out of scope. Maybe i have biases in this regard but I think we know how to spread information if we want to. Come on. Are we really asking how new players learn new things about our community? It'll happen. (--if you like the idea )

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Here's my take, I classify based upon reward and system law*.

Killing​	Stealing​
Bounty Hunter: A CMDR who kills within the bounds of the local system law for a reward.	Pirate: A CMDR who steals cargo for themselves in violation of system law. The stolen cargo is their primary reward.
Assassin: A CMDR who kills in violation of the local system law for a reward.	Privateer: A CMDR who steals cargo for a larger power in violation of system law. While they may get a cut of stolen cargo, Their payment is their primary reward.
Mercenary: A CMDR who kills within some larger conflict for a reward, regardless of the law.	Security: A CMDR who steals cargo for a larger power within the bounds of system law. Their payment is their primary reward.
Murderer: A CMDR who kills in violation of the local system law for no reward.	Vigilante: A CMDR who steals cargo for themselves within the bounds of system law. Their stolen cargo is their primary reward.

I agree with your classification of freelance/organized classification. So a lone-wolf cargo-stealer would be a freelance pirate, while an organized law-violation killer would be an organized assassin.

*For anarchy systems, I assume people are always in violation of the law.

Edit: Added Security and Vigilante. While I don't think it's technically possible in game, I added for the sake of completeness.

Thanks for the support Kestril o7!

I don't know how you can be security or a vigilante and abide with system law and steal cargo. edit: ah okay i see now.
Also what do you mean by a higher power? Powerplay, i don't think right? You probably mean being hired.

I have thoughts, will do stuff.

 

[Kestril]

I don't know how you can be security or a vigilante and abide with system law and steal cargo. edit: ah okay i se enow.
Also waht do you mean by a higher power? Powerplay, i don't think right?

Yeah. Powerplay or fighting between player groups. Under my classification The escorts which run with the hutton orbital truckers would be considered mercenaries as they fend off code pirates, for example. Likewise, a patreous-pledged commander would be considered a mercenary if they make a foray into Hudson's space and attack Hudson-supporting CMDRS. PowerPlay "loyalty" tokens are still a reward.

 

[Jypson]

So how would the A-Team (Soldiers of Fortune) fit into your categories?

"In 1972 a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team."

They are indeed outlaws, but not really conforming to the stated parameters.

*Edit: Just saw your edit, nevermind

 

[Olivia Vespera]

Yeah. Powerplay or fighting between player groups. Under my classification The escorts which run with the hutton orbital truckers would be considered mercenaries as they fend off code pirates, for example. Likewise, a patreous-pledged commander would be considered a mercenary if they make a foray into Hudson's space and attack Hudson-supporting CMDRS. PowerPlay "loyalty" tokens are still a reward.

And these actions are illegal? Alright I wasn't aware. Haven't done much PP.

I've added some changes to the dichotomy now.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

Pirating my friend, is pirating. Some may murder and steal, some may just steal, but it's still piracy with no little grey areas to sweeten the experience.

It is. And ye better pay when asked lest ye be blown to pieces! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

 

[Kestril]

And these actions are illegal? Alright I wasn't aware. Haven't done much PP.

I've added some changes to the dichotomy now.

I mean "regardless of the law" as in "can be legal or illegal." It's the larger conflict that matters.

But to answer your question: yes. IIRC killing with powerplay can rack up your bounty pretty quickly, as most of the targets are not wanted.

 

[Martian Successor]

o7 to Olivia for very calmly addressing some rather hasty, knee-jerk, and rude comments in a manner which forwards the discussion. This board always goes into rage mode when the word pirate is mentioned. This is to help codify and distinguish the roles so frontier gets a better picture of what's going on before they do something like re-vamp the bounty system.

Here's my take, I classify based upon reward and system law*.

Killing​

Bounty Hunter: A CMDR who kills within the bounds of the local system law for a reward.
Assassin: A CMDR who kills in violation of the local system law for a reward.
Mercenary: A CMDR who kills within some larger conflict for a reward, regardless of the law.
Murderer: A CMDR who kills in violation of the local system law for no reward.

