Powerplay Powerplay and what I think needs to be done.

You didn't quote anyone, but presume you are talking to me?

Ok, that's fine, you're not a PvPer. I suspected you were, but i know there are some PPers who are in favour of open only who are happy hauling. That's cool.

I disagree on the topic of PG/solo making Open irrelevant. (by the way, having a different opinion to someone != wrong). Everyone is free to fly in the mode they prefer, and if you listen to some of the vocal powerplayer "leaders" all their people are flying in open already. Can't be that irrelevant.

As for quoting, it just helps break things up and address each point directly, but ok, i can reply in bulk ;)

Now, onto your last sentence, how about this. Leave the BGS to the PG/solo players, you can have powerplay. Deal? No? Whyever not? Ok, how about Mining? Can we have mining? Erm.. Community Goals (if they make a return)? Can we get a trade on this?

Ok, here's a deal, maybe you'll like it (and let's pretend for the moment we have some power over this - lol). PP can go open only, BUT, if powerplay is open only it should have zero presence or impact on PG/solo.

By this i mean:

1) No powerplay ships appear in PG/solo (its always annoying when bounty hunting and half the spaws are PP NPCs).
2) The powerplay galactic map does not appear in PG/solo.
3) Powerplay becomes completely disconnected from the BGS. By this i mean the favourable governments part of PP is removed. If PG/solo players can't do PP, then there is no reason PPers should be flipping their systems to make them favourable to them.
4) Power effects on systems are removed. No blackmarkets opening and closing due to the presence of Archon. No discounts in Li Yong's systems. etc.
5) No PP modules in PG/solo, even for those who have the ranks.

Deal?
You keep saying Open isn't made irrelevant by Private/Solo coexistence.

Here is a typical situation that happened to us (and many other Powers), during expansions.
As I said before we always play in Open, all the time, and we have players in PC and consoles too. The current Yuri Grom expansion (Frey) has already astonishing numbers, and it will be higher at the end of the cycle, because people are grinding the conflict zones like crazy. Of course there's nobody in the Conflict Zones.
Meanwhile they have some PvPers which are patroling the system, which would be legit... in an Open Only environment of course.
In this way Open Play is in fact made irrelevant but the coexistence of Open/Pruivate/Solo, because the Open Play actions can be slowed down, while Private and Solo cannot.
And that is not an opinion: it is a fact. Open Play is indeed sadly irrelevant, proof is that many Powers have even official Private Groups.

For the other points you stated I totally agree with you. I even proposed to give Powerplay a completely different game mode, with even special rules (for example, a prolonged logoff time to prevent combat logging), I'd only keep some limited effects (like the ones to security, or a little boost for factions of the same Superpower, or special things like black markets being closed/opened, etc) just to spice things up a little and make people more interested to Powerplay, same goes for prices of certain commodities etc.

BGS will of course stay multi-mode, let's speak about it as a "entry level" experience, not an hardcore one. That would be Powerplay. I think everybody wins, this way.

PS I'm not a "master escaper", in particular during the Community Goal in Harma I had escort. You know, PvPers can protect people too, if they've got something to fight for.
 
I'd love to know if Sandros cryptic hints of PP 'favour' missions will ever be included, as I think that would spice things up.
To be honest, I'd take any sort of shake up with what we can do to get merits to give players more choice in PP.

Watch that statement come back to haunt me one day!
 
Having powerplay as open only is:
  • The only solution to botting
  • The best solution to 5c
  • The only way it will ever be interesting (actual PvP territory wars that aren't reduced to grind wars by default)
  • Giving PvPers something to do other than ganking at high-traffic systems (Eravate, Deciat, Shinrarta Dezhra), this would reduce seal clubbing by a fair % and turn less new players away from the game
It was always billed as an elective PvP system by Frontier.. let it be what it was intended to be. Just because it was hijacked by Private mode PvE groups doesn't mean it should stay that way. PvE players have every other area of the main game, yet can't give up this one area to PvP? It's an entitled and short-sighted perspective.

Edit: also make powerplay weapons/modules available from tech brokers so players don't have to module shop.
1) No, the only solution to botting is FD spotting the bots. Bots can quite happily work in Open, they will just be less efficient if they get caught. Credits, which are no so easy to make, make deaths and loss of credits almost meaningless these days. You can thank everyone who moaned incessently to FD about the "grind". The botters will just alternate accounts, perhaps buy a few more, get them doing trade runs or whatever 24 hours until loaded up, then run those bots for PP.

