PMFs: data, charts, and the coming galactic player wars...

We have around 8 players at any on time - more or less constant (though not the same players) for 3 years. I like to think we punch above our weight (450 expansions, 245 system flips)

We have two player factions in the top 20 and another 4 factions not listed as player factions that would qualify in the above graph if they were
While impressive what you have done you sort of are circumventing certain circumstances by splitting your territory up over 6 factions and why I have no problem that FDev hasn’t recognized all of them as their own factions. A faction such as say Davinci at the top has to worry about any system that could be pulled into a war. If you have one attacked BGS wise it’s not the end of the world because you have 5 more and you can still take that time to expand.
 
While impressive what you have done you sort of are circumventing certain circumstances by splitting your territory up over 6 factions and why I have no problem that FDev hasn’t recognized all of them as their own factions. A faction such as say Davinci at the top has to worry about any system that could be pulled into a war. If you have one attacked BGS wise it’s not the end of the world because you have 5 more and you can still take that time to expand.
They are also adding their own difficulties by placing multiple commie factions they manage in the same system.

There are so many ways to play the BGS. Since the start of our group, we only support procedural factions. We don't have a PMF we named ourselves, one of the factions we pushed since Day 1 was recognized as such.

There are so many variables involved in playing the BGS, and different goals and reasons to do so. Different areas of space are much busier and heavily trafficked which will make growing a faction substantially slower. Big systems take a long time to move, whereas tiny systems with a single outpost and 1K population move with the slightest of effort.

This is why I think that chart a few posts up is interesting. Looking just at largest factions is impressive. But there is a big variety among the big factions when it comes to population controlled.

(Of course, in many cases, high population comes from a small number of systems. But they certainly tend to be a bit more "central" in the bubble, so it functions a bit like a proxy for traffic. Unfortunately, the eddb.io/api data dumps do not include traffic numbers.)
 
They are also adding their own difficulties by placing multiple commie factions they manage in the same system.

There are so many ways to play the BGS. Since the start of our group, we only support procedural factions. We don't have a PMF we named ourselves, one of the factions we pushed since Day 1 was recognized as such.

There are so many variables involved in playing the BGS, and different goals and reasons to do so. Different areas of space are much busier and heavily trafficked which will make growing a faction substantially slower. Big systems take a long time to move, whereas tiny systems with a single outpost and 1K population move with the slightest of effort.

This is why I think that chart a few posts up is interesting. Looking just at largest factions is impressive. But there is a big variety among the big factions when it comes to population controlled.

(Of course, in many cases, high population comes from a small number of systems. But they certainly tend to be a bit more "central" in the bubble, so it functions a bit like a proxy for traffic. Unfortunately, the eddb.io/api data dumps do not include traffic numbers.)
I should have been more elaborate. Not discrediting the way you or they are playing the BGS and I understand the pitfalls. What I am suggesting is when either of your groups run a foul of another group and conflict arises it’s an advantage to claim multiple factions.

The other issue lies in some posts you have already stated about space being crowded and cramped within the bubble. To this extent by running multiple factions in the way that you have you’re creating that overcrowding. You are disadvantaging any new group that may want to support a faction or add their own. You can put all 3 into expansion or what not and at a much faster pace than another group growing a single faction you can claim a larger section of occupied space as your own. This is why I don’t think FDev should recognize more than 1 of your factions.

Also, say you run up against a group and you are competing over a system. The two are ar war, well you expand one of your other 6 factions and gobble up the rest of valuable assets around the two squabbling factions and when it’s finally resolved you have left the other group there holding nothing. It’s a racket.

So play the BGS as you see fit, but don’t be surprised when others are frustrated by your tactics or refuse to recognize your factions as legitimate.
 
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So play the BGS as you see fit, but don’t be surprised when others are frustrated by your tactics or refuse to recognize your factions as legitimate.
Speaking of such, did you make contact with the Pranav Antal Powerplay community yet? From what one can see you're about to expand into a System where they have their PMF. Then again I don't assume you're planning to be a good neighbour...
 
Speaking of such, did you make contact with the Pranav Antal Powerplay community yet? From what one can see you're about to expand into a System where they have their PMF. Then again I don't assume you're planning to be a good neighbour...
Well you know the old adage about assumptions I hope...

I also don’t believe it’s any of your business at the moment what our PMFs expansion plans are, but no at the moment our expansion is not Pranav space. Unless of course I missed where an unclaimed system near a power is considered that powers space.
 
Well you know the old adage about assumptions I hope...

I also don’t believe it’s any of your business at the moment what our PMFs expansion plans are, but no at the moment our expansion is not Pranav space. Unless of course I missed where an unclaimed system near a power is considered that powers space.
You're correct, they're not exploiting either System you might go to. But they have their PMF in both nonetheless. Well, you'll find out eventually if they take notice of you.

