Pirate Vs Experienced Trader -- Lots of Fun... but Sad too.

All this will change with the addition of "Wings".

Pirates will be able to hunt in packs and use their superior numbers and firepower to force the traders to drop cargo or be obliterated. On the flipside, traders will be able to employ escorts to deal with any pirate attacks. As it stands currently, I believe the system works well. In this encounter we see described, the trader was better spec'd and displayed better skill than the OP (no offense intended). In other encounters the battle may go in the OP's favour.
Couple of questions to the OP:

1. Did you target your opponents drive system to prevent FSJ ?
2. Was your ship properly equipped ?
3. Was your ship capable of interdicting and subduing such a large target ?
4. How much is your current bounty worth? :D:D:D

Here is an observation that had not occurred to me. We just need to hope it is implemented properly.

The overarching thing here is what FD's intentions were. Do they favour opposition over cooperation? PvE vs PvP?

I don't think we are going to see any significant shift in direction. Traders will trade. Explorers will explore (needs buffing up a lot). Pirates, real ones, will pirate because they are determined and skilled. I do think bounty hunters and miners need some love (I'm not inclined to either of these personally) Others will decide to do something else entirely.

Cheers
 
Edit - There really is far too low risk pirating. Even on the odd chance you WOULD get killed you lose far, far less. I hope they bring in trade insurance, that should at least help a bit.

Complete nonsense, who do you think player bounty hunters are after? Also how much do traders spend in repairs, ammunition, limpet costs every time they go out? That bounty on their head is also paid from the pirates own coffers when it is collected, and right now pirating is right next to exploration in terms of earning potential. Should they offer substantial pirating missions, or find some way to allow pirates to sell trade goods at more than 50% of galactic average then their earning potential can improve and you may be approaching a valid point.
 
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I think the main issue is that there is very little skill required at the end of the Type-6. There's a fairly basic procedure to follow. If you follow it you have no problems. If you don't follow it you are probably a sitting duck if the Cobra wants to kill you.

Fundamentally, it should be the more skilfull player (and ship) that comes out on top, not the ones that know the basic rinse & repeat procudure for escaping. Obviously there should be some skill balancing based on ship type and modules, and maybe for equally skilled players the Type-6 in this case should escape, but a large skill gap in favour of the Cobra should allow the Cobra to "win". This is why the suggestion is to remove the basic rinse & repeat method: it takes the skill out of the engagement. The Type-6 can get away every time with a method that, while working it out is clever, doesn't really take much skill to enact. The problem is, without the method, the Cobra can always kill the Type-6 should he want to (and usually he does not want to).

There is clearly a design issue here though: interactions should not be decided by rinse and repeat procedures IMO, but by player skill and ship capabilities. My current problem is I'm struggling to work out a way that the Type-6 could be given an opportunity to show his skill. The best Type-6 driver isn't that much better than an average one - the ship holds you down.

It does sound a bit binary in terms of outcome. Perhaps whats needed is some way to force some amount of cargo drop over time without having to take out shields (I dont know if this is possible with hatch limpets). This way the outcome would not be so all-or-nothing for both protagonists - the faster the trader evades the less cargo he loses.
 
The overarching thing here is what FD's intentions were. Do they favour opposition over cooperation?

I can see several avenues where cooperation amongst pirates would bypass many of the complaints we see here.

Type-6 can't be mass locked by a Cobra? Interdict it with another Type-6 and have your buddy, who is in the Cobra, drop in immediately behind you.
 
Edit - There really is far too low risk pirating. Even on the odd chance you WOULD get killed you lose far, far less. I hope they bring in trade insurance, that should at least help a bit.

Complete nonsense, who do you think player bounty hunters are after? Also how much do traders spend in repairs, ammunition, limpet costs every time they go out? That bounty on their head is also paid from the pirates own coffers when it is collected, and right now pirating is right next to exploration in terms of earning potential. Should they offer substantial pirating missions, or find some way to allow pirates to sell trade goods at more than 50% of galactic average then their earning potential can improve and you may be approaching a valid point.

Pirates do have expenses but these things you mentioned are not risks.
 
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Just pulled over a type 6 who was clearly very experienced. Had chaff, point defense, shields, and shield cell (from the look of the never weakening shields from the first volley). He wasn't trading necessary defense for more cargo space (fast cash) and he was hauling rare goods (scanned him) in the open. Major props to that; wish there were more like him.

