Pirate Dichotomy and how to talk about them

Aewarin Jameson

Aewarin Jameson
An interesting idea but not one I will use (sorry) For me there's only 2 terms :

- Pirate : someone who steals from you
- Murderer : someone who kills you

That's all there is to it.

--

Now, as to promoting the idea of something more for pirates than what we have (which is really pathetic) during the KS campaign FD announced that the 4 roles - Trader / Explorer / Bounty Hunter / Pirate - would be equally viable as a career path. Yeah - that hasn't turned out so well .. For one - where's the piracy ratings ?! :eek:

Some other titbits that I wish FD would implement and flesh out the Piracy role (even though DB said it was done :rolleyes:)

Ratings and Reputation

FD & DDF opinion on Piracy in general - Read that thread as it's a gold mine as to the initial thoughts of FD and the follow up by the DDF.

I am telling you - we all wanted more than what we got :(
 
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Kestril

Kestril
unrealization said:
Now imagine you are one of those traders. And after wrongfully calling a "legitimate" pirate a ganker, or a ganker a pirate, or use one of those categories incorrectly in any of roughly 100 possible ways, you are referred here in order to learn the proper terms. And then you see the person who suggested these terms in the first place calling you prey, and irrelevant.
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Irrelevant to the current conversation trying to be had in this thread. You're reading too much into this one, mate. No one here is being intentionally condescending.

"Prey" isn't even a condescending term. Heck, some prey is pretty badass, like that dinosar that basically had armor on its back and a morningstar on it's tail (it was still preyed upon by other dinosaurs) . If Olivia used a term like "noobs" or "worthless space truckers" then you'd have a case here. Right now you're constructing a strawman out of a term that's not offensive nor dismissive in the first place.

So please stop derailing this thread.
 
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Kristov

K
I see it rather simply myself..

The good guys, anyone not firing weapons at me or otherwise trying to cause me harm in any way for any reason.

The bad guys, anyone firing weapons at me or otherwise trying to cause me harm in any way for any reason.

You can be all ivory tower about it you want but that's pretty much all it is in the end, people are either not trying to hurt you or they are trying to hurt you, and that can change at the drop of a Remlock, so keep your eyes open and pay attention to what people say and do, as those can often be conflicting.
 

Olivia Vespera

Olivia Vespera
Dwarden said:
it's interesting idea and those classification can be even applied to AI and the way they behave (alone, in pack and in future with memory)

This could expand to the ranking system,
mission types for both the outlaws and the justice and of course rewards
behavior of NPC victim AI and security AI vs those outlaws AI ...

Again the imagination and some logical thinking is the limit how utilize this :)
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I didn't mean for this to be utilized in game, as said in scope, it is beyond the scope of this suggestion.
That said, it's a nice idea. You should check out https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=163170 if you haven't already.

CMDR Byr Goefin said:
Privateers work for ANOTHER power, given authority to raid commerce to damage another power...By and large, they do not take on military targets, unlike a Mercenary. Privateers are paid to steal, not to kill, but it does happen. Just like Mercenaries are not paid to loot... but it happens.
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Ah yeah, I'm aware it doesn't fully match up semantically and doesn't cover the nuances. It is hopefully a step up from prior terms.

how would you prefer to name and categorise outlaws?
 
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CMDR Argent Steel

CMDR Argent Steel
I'm just going to take this opportunity to say specifically that even though I am apathetic toward trying to change the language we use to describe outlaws in the game, I do like that someone like Olivia has started a discussion about it.

Also Marra, you go right on making a nuisance of yourself. I approve.
 

CMDR Byr Goefin

C
Olivia Vespera said:
I didn't mean for this to be utilized in game, as said in scope, it is beyond the scope of this suggestion.
That said, it's a nice idea. You should check out https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=163170 if you haven't already.

Ah yeah, I'm aware it doesn't fully match up semantically and doesn't cover the nuances. It is hopefully a step up from prior terms.

how would you prefer to name and categorise outlaws?
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Bad Pirate: Alive.
Good Pirate: Dead.

But then, I play a White Templar, we have this tendency to simplify problems....

Although you could classify White Templars as Mercenaries, as we accept payment from ALD to hunt down her enemies.

We are not her soldiers, as we have no organizational allegiance to the Emperor or the Empire, it is a flag of convenience. Her objectives and ours match at this time. Should they stop aligning, we would find another flag to operate under, or fly under our own.

I think all the nuances and classifications give people the opportunity to pick a path and explain how they got there.

Space is vast and diverse, and the storytelling should be the same.
 
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Olivia Vespera

Olivia Vespera
CMDR Byr Goefin said:
Bad Pirate: Alive.
Good Pirate: Dead.

But then, I play a White Templar, we have this tendency to simplify problems....
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By all means use this how you see fit :)

CMDR Byr Goefin said:
I think all the nuances and classifications give people the opportunity to pick a path and explain how they got there.

