Pitch Roll and Acceleration for (nearly) Everyship.

[DragoonKnight]

So at zero throttle and full throttle an Anaconda turns faster than all the Cobra tier ships, Asp tier ships except the Vulture (then only a little slower), and turns MUCH faster than Python or FDL.

Suffice to say that is completely ridiculous for something as huge as that, and explains why fighting an Elite one is so hard when they boost away and flip around on a dime -- because they literally turn faster than a fighter with a tiny fraction of its mass at full or zero throttle.

I've gotta ask if that is a bug or if it's working as intended.

Because, again, that's ridiculous.

Edit-- also massive, long and heavy Imperial Clippers turn better than Vipers in the blue zone. Come on, really?

If you have doubts how well a clipper can pitch then go fly one and you will see.

 

[Ziljan]

Very cool. Well done, and thanks!!!!

 

[Yokoshima]

'Try' to get close if you can. I am always trying to get as close to larger ships as I can when fighting. They will often end up presenting there tops or undersides for extended periods as they try maneuver. If you can get this right it is often possible to sit just 'above' and off the back of them and murder them.

It's a tricky thing to explain how to do. I had the very same issue you describe for a long time. Now I find it easy, yet difficult to express what has changed in my flying to bring about this change. These days I do most of my fighting in a FDL and it eats big ships alive. I did spend some time trying the Clipper and it works as well, but I dislike the ship. (I can see why people like it and use it for PvP, as it can carry lots of shield cells, and that is all PvP is about), but it's underlying shields are rubbish and it's weapon load out and placement are terrible. It will be interesting to see if the Clipper becomes a thing of the past when the 1.4 CSB changes hit.

Pretty much this. To expand on this: In order to keep something from looking at you, you need more than maneuverability. You need speed as well. The reason smaller ships are so effective against big ships is because once they get in close, they tend to stay there. If you find yourself head to head with a Conda at less than 800m, DON'T boost. You will overshoot and have to start all over again. I know it seems counter intuitive but put all pips to shields and go full throttle towards the Conda (or similar ship). Use your vertical thrusters to get above or below them, then an FA off pivot if need be to face their side or top. Keep using your vertical thrusters, this will force the Conda into a much wider turing arc, and it makes it's huge size a physical hindrance. Remember that with FA off not only do you turn "faster", but you can actually make much better use out of your lateral thrusters maximum potential. So just tap the button as needed. With this setup any ship with a couple of thermal weapons (or one beam if you must) and 2 C2 multi cannons will hammer a ship's power plant and bing you a quick and (once you get the hang of it) easy victory against such a ship. Mind you this is mostly for PvE. Though this works for PvP, you will have to adapt and change it up a bit more.

 

[Cliffson]

Updated for new FDL turn rates, major improvement -1.5s to Pitch (50) -3.5s to pitch (0) -1s to pitch (100).

Also added Yaw(50) for FDL, will add others overtime.

Thanks for the message of support all.

 

[Skyrun]

Great post! Very valuable information. How is the situation with FAOFF ?

 

[Yokoshima]

Updated for new FDL turn rates, major improvement -1.5s to Pitch (50) -3.5s to pitch (0) -1s to pitch (100).

Also added Yaw(50) for FDL, will add others overtime.

Thanks for the message of support all.

Holy crap.

If you have the time, could you add the type-9? Your list is pretty comprehensive and I feel you would do a much better job than I could. That and I don't even have the cash for a type-9 atm...

 

[SilverOfDemacia]

You say that the 0 pip speed ratio is 100% speed only and that rotation is affected differently for each ship, does this mean that there is another independent value for each ship that determines the way engine pips affect rotation that needs to be found?
Would that number be similar in that you could take the ship that has the highest speed ratio and count on it having the highest rotation ratio as well or could it be entirely different?

 

[Ziljan]

Just clarification, boosts seem low. FDL at 350? And Cobra at 400? That seems way too low unless it's the base model?

Also the prior FDL 50% 4 pip turn rate was ~10s iirc. So 9.7 seems a bit slow for an agility enhanced FDL.

 

[Cliffson]

Great post! Very valuable information. How is the situation with FAOFF ?

Short answer, it's complicated. In practice I've generally found that it's a tiny bit quicker, but I've not done any real testing. Like I said in the original post it's really only for comparison and interest, once you start adding FA-off, thrusters assisted turning etc the situation gets different,( and a lot more complicated.)

You say that the 0 pip speed ratio is 100% speed only and that rotation is affected differently for each ship, does this mean that there is another independent value for each ship that determines the way engine pips affect rotation that needs to be found?
Would that number be similar in that you could take the ship that has the highest speed ratio and count on it having the highest rotation ratio as well or could it be entirely different?

There might be, it'll require more testing. Here's an old thread with some research into pips,note how everything gets slower at optimal speed but the viper and cobra get faster when at full speed (which is now lower). The viper aso gets worse with more pips when at 0 speed. It's possible that it may be a unique to each ship. It is something I want to look into. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60051

Just clarification, boosts seem low. FDL at 350? And Cobra at 400? That seems way too low unless it's the base model?

Also the prior FDL 50% 4 pip turn rate was ~10s iirc. So 9.7 seems a bit slow for an agility enhanced FDL.

Yes these are all "optimal" mass speeds. Half optimal mass speeds with those two ships are then ~16% greater giving 406 and 464 respectively.

I had the FDL clocked at ~11s before 1.5.3, its definitely nippier now.

Holy crap.

If you have the time, could you add the type-9? Your list is pretty comprehensive and I feel you would do a much better job than I could. That and I don't even have the cash for a type-9 atm...