The roughly 10 seconds I got to fire on him was incredibly fun and makes me realize why I love this game. This guy was hauling and he knew the dangers of the universe and he equipped accordingly. Threw out chaff, point defense destroyed my missiles, any shots incoming nullified by shield cell. He was ready to rock. Even though he got away, it was pretty damn awesome. This is how traders should be traveling and be ready for combat.

Of course.... this awesomeness was cut short by the fact that he submitted to interdiction and warped immediately away (3 times), essentially nullifying any chance of success against him -- thus cheapening the experience overall. Completely impossible to actually pirate a t6 or above in the current state of the game (any hauler that takes advantage of submit, warp, laugh technique).

It's a bit of a game spoiler at the moment and makes piracy far less fun when any juicy target can do this at will.

I am completely willing to lose these encounters and have the hauler get away (especially when he is so prepared like this guy was)... just want a bit more time to get the chance to succeed. 8 to 12 seconds (if your lucky) just isn't enough time.

How does this technique fair against a pirate asp? Is it the same thing or will the asp's mass stop this tactic and enable better piracy?

I personally hope they come out with FSD scramblers or something along those lines. Not permanent, but a 30sec to 2 minute delay, or something along those lines. Until then, I'll just grin and bear it every time I get a "submitter". Might actually open fire on those and not even give the option, because if you submit, you are likely going for that tactic.

Just want to hear opinions on this.

Saunders Out

either get a bigger ship or get some help from other pirates, even NPCs do that, to get the mass disruption on traders FSD
here you go problem solved!

ps. i seriously hope you didn't thought that you can pirate large ship with a one small cobra etc. when the trader knows that not the maximizing cargo space is and should be the priority for safe travel/trading in a harsh universe?
 
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....

Of course.... this awesomeness was cut short by the fact that he submitted to interdiction and warped immediately away (3 times),....

See this is the bit I have a problem with.

The trader had to give up cargo space and jump range for defence options that all require ammo while the pirate gets unlimited attempts at interdiction.

Point defence - ammo
Chaff - ammo
Cells - ammo
repair - ammo (if you run 1, I do and it is saved me more than once)

They all cost money and the cells can run out very quickly while some minor damage for interdiction (which the Trader also gets unless they submit) is nothing in comparison.

Interdiction should be 1 shot at someone and if they get away, then fair play to them for being ready and put on a different instance so you cannot do it again, or Interdictions should cost ammo so you have to pick and choose if you want to keep trying on someone who is ready for you and run up your costs or go looking someone else who is not ready for you. If you had say an ammo of 3 before needing to reload.

In fact they could do it like cell banks, the cheap ones carry less ammo (1 or 2) and the larger expensive ones carry more (4- 5)
 
Trader A - sacrifices all for cargo space. Stands a chance of getting nailed. Deserves it.
Trader B - Smart tactics, skills and loadout. Will escape.

What you are asking for is more of a chance against someone who has invested in and ensured they have minimised the risk pirate scum will run them down.

Working fine IMO.
Have to say I think this is working as intended. They shouldn't be pirate-proof, but at the same time they shouldn't have an I-WIN button necessarily. I was always in favor of having a weapon which specifically targets sub-systems, kind of like one of the guns in Freespace 2.
 

Swings and roundabouts on this one.. not sure what the answer is...

Quick response time by NPC authority vessels in the inner systems.

Would need to be balanced by lowering trade profits in the inner systems/non anarchy systems. Not sure if FD are able to manage their trade model that well yet.
 
If you arm the merchant vessels today with a few chaingun turrets there would be no pirates, but then they have trouble entering most ports of the world, gouvernments take an dim view on ships carrying high powered guns.
It is all risk and reward, as soon piracy annoys the people with the big money enough it will go away.
In the meantime the low paid sailors suffer the piracy, easy as that.

But we are talking here about an game people play to have fun, so find an way to make piracy for freighters fun too or you will have no freighters, it is that simple.

Explain to me honestly why anyone should run an freighter in Elite Dangerous if piracy is silly easy? (as long the person in question is not an masochist offcourse)

You could say the same about banks, shop keepers, jewelry shops, why not have more personnal armed to the teeth in these places? These places still get robbed?

