PLEASE MAKE POWERPLAY IN "OPEN ONLY"

Potential gain, potential loss - unknown at this time. The principle is what the game we all bought is based on - wanting Frontier to stick to what they have sold us all is hardly an unreasonable position.
ED is a 'game as a service' so its subject to change. Its not held to the DDF or the past in that regard.

Some backers / players have been trying to get Frontier to move away from their stance on PvP for well over six years now, variously demanding the complete removal of Solo and Private Groups, removing the effect of Solo and Private Groups on the game, introducing incentives for playing in Open, etc.. Much to the chagrin of those demanding an Open only BGS, the Devs reiterated who the BGS is actually for in the BGS & Scenarios stream of last year.

That notwithstanding, we await Frontier's decision on which changes they are prepared to make to Powerplay based on a subset of those contained in Sandro's first Flash Topic. They will, as always, make their own decision for their own reasons (e.g. removal of UA bombing).
FD surely sit down saying: this part caters for x, while this caters for y. They must also realize by now some features don't fit in certain ways.

FD must also realise that ED is in dire need of emergent content generated by the game. The automated BGS system provides some of that, Powerplay can do that too but its currently hamstrung by modes that bring everything down to bar chart chasing.

Early on FD saw how much dev input is needed with Powerplay, and how many times they botched tending it. The evidence is quite clear how they backed away from direct intervention to the point of ignoring it. Misleading Galnet stories, promised features not appearing (like collapse), data not being posted, server problems, Power decals appearing late and incomplete, PP bobbleheads being stuck in limbo, it just goes on and on.

At least with an Open Powerplay it allows pledges to entertain each other as they fight for dominance. It might not be content for everyone, but its given ED something it did not have before made from a 'dead' feature essentially for free using whats already avaialble. But as you say, 'Potential gain, potential loss - unknown at this time.'
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
ED is a 'game as a service' so its subject to change. Its not held to the DDF or the past in that regard.
Some things change, some things rather obviously do not. While the game may not be held to the past, remember who set the ground rules in the design of the game in the first place.
FD surely sit down saying: this part caters for x, while this caters for y. They must also realize by now some features don't fit in certain ways.

FD must also realise that ED is in dire need of emergent content generated by the game. The automated BGS system provides some of that, Powerplay can do that too but its currently hamstrung by modes that bring everything down to bar chart chasing.

Early on FD saw how much dev input is needed with Powerplay, and how many times they botched tending it. The evidence is quite clear how they backed away from direct intervention to the point of ignoring it. Misleading Galnet stories, promised features not appearing (like collapse), data not being posted, server problems, Power decals appearing late and incomplete, PP bobbleheads being stuck in limbo, it just goes on and on.

At least with an Open Powerplay it allows pledges to entertain each other as they fight for dominance. It might not be content for everyone, but its given ED something it did not have before made from a 'dead' feature essentially for free using whats already avaialble. But as you say, 'Potential gain, potential loss - unknown at this time.'
The whole game caters to those who accept pan-modal feature implementation - and has done from the outset. That some players backed / bought the game and don't accept pan-modal features is obvious - whether Frontier choose to accede to any of their demands remains to be seen.

It rather depends on where Frontier's "red lines" are - as I suspect that the Open only part of the Flash Topic might have been pushing one of them a bit more than a bit, given the lack of mono-modal content in the game to date.
 
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Some things change, some things rather obviously do not. While the game may not be held to the past, remember who set the ground rules in the design of the game in the first place.

The whole game caters to those who accept pan-modal feature implementation - and has done from the outset. That some players backed / bought the game and don't accept pan-modal features is obvious - whether Frontier choose to accede to any of their demands remains to be seen.

It rather depends on where Frontier's "red lines" are - as I suspect that the Open only part of the Flash Topic might have been pushing one of them a bit more than a bit, given the lack of mono-modal content in the game to date.
CQC nonwithstanding I assume. Its part but not a part I take it.