2) How? You going to shoot any supporter of your side who you deem to be a 5Cer? How will you know? You're also going to get a powerplay bounty on your head from your own power.

3) Well, this is debatable, but i'll accept, you think it might make it more interesting for you. We will only find out if FD actually do it.

4) I can't believe you are really this naieve. Come off it, you know its itsn't going to change that much. The gankers will gank anyway, and they can continue ganking at Erevate and other locations while being signed up for PP. They will take the opportunities as they find them.

As for the last bit, really? PP was hijacked by PvE groups? Its a fricking PvE mechanic from top to bottom. Of course PvE groups got involved, FD presented it to them on a plate.

Well, if PP did somehow go open only, i look forward to watching your streams of you spending all evening hauling from A to B, you seem keen to win back those PvE activities from PvEers :D

To be honest, I'd take any sort of shake up with what we can do to get merits to give players more choice in PP.

Watch that statement come back to haunt me one day!
Heh, remember, this is FD, they like unorthodox solutions that aren't to everyone's liking :p

Potentially due to this being the only way to feel like you're having a wider impact on the bubble. I wonder if these players would drop powerplay anyway if something like the navy rank progression system was improved. Could be a way forward, especially if navy missions are focused on defending systems from thargoids or fixing stations (for example) to give PvE players something to do which and leaves bgs/powerplay alone
Good question. Possibly. But there are lots of things that could be improved which might affect people's desires to be involved in one thing or another, there will always be those who will still want to do the BGS and Powerplay... hell, definitely the BGS, and i hope that isn't up for discussion about going Open only in this particular debate, otherwise i'm not going to get any play time tonight :D

You keep saying Open isn't made irrelevant by Private/Solo coexistence.

Here is a typical situation that happened to us (and many other Powers), during expansions.
As I said before we always play in Open, all the time, and we have players in PC and consoles too. The current Yuri Grom expansion (Frey) has already astonishing numbers, and it will be higher at the end of the cycle, because people are grinding the conflict zones like crazy. Of course there's nobody in the Conflict Zones.
Meanwhile they have some PvPers which are patroling the system, which would be legit... in an Open Only environment of course.
In this way Open Play is in fact made irrelevant but the coexistence of Open/Pruivate/Solo, because the Open Play actions can be slowed down, while Private and Solo cannot.
And that is not an opinion: it is a fact. Open Play is indeed sadly irrelevant, proof is that many Powers have even official Private Groups.

For the other points you stated I totally agree with you. I even proposed to give Powerplay a completely different game mode, with even special rules (for example, a prolonged logoff time to prevent combat logging), I'd only keep some limited effects (like the ones to security, or a little boost for factions of the same Superpower, or special things like black markets being closed/opened, etc) just to spice things up a little and make people more interested to Powerplay, same goes for prices of certain commodities etc.

BGS will of course stay multi-mode, let's speak about it as a "entry level" experience, not an hardcore one. That would be Powerplay. I think everybody wins, this way.

PS I'm not a "master escaper", in particular during the Community Goal in Harma I had escort. You know, PvPers can protect people too, if they've got something to fight for.
Ok, last post for tonight in this thread, otherwise i'll get no play. Then i'll leave you all alone to imagine the land on milk and honey that you think Open Only PP will provide :p

So yes, i say that, and i'm not changing my opinion. Why? Because i simply view it different from you. In your scenario the Grom players have made their choice about which mode to play in. You have made yours. But because there are no Grom players in Open, there is nobody opposing you. Therefore you are on equal terms. If you are losing, its simply because you don't have enough support or putting in enough effort. Get grinding those conflict zones (aren't they called warzones in PP?).

Its a PvE mechanic, get PvEing.

If they were in open, you could have some PvP along the way. You might win, you might lose. Overall, on average, its going to come out even who wins the PvP fights, but if Grom has the player numbers or perhaps more relevant, the player hours, they are still going to beat you... and if signifcantly more, then you'd be facing multiple opponents for each single person on your side.

So... well, sounds like you need to git gud.... just kidding.

All modes are equally relevant at the end of the day, none of them special, so open isn't irrelvant, it just isn't as special as some people would like it to be. There is no pat on the head for playing in open, no kiss from Uncle Braben, playing in open is its own reward.