I'll see what I can do....

 

[Poseidal]

The better pitch really allows fixed weapons to be used more effectively on the beta FDL.

 

[Oogie Boogie]

This is really excellent work +1.

Reallized resently that the top speed of the Corvette with 0 pips on ENG is around 105 ! And it feld like a brick. As 4 pips SYS and 2 WEP is normally the PVP fight configuration - a 0 pips on ENG could be a valuable information as well.

Again well done !

 

[matemaster]

my combat vulture with A thrusters boosts up to 398

 

[Heavenly-Hammer]

Great thread. Thank you again for the work.

 

[Yokoshima]

Nice update! Getting more and more comprehensive. +rep

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Is it just me or is the CONDA incredible agilee in the pitch department?

For a ship with a maneuverability score of 2 it seems rather nimble

That's at max speeds. An eagle in its sweet spot is flying at ~ 120 is we assume the sweet spot is exactly half. The Conda's is 90. That and the Eagle can change its speed easily so it can get back to its sweet spot easily. So overall the Eagle is still much more agile, and faster while doing it.

That being said, the Conda's falloff is pretty good.

 

[puca]

OP, great work! Is it possible to do 50% thruster assisted pitch also?

 

[Cliffson]

OP, great work! Is it possible to do 50% thruster assisted pitch also?

Not in any reliable way I think, as it involves skill it's not something I can repeat reliably to get an 'accurate figure'. I am considering doing a "How fast can I get something to turn" test on a few ships to see how much quicker playing with thrusters can make it though.

 

[puca]

Really? Holding the UP thrusters on a pitch turn will generate faster turn times reliably and requires no skill (this is not optimal always, but allows one to measure differences in ship thruster power on turning).

 

[Cliffson]

Really? Holding the UP thrusters on a pitch turn will generate faster turn times reliably and requires no skill (this is not optimal always, but allows one to measure differences in ship thruster power on turning).

Ah, in that case something like that is measurable yes. I assumed you meant achieving the optimum amount of thrust usage and timing, which will likely involve using just the right amount of thrust. I'll try out a few things and see what happens.

-- First test on the Viper 4, holding thrust up while throttle is set to 50% makes it slower, going from 11 - 12 seconds (ship is A-rated below optimal mass at the moment), so it doesn't seem to make it reliably quicker.

 

[jgm]

Just a thought on your pitch/roll/yaw numbers after looking at them for comparison: I think they would look more natural if they were phrased in degrees/sec rather than time-to-turn 360 degrees.

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Ah, in that case something like that is measurable yes. I assumed you meant achieving the optimum amount of thrust usage and timing, which will likely involve using just the right amount of thrust. I'll try out a few things and see what happens.

-- First test on the Viper 4, holding thrust up while throttle is set to 50% makes it slower, going from 11 - 12 seconds (ship is A-rated below optimal mass at the moment), so it doesn't seem to make it reliably quicker.

You might not be able to see it due to the HUD movement but it's possible that adding the thrust takes overall throttle out of the blue zone. It might work better if you did it with FA off (although it might not; can't honestly say that I've tested it).

 

[Draco25240]

Great work CMDR, repped! I was actually pulling together a list like this too, but it appears you beat me to it I was using more values for all thruster grades independently though, so I was using a lot longer to make mine
Example:

Spoiler

Fer-De-Lance
http://coriolis.io/outfit/fer_de_la...30i0n4a5e032o69.AwRj4yrI.CwBjEZJAmXbBIoGZlA==

5D thrusters (385.9 tons, Flight Assist On)
Turn speed (optimal, 0 pips): ~120 m/s
Turn speed (optimal, 4 pips): ~145 m/s
Turning time (optimal, 0 pips): 13.6s
Turning time (optimal, 4 pips): 11.3s
Turning time (0 m/s, 0 pips): 32.5s
Turning time (0 m/s, 4 pips): 26.4s
Turning time (top speed, 0 pips): 43.4s
Turning time (top speed, 4 pips): 19.3s, drifts
Top speed (0 pips): 229 m/s
Top speed (4 pips): 271 m/s
Boost (0 pips, 1 boost): 365 m/s
Boost (4 pips, 1 boost): 365 m/s
Boost (4 pips, 2 boosts): 365 m/s
0 -> 229 (0 pips): 9.5s
229 -> 0 (0 pips): 10s
0 -> 271 (4 pips): 11.8s
271 -> 0 (4 pips): 11.8s

5A thrusters (397.9 tons, Flight Assist On)
Turn speed (optimal, 0 pips): ~130 m/s
Turn speed (optimal, 4 pips): ~152 m/s, drifts
Turning time (optimal, 0 pips): 12.3s
Turning time (optimal, 4 pips): 10.7s
Turning time (0 m/s, 0 pips): 30.2s
Turning time (0 m/s, 4 pips): 34.4s
Turning time (top speed, 0 pips): 39.8s
Turning time (top speed, 4 pips): 18.0s, drifts
Top speed (0 pips): 254 m/s
Top speed (4 pips): 300 m/s
Boost (0 pips, 1 boost): 404 m/s
Boost (4 pips, 1 boost): 405 m/s
Boost (4 pips, 2 boosts): 405 m/s
0 -> 254 (0 pips): 9.4s
254 -> 0 (0 pips): 10.1s
0 -> 300 (4 pips): 11.0s
300 -> 0 (4 pips): 11.7s

To-do:
Yaw, assisted turns, Flight Assist Off

optimal = exact center of the blue zone
drifts = ship loses "traction"/control while turning and starts sliding/spinning out, severely slowing down the turning (because the thrust bar goes outside of optimal)