While the BGS is not suitable for Open only and won't change (which is fine by be) Powerplay is- singular cargoes, singular pledges, limited goals. But its stuck, pinned by people who dislike the idea of making it different even though it has merit. FD need to get off the fence and make a direct choice- Brookes brought the feature in, Sandro thought about its future and now.....? Nothing. The nihilist in me thinks FD feel its too much work to either improve it or remove it so they just leave it. I hope somewhere they care, because it has always had a lot of potential.

And to be frank nothing since has actually required a similar choice. Exploration, mining, BGS etc stand to gain nothing from being in a single mode.

Now, if FD actually went back to basics and made a solid Powerplay V2 that catered for everyone and was properly balanced across modes, I'd be overjoyed. But they already have done that with the BGS, so what now?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
CQC nonwithstanding I assume. Its part but not a part I take it.
CQC/Arena notwithstanding indeed - it's a tacked on feature that has virtually no bearing on the game (bar a singular system permit for a paltry 3% discount and a few credits).
While the BGS is not suitable for Open only and won't change (which is fine by be) Powerplay is- singular cargoes, singular pledges, limited goals. But its stuck, pinned by people who dislike the idea of making it different even though it has merit. FD need to get off the fence and make a direct choice- Brookes brought the feature in, Sandro thought about its future and now.....? Nothing. The nihilist in me thinks FD feel its too much work to either improve it or remove it so they just leave it. I hope somewhere they care, because it has always had a lot of potential.

And to be frank nothing since has actually required a similar choice. Exploration, mining, BGS etc stand to gain nothing from being in a single mode.
There are those who would disagree strongly with the contention that the BGS is not suitable for Open only - some have been demanding it for years - especially as it relates to PMFs being affected by players in Solo or Private Groups.

Different people have different ideas with regards to what potential the game or its features have.
Now, if FD actually went back to basics and made a solid Powerplay V2 that catered for everyone and was properly balanced across modes, I'd be overjoyed. But they already have done that with the BGS, so what now?
A Powerplay V2 need not be restricted - in the same way that Powerplay is not restricted. Unrestricted it would benefit more players.
 
I'm getting to the point that I'm running out of things to do and was looking at Power-Play or doing some BGS Stuff. However nothing has been done to fix the Power-Play game mode in years, so that's putting me off.

I've always said that 'Open Mode Only' would fix most of the issues the game mode has. However, there are must be a way for power-play rewards to be made available for people who can't fly in open. These rewards could be locked behind tech brokers with requirements equal to the Power-Play ones. (i.e. very big ones).

I know that, due to development resources, Frontier fix problems where the players are but if Powerplay just got that little bit of attention it could be a place where consensual PvP could thrive.

(And don't get me started on CQC, it needs a Lobby!!!)
 
CQC/Arena notwithstanding indeed - it's a tacked on feature that has virtually no bearing on the game (bar a singular system permit for a paltry 3% discount and a few credits).

There are those who would disagree strongly with the contention that the BGS is not suitable for Open only - some have been demanding it for years - especially as it relates to PMFs being affected by players in Solo or Private Groups.

Different people have different ideas with regards to what potential the game or its features have.

A Powerplay V2 need not be restricted - in the same way that Powerplay is not restricted. Unrestricted it would benefit more players.
But this is my point; you have the best Powerplay design right now in the form of the 3.x BGS. So what is to be done with Powerplay? How can it be made different to the BGS to make players drop in and retain them? The design we have now has not done that, most of the changes in the proposal hopefully mitigate the current flaws- but what then? You have taken steps but ultimately remained still.

Or think of it this way: On day 2 after this proposal comes in, what will people be saying? Its the same grindy mess just less 5C sans Open, or will they be thinking up new strategies, tweaking ship designs etc with Open? One brings about new possibilities, while the other keeps Powerplay as it is, i.e. a failed feature.
 