Ah, glad to see you agree to the deal i proposed. By the way, i wasn't suggesting those effects don't occur in open (although might be tricky for FD to implement - a black market exists in open but not in PG? Not sure they would want that).

And yes, of course, PvPers can protect people, and its probably the best use of PvPers in PP, as they are then contributing in an additive way to the power, rather than just trying to negate another power. At least until you have your fortifications, etc done, then you can let slip the dogs of war on your opponents.
 
Ok, last post for tonight in this thread, otherwise i'll get no play. Then i'll leave you all alone to imagine the land on milk and honey that you think Open Only PP will provide :p

So yes, i say that, and i'm not changing my opinion. Why? Because i simply view it different from you. In your scenario the Grom players have made their choice about which mode to play in. You have made yours. But because there are no Grom players in Open, there is nobody opposing you. Therefore you are on equal terms. If you are losing, its simply because you don't have enough support or putting in enough effort. Get grinding those conflict zones (aren't they called warzones in PP?).

Its a PvE mechanic, get PvEing.

If they were in open, you could have some PvP along the way. You might win, you might lose. Overall, on average, its going to come out even who wins the PvP fights, but if Grom has the player numbers or perhaps more relevant, the player hours, they are still going to beat you... and if signifcantly more, then you'd be facing multiple opponents for each single person on your side.

So... well, sounds like you need to git gud.... just kidding.

All modes are equally relevant at the end of the day, none of them special, so open isn't irrelvant, it just isn't as special as some people would like it to be. There is no pat on the head for playing in open, no kiss from Uncle Braben, playing in open is its own reward.

Ah, glad to see you agree to the deal i proposed. By the way, i wasn't suggesting those effects don't occur in open (although might be tricky for FD to implement - a black market exists in open but not in PG? Not sure they would want that).

And yes, of course, PvPers can protect people, and its probably the best use of PvPers in PP, as they are then contributing in an additive way to the power, rather than just trying to negate another power. At least until you have your fortifications, etc done, then you can let slip the dogs of war on your opponents.
First of all: my god post once. There's the multiquote function, you know. That's flooding, theoretically.

You're not changing your opinion, you said well: the facts remain as I said, but it's evident you didn't even read what I wrote you before, because some of them are in Open right now to slow down us.So we're not alone in Open, anyway this doesn't change the fact that they're hiding, exploiting the safety given by Private and Solo. (They, and maybe more casual opposers too).
So let's rephrase: you are not changing your opinion even if I showed you the problem with a real example, surgically ignoring something I said just to go on with your opinion. That's intellectual dishonesty, by the way.
And in fact...
All the things you said about Powerplay being a PvE mechanic righ now. Dude: are we talking about what Powerplay is or what should/could be? We all know what Powerplay is. We all know the game is all PvE oriented, and we all know that it's grind-driven because the coexistence of Open/Private/Solo, not just Powerplay, every game mechanic is grindy because of that, even the equilibrium that should exist between criminal and lawful players is totally wrong because of that (a couple of nights ago me and two friends of mine went to Dav's Hope to repel a CMDR which was camping there to seal-club people because, you know, it's not "griefing" technically speaking, it's called "seal-clubbing"... Result? The guy got annoyed and people going there was safe after that, at least for a some hours).
But I believe that right now this community can't see how an Open Only environment would be more fun and even more secure, so I at least would like to see Powerplay as an Open Only feature to simply have fun with something different than the BGS.

So... is it really that much of a problem for you to simply let some people have a little bit of fun? As I said before: I've never been a miner or an explorer, but I was so happy when they improved these features.

It adds richness to the game, more people are invovled and can play the way they want.

Nobody here is fighting to making people play Open in every situation. But there's some people fighting to make people not playing Open, or at least play Open to lose, which is not funny but is even less funny when there's no fight at all.

You've got your gamestyle, right? We've got none. We can only play "personally". We don't like that, so we ask for a game mechanic for Open Players. Will you not find amusing? You're free to play that or not as you're free to play or not CQC, mining, do some exploration etc.
So I'm sorry but I still can't understand all of this energy you and other opposers keep wasting over this proposal, this is not a menace to the game at all, the game will go on fine as it's been right now, maybe some Powers will struggle more, but I'm sure that with numbers they will probably be able to repel other Powers' attacks, and if they don't well, it's not about winning or losing, it's about playing another gamestyle which this game, right now, lacks completely.