Stealing​

Pirate: A CMDR who steals cargo for themselves in violation of system law. The stolen cargo is their primary reward.
Privateer: A CMDR who steals cargo for a larger power in violation of system law. While they may get a cut of stolen cargo, Their payment is their primary reward.
Security: A CMDR who steals cargo for a larger power within the bounds of system law. Their payment is their primary reward.
Vigilante: A CMDR who steals cargo for themselves within the bounds of system law. Their stolen cargo is their primary reward.

I agree with your classification of freelance/organized classification. So a lone-wolf cargo-stealer would be a freelance pirate, while an organized law-violation killer would be an organized assassin.

*For anarchy systems, I assume people are always in violation of the law.

Edit: Added Security and Vigilante. While I don't think it's technically possible in game, I added for the sake of completeness.

That's a good breakdown of those roles but I don't think that Vigilante and Security should be under the 'Stealing' category as that is not the primary motivation for those two roles.

In Ghost Squadron we have members who associate themselves with the role of Vigilante and Security and it never involves stealing cargo - in fact stealing cargo is frowned upon for both roles. For them the role of Vigilante is one who goes after criminals that the law enforcement is either too corrupt to go after or is unable to catch them commiting a felony even though it's obvious they are a criminal - like Al Capone, the original real life griefer/ganker . The vigilante takes the law into their own hands and dispenses their own version of justice - think Batman but in space

The role of Security (according to my fellow Ghosts that I have talked with) is someone who upholds the laws of the power/government/faction they have chosen to represent. They must work within the law without breaking the law - like a real cop does. So that one is basically Robocop in space.

That's why I believe it to be incorrect to categorise those two roles as stealers of cargo.

 

[Kestril]

The role of Security (according to my fellow Ghosts that I have talked with) is someone who upholds the laws of the power/government/faction they have chosen to represent. They must work within the law without breaking the law - like a real cop does. So that one is basically Robocop in space.

That's why I believe it to be incorrect to categorise those two roles as stealers of cargo.

Fair enough. I'm open to suggestions when it comes to the specific names.

 

[Dwarden]

it's interesting idea and those classification can be even applied to AI and the way they behave (alone, in pack and in future with memory)

this could expand to the ranking system,
mission types for both the outlaws and the justice and of course rewards
behavior of NPC victim AI and security AI vs those outlaws AI ...

again the imagination and some logical thinking is the limit how utilize this

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

I have my own opinion of players that take up legitimate professions and get all sanctimonious with those of us who choose a different path.

I make a large part of my income in game with mining. But I mostly sell to criminal groups. I find it helps to "cut out the middleman", in this case the pirate, since they tend to leave their allies alone.
And smuggling is just so much fun. mostly illegal rare goods for me.
.
But I do enjoy gettng all sanctimonious (not that us miners tend to use such big words) with slavers. It's always so easy to get a bite out of a slaver - probably because they are often feeling guilty about what they do.

 

[unrealization]

Please let's keep the temperature down a bit.

You'd notice if I were to turn up the heat. As far as I'm concerned all this is room temperature. ;-)

For what it's worth, I can see why you might think that 'prey' is an insulting term but it actually isn't - not the way Olivia was using it anyway. In the scenario that she outlines where a player (lets say a pirate, a highwayman) is hunting another player (lets say a trader) then the trader in that scenario is the prey.

Now imagine you are one of those traders. And after wrongfully calling a "legitimate" pirate a ganker, or a ganker a pirate, or use one of those categories incorrectly in any of roughly 100 possible ways, you are referred here in order to learn the proper terms. And then you see the person who suggested these terms in the first place calling you prey, and irrelevant.
Does it really serve Olivia's purpose to say those things? Wouldn't you want to avoid calling those people who are the most likely to be directed here names in order to actually get your message across to them? Even if it's not insulting, which I think it is, it's at least condescending and absolutely unnecessary.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

You're right. Pirates shouldn't be condescending to their prey, they might get a bad name.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

I don't know how you can be security or a vigilante and abide with system law and steal cargo. edit: ah okay i see now.
Also what do you mean by a higher power? Powerplay, i don't think right? You probably mean being hired.

I have thoughts, will do stuff.

Privateers work for ANOTHER power, given authority to raid commerce to damage another power. While that might not protect you if caught by the people you are... privateering from, it should keep you from being hung as a pirate by your employer and their allies.

By and large, they do not take on military targets, unlike a Mercenary. Privateers are paid to steal, not to kill, but it does happen. Just like Mercenaries are not paid to loot... but it happens.