Bottom line, if FDev cares what the player base thinks on this issue, they should survey their player. If they don't care, then it's easiest for them to ignore the debate altogether, but that just means it's gonna keep surfacing.
Even if they did a survey and managed to avoid fake votes being counted and the majority, came down in favour of the status quo. Those that want this implemented, would still be making treads, demanding a change.
 
Oooh removing powerplay.... now that would put the cat amongst the pidgeons.
But would it, really? The nail in the coffin, for me, was when ALD 'took over' the main Federal Navy home system and absolutely nothing happened in the rest of the game. Nothing said, this is a powerless, meaningless overlay that really amounts to little more that painting a colour on one Galmap view, then that.

PP needs a total re-design. And that is very unlikely to happen.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
But this is my point; you have the best Powerplay design right now in the form of the 3.x BGS. So what is to be done with Powerplay? How can it be made different to the BGS to make players drop in and retain them? The design we have now has not done that, most of the changes in the proposal hopefully mitigate the current flaws- but what then? You have taken steps but ultimately remained still.

Or think of it this way: On day 2 after this proposal comes in, what will people be saying? Its the same grindy mess just less 5C sans Open, or will they be thinking up new strategies, tweaking ship designs etc with Open? One brings about new possibilities, while the other keeps Powerplay as it is, i.e. a failed feature.
Powerplay is already fundamentally different to the BGS in that there are only eleven Powers, rather than a few thousand player Factions (and many more NPC factions) that players are spread out between (if they choose to affect a Faction at all).

On day 2 it depends on who one is referring to - only those whose optional playstyle Powerplay would be gated behind would likely still be thinking about it at all in a positive way. New possibilities for some equals the removal of a feature for others.
 
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Powerplay is already fundamentally different to the BGS in that there are only eleven Powers, rather than a few thousand player Factions (and many more NPC factions) that players are spread out between (if they choose to affect a Faction at all).

On day 2 it depends on who one is referring to - only those whose optional playstyle Powerplay would be gated behind would likely still be thinking about it at all in a positive way. New possibilities for some equals the removal of a feature for others.
You are not getting it though: the conceptual reason for both the BGS and Powerplay are the same, since a Power or faction cannot collapse and be removed. They both expand, they both retreat. They are both sensitive to undermining (and feed back that undermining) and both have combat and hauling. The greatest difference is one costs you money and time, while the other rewards you money for playing at the same time for succeeding.

And in my example, at least Powerplay then was in ED for a reason. Right now? Sell me the idea of Powerplay, and then do the same for the BGS. What lore/ gameplay/outcome/reward do you get from both?
 
But would it, really? The nail in the coffin, for me, was when ALD 'took over' the main Federal Navy home system and absolutely nothing happened in the rest of the game. Nothing said, this is a powerless, meaningless overlay that really amounts to little more that painting a colour on one Galmap view, then that.

PP needs a total re-design. And that is very unlikely to happen.
Unfortunately for both pro-open-only and anti-open-only who are both interested in seeing improvements to PP, as things stand, this seems the most probable, at least for the forseeable future. Maybe after the next major update, and after they iron out all the bugs with that, then maybe they will take another look at PP.

Until then, changing to open only changes what modes it works it, it doesn't improve the underlying gameplay. Open only may, or may not, improve the experience for some, while worsening it for others... we wouldn't know that for sure unless tested, but its not going to create a significant net improvement overall, and may create a net worsening.
 
Unfortunately for both pro-open-only and anti-open-only who are both interested in seeing improvements to PP, as things stand, this seems the most probable, at least for the forseeable future. Maybe after the next major update, and after they iron out all the bugs with that, then maybe they will take another look at PP.

Until then, changing to open only changes what modes it works it, it doesn't improve the underlying gameplay. Open only may, or may not, improve the experience for some, while worsening it for others... we wouldn't know that for sure unless tested, but its not going to create a significant net improvement overall, and may create a net worsening.
Thats the only way to know one way or the other, and thats to test it. Three months (about 12 cycles) would be enough to see if Open only truly works with the other changes. If after that its judged to not bring decent benefits then switch it back.
 