I want for the game to be richer, apparently you don't want from other people to have something more to fight for.
 
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Open only have no chances, too much have to be done, and even then we may not like end product, but giving bonuses to doing PP stuff in open is good start, and this have precedence in game (wing missions). A lot of other things need to get fixed first, so the rest of the power play make any sense(it doesn't now), like eliminating 5C by giving some voting mechanic to stop bad expansions/preparations, add power collapse mechanic, those are not things that are beyond patch size, but are needed NOW. Also i m not sure if people who grind PP modules know the consequences of playing in open, IMO players should be aware of specific PP C&P when pledging, from my observations they are often not, i would also give 1 week delay when changing factions, so PVP-ers who are not interested in power play but want station defence in CG's, not abuse it. As pvp-er i would also like to see expansions/UM progress in real time, and death would also lead to merit loss, but not progress towards triggers, but its my personal view, i don't like "sniping idea" for me it just doesn't make any sense.What worries me, is why simple game mechanics that are in other part of the game that would counter BOT's are not used in PP, we not have recurring NPC's when hauling PP commodity, like we have when hauling mission cargo, we don't have phasing weapons in PP CZ like we have in standard combat zones. right now power play is so much ignored that i not plan to buy single cosmetics from FD store unless SOMETHING will be done with those issues, yes it's THAT BAD. FD please, there is players base that not ask for new content requiring hundreds of hours of your time, but will be happy with some small tweaks, just a little more than a bug fix.
 
First of all: my god post once. There's the multiquote function, you know. That's flooding, theoretically.
You told me off earlier for multiquoiting.... please make up your mind.

So... is it really that much of a problem for you to simply let some people have a little bit of fun? As I said before: I've never been a miner or an explorer, but I was so happy when they improved these features.
I'm not against people having fun at all. I'm saying that open only might not be the solution people think it might be. I'm suggesting people look to alternate soluitions to give people the fun they seek.

I want for the game to be richer, apparently you don't want from other people to have something more to fight for.
I also want the game to be richer. I'm not against people having something more to fight for. Just disagree in how it should be done.

Open only have no chances, too much have to be done, and even then we may not like end product, but giving bonuses to doing PP stuff in open is good start, and this have precedence in game (wing missions). A lot of other things need to get fixed first, so the rest of the power play make any sense(it doesn't now), like eliminating 5C by giving some voting mechanic to stop bad expansions/preparations, add power collapse mechanic, those are not things that are beyond patch size, but are needed NOW. Also i m not sure if people who grind PP modules know the consequences of playing in open, IMO players should be aware of specific PP C&P when pledging, from my observations they are often not, i would also give 1 week delay when changing factions, so PVP-ers who are not interested in power play but want station defence in CG's, not abuse it. As pvp-er i would also like to see expansions/UM progress in real time, and death would also lead to merit loss, but not progress towards triggers, but its my personal view, i don't like "sniping idea" for me it just doesn't make any sense.What worries me, is why simple game mechanics that are in other part of the game that would counter BOT's are not used in PP, we not have recurring NPC's when hauling PP commodity, like we have when hauling mission cargo, we don't have phasing weapons in PP CZ like we have in standard combat zones. right now power play is so much ignored that i not plan to buy single cosmetics from FD store unless SOMETHING will be done with those issues, yes it's THAT BAD. FD please, there is players base that not ask for new content requiring hundreds of hours of your time, but will be happy with some small tweaks, just a little more than a bug fix.
Erm, wing missions can be done in PG as well ;)

Personally, I don't like any sort of change that says players in one more are more valuable than players in another. There is already an aura of superiority that some open only players have. No need to give them bigger egos.
 
You told me off earlier for multiquoiting.... please make up your mind.



I'm not against people having fun at all. I'm saying that open only might not be the solution people think it might be. I'm suggesting people look to alternate soluitions to give people the fun they seek.



I also want the game to be richer. I'm not against people having something more to fight for. Just disagree in how it should be done.
So are you telling me that there should be no Open Only strategic game mechanic because you don't agree with that and you're sure I could find amusement some other way?

Or maybe it's just you don't like that?

I don't like mining but I don't ask Frontier Developments to cut it out of the game.

But you keep saying that there should be no Open Only mechanic in game because you already know nobody will find that fun.