As regarding the not my business part, you were visiting some Systems near us and didn't leave too good of a impression. So one might get curious and check around.
 
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I should have been more elaborate. Not discrediting the way you or they are playing the BGS and I understand the pitfalls. What I am suggesting is when either of your groups run a foul of another group and conflict arises it’s an advantage to claim multiple factions.

The other issue lies in some posts you have already stated about space being crowded and cramped within the bubble. To this extent by running multiple factions in the way that you have you’re creating that overcrowding. You are disadvantaging any new group that may want to support a faction or add their own. You can put all 3 into expansion or what not and at a much faster pace than another group growing a single faction you can claim a larger section of occupied space as your own. This is why I don’t think FDev should recognize more than 1 of your factions.

Also, say you run up against a group and you are competing over a system. The two are ar war, well you expand one of your other 6 factions and gobble up the rest of valuable assets around the two squabbling factions and when it’s finally resolved you have left the other group there holding nothing. It’s a racket.

So play the BGS as you see fit, but don’t be surprised when others are frustrated by your tactics or refuse to recognize your factions as legitimate.
Yeah... no.

I think some people have invented some "legitimacy" rules after a number of years in the game that are not coming from FDev, and are not coming from those who played the BGS from Day One. I think this starts with a fundamental misunderstanding of what PMFs are.

PMFs didn't exist at launch. They are a later invention at the request of the community (which, personally, I wish they never had accommodated) and in its initial implementation was deeply flawed (initially they literally gifted the system to the PMF). While the reaction of the community was clear: PMFs should work for their home system, I think it did create a perception that PMFs were somehow special.

They're not. They are minor factions like any other. They behave exactly the same like any other minor faction in the BGS. Getting your PMF doesn't confer ownership or executive control. There is nothing that stops anyone in the game to start to work for or against your faction.

That also means that there is no legitimate and illegitimate BGS play. All of it is still just pushing minor factions. I don't care for PP BGS, but it is just as legitimate (I just don't like it, because it is for entirely different purposes).

We are all disadvantaging new groups by playing, by establishing our various territories. A recognized PMF closes space off more completely for new PMFs than un-recognized factions pushed by players. No new PMF can be inserted into your systems, but we got four(!) inserted into our 2nd faction last round. We don't mind, but obviously, not as nice for those who got their new faction.

Related to this is the idea that somehow FD endorses PMFs to take their home system. Not quite. FD just adds them into the game with a home system. That's as far as the endorsement goes. No PMF deserves their home system like no minor faction deserves their home system. There are typically at least 5-6 home factions in the system, each have as much right to rule as the next. It all just depends on player actions.

Player groups put all kinds of self-imposed rules on themselves, and people should play how they want. Splitting BGS play in legitimate and illegitimate is a fool's errand, and while I can understand it may get you some sympathy with a section of the community, it doesn't mean anything beyond you telling other players they're not playing the game right.

Finally, the typical PMF owns no systems and no assets. Large factions like yours and ours are exceedingly exceptional in the galaxy (whether official PMFs or not). Maybe we should talk of PSFs (Player Supported Factions) rather than PMFs, as some of the biggest factions in the game aren't PMFs, but definitely Player Supported, whereas the majority of PMFs is not player supported at all.
 
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You're correct, they're not exploiting either System you might go to. But they have their PMF in both nonetheless. Well, you'll find out eventually if they take notice of you.

As regarding the not my business part, you were visiting some Systems near us and didn't leave too good of a impression. So one might get curious and check around.
Hmmm no one has said anything to me about good or bad impressions. I don’t have any outstanding issues with any groups that I’m aware of so I guess I’m in the dark here. Still interested how I’m you’re business or my pmf is your business as you say. But I really can’t do anything about it nor does it bother me you have taken an interest.
 
Hmmm no one has said anything to me about good or bad impressions. I don’t have any outstanding issues with any groups that I’m aware of so I guess I’m in the dark here. Still interested how I’m you’re business or my pmf is your business as you say. But I really can’t do anything about it nor does it bother me you have taken an interest.
Not really an interest. As I said I like to check around who does what either in our own Systems or in the close vicinity to them. It's vital to be informed when playing the BGS.
 
Unfortunately, the eddb.io/api data dumps do not include traffic numbers.
It's been an occasional request of mine from time to time to have the traffic/crime/bounties local reports added to the journal somewhere, but I expect it's not that straightforward to add.

I do have a map of traffic distribution in the bubble at https://heatmap.sotl.org.uk/ - it's based on EDDN events only, of course, though last time I was in the bubble they seemed to map to the traffic reports about 1:10 fairly consistently across systems (obviously that holds less well the quieter the system gets)
 
Yeah... no.