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/criminal-sha-is-a-proper-bank-robber

Well historically piracy/privateering would sometimes get a letters of marque to attack other factions trade ships, and so causing action to be taken for patrolling of these routes during the 15th - 18th century. These were done for many reasons, so to affect the trade and wealth of said nation, and which should be the idea of ED, see planets affected by heavy piracy, and so in reaction causing action to be taken by said faction.

Wiki
England, and later the United Kingdom, used privateers to great effect and suffered much from other nations' privateering. During the 15th century, "piracy became an increasing problem and merchant communities such as Bristol began to resort to self-help, arming and equipping ships at their own expense to protect commerce."[4] These privately owned merchant ships, licensed by the crown, could legitimately take vessels that were deemed pirates. This constituted a "revolution in naval strategy" and helped fill the need for protection that the current administration was unable to provide as it "lacked an institutional structure and coordinated finance."[5][6]

The increase in competition for crews on armed merchant vessels and privateers was due, in a large part, because of the chance for a considerable payoff. "Whereas a seaman who shipped on a naval vessel was paid a wage and provided with victuals, the mariner on a merchantman or privateer was paid with an agreed share of the takings."[5] This proved to be a far more attractive prospect and privateering flourished as a result.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privateer

Which gave birth to the royal merchant navy and the earlier east india company, which had it's own military for protecting it business, the same how home owners and other business pay money to security firms not only for insurance, but a form of protection. I think there should perhaps be a trading guild in the game, that perhaps if you pay into it, the response time of security forces will be quicker, unless your part of a clan and can put together your own guild with your own security, then ED may start to see actual player development and teamwork in game.

Look at the list of the 30 top security firms, some that offer secuirty to homes and business also, but also have there own private army.
http://www.securitydegreehub.com/30-most-powerful-private-security-companies-in-the-world/

Now if looking at modern action taken by piracy, the UN have made efforts to combat piracy, but obviously not to the point of arming said vessels, although it is possible to pay security firms to be armed operative on your vessel. Also it's not like cargo ships are completely without defence in ED much like in the past.

UN official site

He added that the past year alone saw 286 piracy-related incidents off the coast of Somalia, resulting in 67 hijacked ships, with 1,130 seafarers on board; while a recent study estimated the cost to the world economy from disruptions to international trade at between $7 billion and $12 billion.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=37457



Also today, they have stepped up measures, but piracy still continues, although somlia pirates are hardly as well funded like the pirates from the 15-17th century.

Telegraph

Eight ways to protect a ship

• Armed guards

These have become standard for many ships sailing through Somali waters in 2013. A large ship now typically sails with four guards. The industry has been dominated by British firms and guards who have had careers in the military, particularly highly experienced former Royal Marines who have been keen to cash in on their skills.

• Sound guns

A sonic weapon called a Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD), similar to devices used for crowd control, has been fitted to several ships. The LRAD emits an intolerable beam of sound to drive off attackers. Operators say the device can be hard to focus on a fast-moving skiff.

• Lasers

In 2011 the British arms firm BAE Systems developed an anti-pirate laser to dazzle approaching pirates. The firm said the green beam was strong enough to make it impossible to aim weapons into its path and was effective at up to a mile but would not permanently damage eyesight.

• Water cannons

High-pressure cannons or hoses spraying from the ship are designed to blow away pirates as they try to scale the ship’s sides, or to swamp their tiny craft as they approach. They can be fitted with remote controls and operated from safety if the pirates open fire.

• Razor wire, cages and electric fences

Ships have bolstered physical defences with layers of barriers, wire and cages in a process called “hardening”. The defences are designed to stop pirates getting aboard and, if they do, to stop them reaching the crew.

• Boat traps

Nets or wires can be used to snare and entangle the propellers of pirate skiffs as they approach.

• Foam

Slippery anti-traction foam can be sprayed over a ship’s sides or decks to hamper pirates as they try to climb aboard.