Again: there's people asking for an in-game Open Only strategic mode, Powerplay is basically already there, but there's people fighting against that, on principle, with no reason at all, because people asking for Open Only Powerplay would see it improved, without powerplay modules and disconnected to BGS.

Still: you are fighting so hard for what: to defend the "all modes are equals" ? All modes will remain equal for the rest of the game (even if, as I proved before, they are not because of efficiency and danger).

Just leave Powerplay to us.
 
1) No, the only solution to botting is FD spotting the bots. Bots can quite happily work in Open, they will just be less efficient if they get caught. Credits, which are no so easy to make, make deaths and loss of credits almost meaningless these days. You can thank everyone who moaned incessently to FD about the "grind". The botters will just alternate accounts, perhaps buy a few more, get them doing trade runs or whatever 24 hours until loaded up, then run those bots for PP.
Botters would quickly be dealt with if they could only fly in open, there would be groups dedicated to hunting them down and the subsequent disruption to their bot runs would have an impact on their effectiveness. Being restricted to open would also allow players to identify botters and get them banned easier than Fdev having to sift through logs, making the system self-policing.

2) How? You going to shoot any supporter of your side who you deem to be a 5Cer? How will you know? You're also going to get a powerplay bounty on your head from your own power.
If players are engaging in 5C activities it will be pretty obvious to everyone involved in powerplay groups. They can then be dealt with however the group in question sees fit.. One thing is for certain, allowing them to do it in solo is infinitely worse than in open where they can be potentially identified.

3) Well, this is debatable, but i'll accept, you think it might make it more interesting for you. We will only find out if FD actually do it.
Well a lot of people obviously agree, considering how dead PP is now and how many players argued in favour of open only. Yes hot conflicts are more interesting than grind wars.. nobody makes YouTube videos about BGS conflicts for a reason.

4) I can't believe you are really this naieve. Come off it, you know its itsn't going to change that much. The gankers will gank anyway, and they can continue ganking at Erevate and other locations while being signed up for PP. They will take the opportunities as they find them.
I said a %, not all.. but we're talking macrotrends among lots of players. Even if ganking in these systems dropped by 10%, that would be positive right?

As for the last bit, really? PP was hijacked by PvE groups? Its a fricking PvE mechanic from top to bottom. Of course PvE groups got involved, FD presented it to them on a plate.
You know as well as I do that PP was intended to be a PvP-centric activity from day one (Sandro said so many times). Of course it has a PvE system, it has to to function.. but those systems were designed as a method to support an elective PvP feature. Yes it did get hijacked, hence why this is even a debate about changing it to open only.

Well, if PP did somehow go open only, i look forward to watching your streams of you spending all evening hauling from A to B, you seem keen to win back those PvE activities from PvEers :D
I'd be paroling Delaine territory and killing trespassers :) No point in doing that right now...
 
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Powerplay had a massive PvP incentive with piracy to begin with, which got abused and eventually nullified. It was a shame, as it almost created a food chain of sorts. With love it could be brought back.

I read here that people think well if everyone is off hunting whos going to haul? The thing is, haulers in Open PP become the most precious players, as they are keeping the power afloat. They have to be protected. Damaged and spent combat ships returning to cash merits are really vulnerable too needing top cover. The proposal mentioned everyone forting inbound- that creates a massive, unending killathon in powers capitals. You need patrols there too.
 
Are folks still pretending that Elite has a client/server structure instead of p2p and that anyone capable of scripting bots can't very easily make them invisible in open?

....good good, carry on then.
 
Are folks still pretending that Elite has a client/server structure instead of p2p and that anyone capable of scripting bots can't very easily make them invisible in open?

....good good, carry on then.
P2P does generate potential problems, but until you try, you'll never know the outcome. FD threw Powerplay into the game without any testing at all.

Plus as a general question, would it look distinctly odd if over several months you never ever encountered anyone else in Open PP? What information is held in the players log files regarding connections? The other big question is that the block feature would need reworking, simply as people misuse it.

The one certainty about making it Open Only is that you move people abusing gameplay flaws from being exploiters to TOS breaking cheaters.
 
I agree with you to an extent Rubber I really do, I've said in the past that PP should have been an open only experience from the get go, however, it wasn't. P2P not only generates problems though it generates some problems which are insurmountable and some problems that clash directly with the rights of the end user and their PC and their security. As for hiding bots in open, yes, certain behaviours can be 'seen' and recorded, but many behaviours - not just router fiddling - such as choking your own connection through running processes and the like are pretty much outside of Frontiers realm of control, the EULA and the TOS.
 