Space is vast and diverse, and the storytelling should be the same.
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I refer to these two points in the scope section of the suggestion:
  • This suggestion does not look to enforce outlaws to adopt particular labels. Only that when others discuss their actions, they be understood through the lens of what they've done and which category they fit.
  • This suggestion does not cover the minute differences between every outlaw factions and individuals but does so with only the broad strokes that currently have only been covered under one so far.
I agree wholeheartedly with you that these minute difference are important to each outlaws story and the categories are not meant to be enforced as labels that you wear. It is just a tool to discuss outlaws and to categorize them base of their actions I have been thinking about adding another layer to the dichotomy called drivers. "Are you doing this for commercial gain or for the lulz?"
This only applied to pirates and marauders who would either be of the following:
  • Pirate - autonomous and wants cargo
    • Cutthroat - they will kill you if you don't give them what they want and what they want is your cargo.
    • Gentlemen - or a thief, they're profit driven and are skilled merchantmen. they prefer not to kill
  • Marauder - autonomous and wants to kill you
    • Reaver - wants to kill you because they're cray cray and can't be reasoned with
    • Bounty Hunter - wants to kill you for profit.

I don't want to make it too complex, but these were my thoughts.
 
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Marra Morgan

Marra Morgan
CMDR Byr Goefin said:
I think all the nuances and classifications give people the opportunity to pick a path and explain how they got there.

Space is vast and diverse, and the storytelling should be the same.
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+1 for this thought!
I wholly agree - as beautiful as black and white are, they get a bit boring after a while. The vibrant shades of grey in between are what makes things interesting ;)

CMDR Argent Steel said:
Also Marra, you go right on making a nuisance of yourself. I approve.
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You're getting a +1 too!
 

Olivia Vespera

Olivia Vespera
Liqua said:
An interesting idea but not one I will use (sorry) For me there's only 2 terms :

- Pirate : someone who steals from you
- Murderer : someone who kills you

That's all there is to it.
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no worries! ^^ I appreciate that.

--
Liqua said:
During the KS campaign FD announced that the 4 roles - Trader / Explorer / Bounty Hunter / Pirate - would be equally viable as a career path. Yeah - that hasn't turned out so well .. For one - where's the piracy ratings ?! :eek:

Some other titbits that I wish FD would implement and flesh out the Piracy role (even though DB said it was done :rolleyes:)

Ratings and Reputation

FD & DDF opinion on Piracy in general - Read that thread as it's a gold mine as to the initial thoughts of FD and the follow up by the DDF.

I am telling you - we all wanted more than what we got :(
Click to expand...

Thanks for the links! I had a read and I liked it. It's a shame it's not there yet but I have faith in the developers.

I think this suggestion/thread is well developed enough, that if any of you agree with these ideas, you'd be willing to link and share it with whomever you come across on the forums.

It was nice talking to each and everyone of you.
 

Olivia Vespera

Olivia Vespera
Liqua said:
You're polite, which is rare attribute in the online world - have some rep :)
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thanks ^^ if it interests you or anyone else,

I created an experimental dichotomy that has more depth and nuances that looks into the motivations of each pirate class. It is attached at the bottom of the OP. It might be interesting to talk about.
 
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Limoncello Lizard

Limoncello Lizard
You prove your point quite well with that message. It's quite clear what these bast.....CMDRs are up to.
And I'm currently marauding NPCs in Gilya, though I'm not turning down free cargo.
 

Scal

Scal
I support this thread - language is important and the word 'griefer' has been misused so much that it is now near meaningless.
 

Forlorn

Forlorn
Olivia Vespera said:
...

  • Outlaw - Autonomous and self-interested
    • Pirate - steals cargo
      • Gentlemen - won't kill you if you don't comply
      • Cutthroat - will kill you if you don't comply
    • Marauder - kills pilots
      • Gladiator - only fights worthy opponents
      • Reaver - fights any opponent
      • Coward ​Opportunist- only targets weaker opponents

  • Mercenary - hired and for-profit
    • Privateer - steals cargo
      • Gentlemen - won't kill you if you don't comply
      • Cutthroat - will kill you if you don't comply
    • Professional - kill pilots
      • Bounty Hunter - hired to take out one specific person
        • Assassin - does not care if the player is wanted or not
      • Terrorist - hired to kill indiscriminately in one abstract region
Each type can be further divided into two subtypes:

  • Freelancers - work alone and can vary in quality and reliability
  • Organised - establish and have less volatile levels of quality and reliability
You can be a Freelance Gentlemen Privateer or a Organised guild of Professional Assassins
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First of all, I love this idea... wanted to make a post before it dropped off the main page, but life got in the way.

Saw another poster today talking about the same thing, so I dropped a link to this thread. I'd say I'm sorry for the light necromancy, but I'm really not :D

One small suggestion to your "Experimental Dichotomy" - what do you think about swapping out "Coward", and replace with "Opportunist"?
 
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