Module shoppers would have no need to pledge to get what they want.



I've explained in great detail several times over in this thread how different it would be, however to summarize the main action would be around capitals, prep and combat expansions, with the rest being opportunistic. IMO miles better than Solo or PG because players are spontaneous,

far from most players do not enjoy the freedom to do alot of things just before the tick... because of in what timezone they are located in

Source? See I can play this game too. Now its you making sweeping statements while I've watch players drop merits at the last minute each week every week.



The 3 Open Powerplay Modes across XB, PS and PC. Currently 3 modes x 3 platforms = 9




Started well, yes we have 11 powers.



What about UM? Thats 4.



The last time I checked Powers don't attack every one else simeltaneously, as fun as that would be.



'Top 10 list'- you mean the Preparation list? Expansions?



Ever heard of Discord, where teams co-ordinate? The tool that Powerplay communities use week in, week out? And that we have things called 'objectives' where after one or two days it becomes obvious what the other side wants. For example prep races. You may have 10 systems listed (mostly 5C) but via consolidation that often gets down to zero or one. And then, as if by magic you know where your enemy is.

Same for expansions. Once it kicks off you know where they will be. Fortifying is safer because you can do that at any time, and UM is the same. However since fort traffic is one way, you have to be careful, and smart opposition will monitor when things happen.



And I just outlined why all that is incorrect supposition. There are no 333 conflicts- this is a mathmatical construct does not fit typical (or even hypothetical) Powerplay behaviour.

In Sandros proposal:

You have per power anything from 38 to 110 systems for fortification.You can opportunistically come across someone in a control system, but that would be random. But still that chance is >0, and that some systems are very valuable and must be forted at all costs, while others are less valuable and some are not forted at all in the hope any turmoil would make them fall off (so your base CC improves).

Capitals would be the smart choice to raid, cutting out the need to go hunting (unless you felt like it or planned it). So out of all those 1000's of places you have 11 capitals to hit that would do as much disruption fort wise. This does not even include upstream UM as well further destabilizing that fortification with the new rules. A power that scouts will know from station reports what is being hit.

Last cycle (as an illustration) there was 4(?) expansions to fight in out of 11 powers. Now, if powers find holding the amount territory difficult this will change and you will see more being fought over. But, powers do not fight everyone else. The Feds and Archon fight ZYADA, LYR , Antal and Mahon don't fight (being neutral, sometimes >:) )

Prep races are the same. You will have a race for 2 normally, if at all: a weaponized expansion / profitable expansion v a 5C one. And quite often powers consolidate meaning they don't expand anything next cycle.



And that players do not need to search for haulers. Since all forting is inbound, and if the opposition are fortifying (looking on the fort tab) you take a holiday in capitals. Your targets come to you and must get past you to 'win' that situation.



So having these sorts of fights could never mathematically happen?




So quite alot of assumptions, to get some numbers

Really? I couldn't have guessed :D
So you basically have nothign to reply with... I have not seen anything that acutally contradicts any of my assumptions, except nitpicking details. And you have totally avoided the more important thigns, like how many are actively invovled in PP activities.

And tyopu hypebole argument about "could never mathematically happen" is just that a hyperbole...
 
far from most players do not enjoy the freedom to do alot of things just before the tick... because of in what timezone they are located in

Source? See I can play this game too. Now its you making sweeping statements while I've watch players drop merits at the last minute each week every week.
Just in case you’re serious...

There is a concept in advertising, broadcast, and the entertainment industry called “Prime Time” or “Golden Time.” It’s a period of time, typically between 7PM and 11PM, when the greatest number of people within a time zone are neither at work or school, having supper, or in bed, asleep.

There is another concept, called the “Weekend”. These are two consecutive days of the seven day week, typically Saturday and Sunday, when the greatest number of people are not working or in school at all that day.