I agree with you to an extent Rubber I really do, I've said in the past that PP should have been an open only experience from the get go, however, it wasn't. P2P not only generates problems though it generates some problems which are insurmountable and some problems that clash directly with the rights of the end user and their PC and their security. As for hiding bots in open, yes, certain behaviours can be 'seen' and recorded, but many behaviours - not just router fiddling - such as choking your own connection through running processes and the like are pretty much outside of Frontiers realm of control, the EULA and the TOS.
What I mean is, if you are trying to evade other connections, surely the information FD use to run the game would see that you have never actually connected with anyone? I have never looked, but in log files would it say "connection refused" over and over?
 
Sorry, i'm going to have to break your post up to make my responses clear.

So are you telling me that there should be no Open Only strategic game mechanic because you don't agree with that and you're sure I could find amusement some other way?

Or maybe it's just you don't like that?
Am I saying there should be no open only strategic game mechanic? Hmm... no, not really. I'm saying Powerplay, which was delivered to all modes, probably isn't the vehicle for that. I'm also saying that those who are making the open only mantra perhaps are not considering all the ramifications of making it open only.

What I most certainly don't want is a feature that is locked to a specific game mode just to please those who think playing in open somehow makes them superior to players in other modes.

Now, some sort of strategic game based on PvP, that could be interesting, which would be limited then to Open and PGs which allow PvP, but i think we see the problem with that sort of thing, its totally exploitable unless there are lots of safeguard put in place (someone earlier made a suggestion which might work, or at least be a partial solution).

Its also why rewarding PvP more in Powerplay is a challenge. If it becomes a signficant CC/merit reward, then at that point it will be exploited to hell with people letting themselves be blown up while pledged to an opposing faction. The combat version of 5Cing i suppose. How would you stop that without limiting those who are making valid kills?


I don't like mining but I don't ask Frontier Developments to cut it out of the game.
Glad to hear it. I'm not asking for PP to be removed from the game.

But you keep saying that there should be no Open Only mechanic in game because you already know nobody will find that fun.
No, please pay more attention to my posts. I'm not saying that.

Again: there's people asking for an in-game Open Only strategic mode, Powerplay is basically already there, but there's people fighting against that, on principle, with no reason at all, because people asking for Open Only Powerplay would see it improved, without powerplay modules and disconnected to BGS.
Yes, there are. There are people asking for all sorts of things. There are people in the community who want random equipment failures on ships. There are people who want instant deliveries of ships. There are people who want space legs to be a priority. There are people who want all sorts of things. Its up to FD to decide where they put their efforts and how they implement them. All we can do is discuss things ;)

So, you say people are fighting against open only on principle.. with no reason at all. So you are saying things should never be opposed based on principles? Hmm... sorry, that's going to be a hard one to sell to me.

Now, you are saying people who are opposing want it to be disconnected from the BGS? I was one person suggesting that is what I would like to see if FD did decide to make PP open only. As we discussed earlier. I think that would be a good move should they do it.

Again, i would also like to PP improved, i just disagree with you on how it should be improved. ;)

Still: you are fighting so hard for what: to defend the "all modes are equals" ? All modes will remain equal for the rest of the game (even if, as I proved before, they are not because of efficiency and danger).
Well, i do love a good debate, and the forums provide an excellent source of it, and I do think FD putting modes into the game was a pretty good move, so yes, i defend it. However, I would say it was probably a mistake, as it leads to issues like this. I feel the better move by FD would have been to create two separate game universes. One where PvP is allowed, the other where it is not. That would probably have resolved a lot of the issues we have around here. I've actually campaigned a bit for FD to do this, although only semi-seriously, because i don't expect FD will ever do it.

This way those who enjoy the modes would have a setup like we have now. While those who demand an open only game, would have it, with the pros and cons it would provide.

Its a shame FD didn't go that way.

Just leave Powerplay to us.
Sorry, is this another attempt to shut down discussion?

Why can't those who would like to see PP improved, but don't like the idea of Open Only, be excluded from the discussion? You're saying Open Only is the only way forward and that dissent is not allowed? If so, for shame!
 