I think some people have invented some "legitimacy" rules after a number of years in the game that are not coming from FDev, and are not coming from those who played the BGS from Day One. I think this starts with a fundamental misunderstanding of what PMFs are.

PMFs didn't exist at launch. They are a later invention at the request of the community (which, personally, I wish they never had accommodated) and in its initial implementation was deeply flawed (initially they literally gifted the system to the PMF). While the reaction of the community was clear: PMFs should work for their home system, I think it did create a perception that PMFs were somehow special.

They're not. They are minor factions like any other. They behave exactly the same like any other minor faction in the BGS. Getting your PMF doesn't confer ownership or executive control. There is nothing that stops anyone in the game to start to work for or against your faction.

That also means that there is no legitimate and illegitimate BGS play. All of it is still just pushing minor factions. I don't care for PP BGS, but it is just as legitimate (I just don't like it, because it is for entirely different purposes).

We are all disadvantaging new groups by playing, by establishing our various territories. A recognized PMF closes space off more completely for new PMFs than un-recognized factions pushed by players. No new PMF can be inserted into your systems, but we got four(!) inserted into our 2nd faction last round. We don't mind, but obviously, not as nice for those who got their new faction.

Related to this is the idea that somehow FD endorses PMFs to take their home system. Not quite. FD just adds them into the game with a home system. That's as far as the endorsement goes. No PMF deserves their home system like no minor faction deserves their home system. There are typically at least 5-6 home factions in the system, each have as much right to rule as the next. It all just depends on player actions.

Player groups put all kinds of self-imposed rules on themselves, and people should play how they want. Splitting BGS play in legitimate and illegitimate is a fool's errand, and while I can understand it may get you some sympathy with a section of the community, it doesn't mean anything beyond you telling other players they're not playing the game right.

Finally, the typical PMF owns no systems and no assets. Large factions like yours and ours are exceedingly exceptional in the galaxy (whether official PMFs or not). Maybe we should talk of PSFs (Player Supported Factions) rather than PMFs, as some of the biggest factions in the game aren't PMFs, but definitely Player Supported, whereas the majority of PMFs is not player supported at all.
Well I have to disagree somewhat with what you have said.

1. PMFs did not exist while true st the beginning they did change some of the rules that govern MFs as a whole. Example the retreat from home system function and also the ability to walk off a system from entry by FDev for another PMF.

2. FDev have stated you can have one PSF attaches to your Player Group and the reason for this is to stop groups from claiming large factions or really any faction that they want, which is essentially what you are doing. Even by supporting all of those factions FDev as I understand it will only recognize one of those as your faction. This is why 4 PMF were able to be entered into your controlled systems. So in reality if you didn’t want that then the way to do it would be to spread one faction to all of them.

Also,I’m in no way suggesting that the way you’re doing things is wrong or any ones playstyle. It’s not uncommon for someone to be upset with me simply for being a pirate or for doing PowerPlay activities as you can see by another’s interest in my where abouts.

While my group supports a few other factions in surrounding systems to ours I understand that FDev won’t recognize those as player controlled systems and since I have not expanded what FDev recognizes as a PMF into those systems it would follow that at any time someone could claim and insert a PMF into that system. That group would be operating under the rules FDev have laid out.
 
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It’s not uncommon for someone to be upset with me simply for being a pirate or for doing PowerPlay activities as you can see by another’s interest in my where abouts.
I don't do Powerplay, just on a side note. And I'm not upset with you in the slightest.

To be upset would mean I'd have personal interest in you and would deem my (life)time worthy of being spent on such feelings.

I can assure you that is not the case and most likely never will be.
 
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I don't do Powerplay, just on a side note. And I'm not upset with you in the slightest.

To be upset would mean I'd have personal interest in you and would deem my (life)time worthy of being spent on such feelings.

I can assure you that is not the case and most likely never will be.
Well then only reason someone may be upset with me is for pirating and as I understand it you are on PC. So issues with me must be BGS related and again right now I have no issues with anyone so I’m in the dark.
 
Well then only reason someone may be upset with me is for pirating and as I understand it you are on PC. So issues with me must be BGS related and again right now I have no issues with anyone so I’m in the dark.
You'll notice in due time eventually. I'm staying out of it and will continue to observe.
 
Whether indirect or direct it's still a passive aggressive threat. Which is fine, I really don't care. If your friend has an issue that is fine.
It was a simple statement, your perception makes it into what you think it is. Which is fine and doesn't phase me in the slightest.

Let's agree that we both don't care and move on, there are surely more interesting topics to discuss then this one.
 
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