• Foul-smelling liquid

Devices shoot slicks of foul-smelling liquid which can cause a burning sensation on the skin, causing pirates to break off their attack or jump in the water to clean themselves, according to designers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsore...10367534/security-against-pirate-attacks.html


Now to conclude, im not asking for piracy to be made easy, but i'm just asking to make it not impossible, think of the possibilities of ED players forming there own east india companies, security firms, to combat piracy and ensure a prospering trade, not to mention the opposite of let say privateers/pirates harrasing trade routes to affect said system economy either for personnal gain or to weaken an enemy faction.

I understand traders just want to be left to trade in peace and quiet, but in the bigger scheme of things surely by choosing to trade in a certain system means your having an effect on that system, that may not be in the interest of another aligned ED player representing another faction. Otherwise i really can't see the point of contributing anything in the verse, if the game only promotes postive actions, and no need for merging of players to protect mutal interest if operating in certain systems.

Piracy atm is hardly a lucrative trade, and so the element of danger is hardly has great has some traders make it out to be, the developers if they are good, should be able to balance the game as such that piracy can be profitable without having to blow your prey away, even somlia pirates/bank robbers don't wiped everyone out on board most of the time, and only seek a quick pay day. Piracy can still be difficult, but right now, it's impossible.
 
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The whole point is not about mass lock and what not.

WHAT IS IN IT FOR THE FREIGHTER?

Right now, an interdiction i loose costs me to start with about 50.000 Cr.

At this point i had not not my fun out of it.

As it is (game mechanics) as long the pirate is not total incompetent he splatters chaff rendering my turrets, the only thing that could hit him useless...

So my only option is to wait out cooldown and try to get away.

Yes, my idea of an funny afternoon, big repair bill, and lucky if i get not mass locked, and be honest, the pirates who start an nice chat and go away for the price of some loot are rather rare.

Give my slow ship that turns slow and is expensive to repair after each interdiction decent armor and weapons that make it hard for pirates to get past.

Piracy versus trading the risk reward is on the pirates side, the freighter has only the risk and even if he manages to jump out already a fat repair bill waiting at next port. (if he plays the interdiction game, and an t9 WILL loose most the time because it has abysmal turn rates in the interdiction game.

I have really not the faintest what the devs have thought setting it up, but nothing that has to do with online gameplay where you do not have an game master who oversees things and pitches the challenge just right.

Piracy is easy with three factions, you can hunt in two and stay clean in one, npc police is slow to show up, and freighters are laughable in there defense.

It may work in an single player game settign as it is, but it will not work in an multiplayer game for the simple reason that people get around limitations always.

So if you make the freighter depend on outside help to defend itself in an meaningfull way there will be no freighters.

In my opinion you are missing the point trading is by far the easiest method of making money and there is zero risk if you are interdicted by a pirate there should be nothing in it for the trader apart from damage mitigation, a trader should have to way up the risk in running and if he feels that running is not viable then maybe give up a portion of cargo, I understand that Elite is primarily a space trading sim however there needs to be some risks involved in trading because as it stands now trading is completely risk free, you keep saying what is in it for the trader but the real question is what is in it for the pirate.

I am a trader by the way but would actually like there to be a bit of risk involved in trading so that the routine money making is made a little bit more fun by some player interaction, so come at me you pirates.
 
Perhaps another way of looking at this is to ask the question of why are Pirates hunting players?

The reason as far as I can see is that it's not easier, but it's just that it's potentially more profitable.

Players haul valuable cargos, all the time, almost exclusively. NPCs haul pot luck - sometimes its good, more often it's rubbish or nothing at all (what Trader worth the title hauls nothing? It's absurd - NPC or not).

NPCs are relatively easy to pirate, I've had some wanted traders in my bounty hunting that have happily shedded cargo in order to dissuade me from taking their heads. But what they drop is often not worth the time to pick it up.

If NPC traders were a more lucrative prospect, then pirates could make a decent living out of their profession and there wouldn't be so much of this desperation to make PC traders more viable targets.

This idea applies to the other conflict based profession - the Bounty Hunter, I've hunted far more NPC bounties than I ever have players - because it's worth doing.
 
Kinda makes sencse that the Trader has the advantage. If somebody would for example devolope a Technologie to stop someone from FSD for a while, how long do you think it would take someone to create a counter Technology for the Traders?
They are after all pretty wealthy for the most part and should have some kind of Influence, all in all if anything Traders should have a clear technological advantage over Pirates.


At least that tells me would be logical looking at it from a lore-perspectiv, which maybe is not always the best thing for Gameplay.
 