I think a lot of Powerplay veterans get frustrated when people who never really play it (beyond module collecting) start either talking as if they know the subject, or conflate Open Powerplay with a totally Open ED (Slippery Slopers).
 
Botters would quickly be dealt with if they could only fly in open, there would be groups dedicated to hunting them down and the subsequent disruption to their bot runs would have an impact on their effectiveness. Being restricted to open would also allow players to identify botters and get them banned easier than Fdev having to sift through logs, making the system self-policing.
So, people would spend time hunting for bots, without being sure they are bots (or at least it takes time to confirm), deviating them from other activities. From a botting perspective, i think that works fine. The bots can just run and run and run on autopilot, diverting attention of those who should be out there working against active players. I'd suggest you not waste your efforts, they bot will just respawn and start over. Instead, focus on the active players after spotting a bot account and report them to FD. Otherwise you will be letting active players get past you while you deal with the bots over and over again. The bots are probably loaded with credits and won't care about a dozen rebuys.

Just a suggestion of course. But you know FD don't tend to be quick about these things, you'll be wasting a lot of time going after bots.

If players are engaging in 5C activities it will be pretty obvious to everyone involved in powerplay groups. They can then be dealt with however the group in question sees fit.. One thing is for certain, allowing them to do it in solo is infinitely worse than in open where they can be potentially identified.
Ok, how will you deal with them? The 5Cers are obviously fine with what they are doing. Its not like you are going to shame them into stopping. Its also arguably a valid gameplay tactic. Ideally, FD need to find a way to stop it, but until then, its not like they are breaking any rules. I mean, you can shoot them, get a bounty, take the hit, deal with the ATR, although probably just easier to let yourself be killed so the bounty is wiped. Credits are easy these days, so rebuy isn't really an issue. But that also applies to the 5Cers.

Also, have a care. If you repeatedly go after the 5Cers, then i'm not sure, but i'm not certain FD will look favourably upon it, it could be seen as harassment.

I have to ask, how is it easy to spot? I presume its to do with the preparation of unfavourable systems, so if you see people doing that, you presume they are a 5Cer? That's a mighty assumption to make. You could try comms with them, but they might not respond. They might not speak English. They might not care, they are just doing their thing. They may say you can't tell them what to do, they are prepping the system because they want to. Not intentional 5Cing, its just their choice.

I think you could be walking a tightrope towards being hit by FD for shooting your own power's allies.

Well a lot of people obviously agree, considering how dead PP is now and how many players argued in favour of open only. Yes hot conflicts are more interesting than grind wars.. nobody makes YouTube videos about BGS conflicts for a reason.
Sure people agree, especially in debates about open only with lots of open only supporters around :p Be careful of positive reinforcement bias ;)

I said a %, not all.. but we're talking macrotrends among lots of players. Even if ganking in these systems dropped by 10%, that would be positive right?
You mean a 10% drop in ganking on random people and a 10% increase in ganking of PPers? :D Yeah, sure. The haulers might not find it so much fun though.

You know as well as I do that PP was intended to be a PvP-centric activity from day one (Sandro said so many times). Of course it has a PvE system, it has to to function.. but those systems were designed as a method to support an elective PvP feature. Yes it did get hijacked, hence why this is even a debate about changing it to open only.
I know what Sandro said. I also see what FD actually delivered. Maybe Sandro was at every meeting chanting RAR RAR PVP! and waving a PvP flag, but what was actually produced was a massive PvE grindfest. Which is why i, as a PvEer, don't like it as well. As i've said many times in this thread, i also want to see PP to be improved and before more enjoyable (for all, rather than just those who enjoy killing trade ships and those strange people who want to get ganked while hauling :D).

I still don't get your hijacked comment though, nothing was hijacked. FD released it to all modes. Perhaps it was abandoned by open players, that's not the same thing.

Anyway, you can still PvP away to your hearts content, and if you are looking for challenging PvP, i'm sure you can find it against opposing PvPers. What you might be lacking is haulers to shoot against, but i'm sure a quality PvPer like your good self would much rather have a challenging fight that shooting fish in a barrel.

I'd be paroling Delaine territory and killing trespassers :) No point in doing that right now...
So, you're not going to be hauling, which brings me back to the question of exactly how many people are going to be hauling. And, you and other PvPers being really good at what you do, if you can, you're going to be stopping a lot of hauling... so for how long and how much are the haulers going to keep hauling for against such opposition? Sure, some will, but we won't know unless FD do it, how much people will put up with.