Now, the Powerplay tick happens at 07:00 UTC, on a Thursday. There is only one region of the globe where the tick happens to fall within local prime time: Everywhere East of New Zealand, and West of Alaska. That is, the tick happens during prime time over the Pacific Ocean. Most of the Americas are asleep, and most of Europe, Africa, Asia and Australia are at work or school.
 
It really bums me out to see people who don't even LIKE PowerPlay coming in here and posting extensively about why it may not ever ever ever go to Open Only, because this would defile The Sanctity of The Modes. Which is such disingenuous nonsense. Where were you when Frontier added Wings, CQC, and multicrew?

I'm fine with someone arguing that Open Only would be a bad unfun idea which would make the game worse, but this leaning on so-called Principles has got to go. We're not discussing a Constitutional Amendment, here; so quit pretending like there's something grand and earth-shaking at stake where tweaking PowerPlay somehow crosses a line that would corrupt us all forever if we crossed it. That line has been crossed over and over with great regularity - in fact it's not a line at all - and there's nothing about tweaking PowerPlay that isn't completely normal humdrum run-of-the-mill behavior for Frontier and for Elite.

You don't like it? Say that. Say why. But if all you've got is some grandiose appeal to a nonexistent tradition, you might want to take a step back and ask yourself why you suddenly care so much about an abstract design principle which Frontier has never shown any consistent adherence to in the past.
 
If powerplay was designed to be played in open exclusively, then that is a design flaw in powerplay as all of Elite is supposed to work with mode parity. Which means powerplay needs to be redesigned to adhere to mode parity while still maintaining a competitive player vs player center, even if players never meet ship to ship.
Nah.

Wings
Squadrons
Multicrew
Special 'events'
CQC

The nonsense of 'mode equality' has sailed. Assuming that equality means exactly the same in the first place, which is patently silly, considering one mode is 1 player, and other other mods multiple players.
 
So you basically have nothign to reply with... I have not seen anything that acutally contradicts any of my assumptions, except nitpicking details. And you have totally avoided the more important thigns, like how many are actively invovled in PP activities.

And tyopu hypebole argument about "could never mathematically happen" is just that a hyperbole...
Really? I filled in the blanks for you.

You have 11 captials that are choke points. Each power has at most 1 expansion, with many choosing not to expand each week, so the possible (generous) average working number is 6, but often its around 1 to 3. The same number in prep that often goes down to zero across powers via consolidation. No power fights everyone else, powers fight enemies. Archon Grom, Feds ALD, AD Grom. The others don't have regular expansions. Does that equal 300 + locations?

So for an Archon player:

Primary enemy: Grom- So to slow his fortification thats 1 system to attack (his capital). Normally we also have 1 prep target and one expansion if we choose to push it. UM happens on tactical targets unless its a blanket- so you are looking at about 5 or so systems on average, and enemy expansions are targets to oppose (if any).

This does not even include joint efforts between powers.

You have a video of a battle where slightly more than 1 person is in fighting, at times many wings at once, showing fights snowball.

All those point to players clustering around actions rather than spread out as you suggest with your flawed assumptions.

like how many are actively invovled in PP activities
No one knows except FD.
 
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Just in case you’re serious...

There is a concept in advertising, broadcast, and the entertainment industry called “Prime Time” or “Golden Time.” It’s a period of time, typically between 7PM and 11PM, when the greatest number of people within a time zone are neither at work or school, having supper, or in bed, asleep.

There is another concept, called the “Weekend”. These are two consecutive days of the seven day week, typically Saturday and Sunday, when the greatest number of people are not working or in school at all that day.

Now, the Powerplay tick happens at 07:00 UTC, on a Thursday. There is only one region of the globe where the tick happens to fall within local prime time: Everywhere East of New Zealand, and West of Alaska. That is, the tick happens during prime time over the Pacific Ocean. Most of the Americas are asleep, and most of Europe, Africa, Asia and Australia are at work or school.
Well the Feds are quite active around tick time. Join in Powerplay and see!
 
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