Piracy is illegal. It should be the form of game play that requires the most RISK, most SKILL and if successful most REWARD.
In that case the risk needs to go up, but so does the reward. Even if you make black market prices in line with commodities prices, you're still going to have shift the balance in favour of the pirate in these encounters before that's the case.

There's plenty of ways of increasing the risk. Some are similar: nastier interdictions help bounty hunters. Strong NPCs make things more worrisome.
 
I can see several avenues where cooperation amongst pirates would bypass many of the complaints we see here.

Type-6 can't be mass locked by a Cobra? Interdict it with another Type-6 and have your buddy, who is in the Cobra, drop in immediately behind you.
This can work. Added entertainment as the target has no idea what's going on at all.

The problem is that dropping on a wake is very fiddly. Sometimes you can do it in 10 seconds, but that's rare.

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Have to say I think this is working as intended. They shouldn't be pirate-proof, but at the same time they shouldn't have an I-WIN button necessarily. I was always in favor of having a weapon which specifically targets sub-systems, kind of like one of the guns in Freespace 2.
They are pirate proof. You don't have to be clever, you have to have somebody who has told you how to be clever. If you're in a Type-6 with sheilds, a Cobra will not take anything from you if you follow the procedure.

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See this is the bit I have a problem with.

The trader had to give up cargo space and jump range for defence options that all require ammo while the pirate gets unlimited attempts at interdiction.

Point defence - ammo
Chaff - ammo
Cells - ammo
repair - ammo (if you run 1, I do and it is saved me more than once)

They all cost money and the cells can run out very quickly while some minor damage for interdiction (which the Trader also gets unless they submit) is nothing in comparison.

Interdiction should be 1 shot at someone and if they get away, then fair play to them for being ready and put on a different instance so you cannot do it again, or Interdictions should cost ammo so you have to pick and choose if you want to keep trying on someone who is ready for you and run up your costs or go looking someone else who is not ready for you. If you had say an ammo of 3 before needing to reload.

In fact they could do it like cell banks, the cheap ones carry less ammo (1 or 2) and the larger expensive ones carry more (4- 5)
I think you're on very shaky ground if you're trying to argue about money. Traders make a lot more money than pirates. If anything the balance should be more in favour of forcing traders to use the gizmos to stand a chance. If I take a haul off somebody, it's very rare I take more than 10t. I'd expect the Type-6s to still make a profit on that run, despite being pirated. The "cost" balance is well in the trader's favour at the moment.

Also, if you make interdiction a 1 shot chance, I will kill a lot more traders. Simply enough, I often leave people on low health because I know I can probably interdict them again, at which point we can have a civilised discussion about them dropping some cargo for me. Essentially, once you've spun up your FSD, I'd be shooting to kill. Right now I'm not, and could get the kill in a lot of cases against a lot of people.
 
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Kinda makes sencse that the Trader has the advantage. If somebody would for example devolope a Technologie to stop someone from FSD for a while, how long do you think it would take someone to create a counter Technology for the Traders?
They are after all pretty wealthy for the most part and should have some kind of Influence, all in all if anything Traders should have a clear technological advantage over Pirates.


At least that tells me would be logical looking at it from a lore-perspectiv, which maybe is not always the best thing for Gameplay.
You're right, a well equipped Type-6 should have the advantage over a Cobra.

Should, however, the best Cobra pilot in the world be unable to steal from the worst Type-6 driver in the world who happens to know the three buttons you need to press (and the order you need to press them in) to escape? I think not.

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Perhaps another way of looking at this is to ask the question of why are Pirates hunting players?

The reason as far as I can see is that it's not easier, but it's just that it's potentially more profitable.

Players haul valuable cargos, all the time, almost exclusively. NPCs haul pot luck - sometimes its good, more often it's rubbish or nothing at all (what Trader worth the title hauls nothing? It's absurd - NPC or not).

NPCs are relatively easy to pirate, I've had some wanted traders in my bounty hunting that have happily shedded cargo in order to dissuade me from taking their heads. But what they drop is often not worth the time to pick it up.

If NPC traders were a more lucrative prospect, then pirates could make a decent living out of their profession and there wouldn't be so much of this desperation to make PC traders more viable targets.

This idea applies to the other conflict based profession - the Bounty Hunter, I've hunted far more NPC bounties than I ever have players - because it's worth doing.
I don't target the players for money. I do it because it's more fun. I've found very little in this game that could be considered challenging outside interaction with other players. The only way to make solid money that I know of, which involves interaction with other players, is to pirate them.
 
In my opinion you are missing the point trading is by far the easiest method of making money and there is zero risk if you are interdicted by a pirate there should be nothing in it for the trader apart from damage mitigation, a trader should have to way up the risk in running and if he feels that running is not viable then maybe give up a portion of cargo, I understand that Elite is primarily a space trading sim however there needs to be some risks involved in trading because as it stands now trading is completely risk free, you keep saying what is in it for the trader but the real question is what is in it for the pirate.

I am a trader by the way but would actually like there to be a bit of risk involved in trading so that the routine money making is made a little bit more fun by some player interaction, so come at me you pirates.

I am not against the concept in itself.
What annoys me is that if i loose one ship + cargo in ED it easy summs up to 9 mill, that is a high loss not reflectect by the gains.
Lets say I get blown up every three days that means i would hardly break even. (and i am talking about free days where i do nothing but play)

As i see it the challenge is on the traders side, not the pirates, freighters should be slow hard to break fortresses.

If you want to use roleplay terms they should be somethign like an main tank, hard to kill but not very good at offensive.

Ramp up trading gains, make freighters sturdy vessels with not so great firepower and we have the awesome fights.

If i take an python for trading i can shoot up most pirates and run easy from the rest with about the same capacity in freight as in an t9 kittet for serious piracy defense, but the t9 is if kittet decently more than double the python in terms of money, but has abysmal jumprange and turn rates.

So why have a freighter line if they are nothign than an more expensive and slower version of the cheaper and better multipurpose hulls?

I traded lots with a python and that thing just plows through npc pirates where the t9 is an hair raising affair and carries not much more if kittet for fights.

Make trading vesself sturdy and remove the penalty for weapons on jump range and traders and pirates can slug it out

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The trading systhem is weird. We have grain for example, that should be the thing where t9 is king, mass haulage, but the prices are so abysmal there that it does not cover fuel.
Precious metals should be very low numbers so they are interesting for small fast freighters who can evade of fight off pirates, freighter should have such an capacity that grain and other mass products are interesting to transport
But there is stupid numbers of precious metalls and it is about the only thing that really makes it worth having an big freighter.
 
Trading is not the easiest, bounty hunting npc though is, i made more there than with trading, but trading is more fun for me, as long i get not pwnd every meter by pirates that is.
Original elite was trading and sitting in an ship able to defend itself, balanced.
Now elite is paper hulled freighters and agile high powered fighters chasing them.
 
I am not against the concept in itself.
What annoys me is that if i loose one ship + cargo in ED it easy summs up to 9 mill, that is a high loss not reflectect by the gains.
Lets say I get blown up every three days that means i would hardly break even. (and i am talking about free days where i do nothing but play)
Pirates won't blow you up if they're good at their game, and if you're good at yours. There's no profit in killing you, only in getting you to drop your cargo, either through the cargo menu, or by blasting your hatch/limpeting it. IMO the best way to deal with a pirate is to start runing as fast as you can, while at the same time dropping 10t of good stuff. If he's a pirate he'll go for the good stuff and let you go, if he's trying to kill you then he's not a pirate. You shouldn't meet that many people trying to kill you, you'll meet a lot more pirates.
 
You're right, a well equipped Type-6 should have the advantage over a Cobra.

Should, however, the best Cobra pilot in the world be unable to steal from the worst Type-6 driver in the world who happens to know the three buttons you need to press (and the order you need to press them in) to escape? I think not.

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I don't target the players for money. I do it because it's more fun. I've found very little in this game that could be considered challenging outside interaction with other players. The only way to make solid money that I know of, which involves interaction with other players, is to pirate them.

You do present one of the more balanced arguments here, from your previous posts. But piracy shouldn't be synonymous with PvP, and that's what the majority of the pro-piracy arguments here suggest. Unless we do have a plague of sociopaths on ours hands (and I don't think we do), I still maintain that addressing the time vs. reward for what represents the majority of content (PvE) is a better avenue to explore.
 
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