I think a lot of Powerplay veterans get frustrated when people who never really play it (beyond module collecting) start either talking as if they know the subject, or conflate Open Powerplay with a totally Open ED (Slippery Slopers).
Ah, nice try. So, basically people who are not involved, but would like to see improvement, shouldn't express their opinions? Got it!

And no, sorry, you're not winning any debate that way :p
 
Sorry, i'm going to have to break your post up to make my responses clear.



Am I saying there should be no open only strategic game mechanic? Hmm... no, not really. I'm saying Powerplay, which was delivered to all modes, probably isn't the vehicle for that. I'm also saying that those who are making the open only mantra perhaps are not considering all the ramifications of making it open only.

What I most certainly don't want is a feature that is locked to a specific game mode just to please those who think playing in open somehow makes them superior to players in other modes.

Now, some sort of strategic game based on PvP, that could be interesting, which would be limited then to Open and PGs which allow PvP, but i think we see the problem with that sort of thing, its totally exploitable unless there are lots of safeguard put in place (someone earlier made a suggestion which might work, or at least be a partial solution).

Its also why rewarding PvP more in Powerplay is a challenge. If it becomes a signficant CC/merit reward, then at that point it will be exploited to hell with people letting themselves be blown up while pledged to an opposing faction. The combat version of 5Cing i suppose. How would you stop that without limiting those who are making valid kills?




Glad to hear it. I'm not asking for PP to be removed from the game.



No, please pay more attention to my posts. I'm not saying that.



Yes, there are. There are people asking for all sorts of things. There are people in the community who want random equipment failures on ships. There are people who want instant deliveries of ships. There are people who want space legs to be a priority. There are people who want all sorts of things. Its up to FD to decide where they put their efforts and how they implement them. All we can do is discuss things ;)

So, you say people are fighting against open only on principle.. with no reason at all. So you are saying things should never be opposed based on principles? Hmm... sorry, that's going to be a hard one to sell to me.

Now, you are saying people who are opposing want it to be disconnected from the BGS? I was one person suggesting that is what I would like to see if FD did decide to make PP open only. As we discussed earlier. I think that would be a good move should they do it.

Again, i would also like to PP improved, i just disagree with you on how it should be improved. ;)



Well, i do love a good debate, and the forums provide an excellent source of it, and I do think FD putting modes into the game was a pretty good move, so yes, i defend it. However, I would say it was probably a mistake, as it leads to issues like this. I feel the better move by FD would have been to create two separate game universes. One where PvP is allowed, the other where it is not. That would probably have resolved a lot of the issues we have around here. I've actually campaigned a bit for FD to do this, although only semi-seriously, because i don't expect FD will ever do it.

This way those who enjoy the modes would have a setup like we have now. While those who demand an open only game, would have it, with the pros and cons it would provide.

Its a shame FD didn't go that way.



Sorry, is this another attempt to shut down discussion?

Why can't those who would like to see PP improved, but don't like the idea of Open Only, be excluded from the discussion? You're saying Open Only is the only way forward and that dissent is not allowed? If so, for shame!
I never, ever tried to close the discussion, or even tried to shut up the dissent, so please keep this kind of considerations for yourself, it's crystal clear what you're trying to do, you're basically trying to divert all the discussion to a "you want shut people up!".

Never ever wanted to do so but, excuse me is I say so, it's really difficult to discuss with people that deny the evidence only to go on with their idea.

Let's take a couple of steps back.

First of al, you can agree with that or not, but Open Play is a totally different kind of game. Is it better? Worse? Does it suit your likings? That's not the point, and you're still going around that thing even if I tried on and on to not talk about that, but just how it is different, far less effective and how it's made irrelevant by two different modes which are Private and Solo.
There's people who like Open better, and people who like Pvt/Solo, I'm not here to argue about that (same can't be said by you, you even mentioned that in your last reply).

The only difference is that Open Player have not a game mode to measure how good they are as a team, period. Tell me differently and, again, you're intellectualy dishonest (and you're being a lot denying a fact as how Open is a totally different way to play the game, different, much more dangerous, not better or worse).

So we're arguing first of all about how this game style is made irrelevant, then we're looking for solutions, something to find for that. And no, even if you keep talking about PvP it's not what the Open Play community wants, we're not all a bunch of people looking for other CMDRs just to satisfy some kind of hidden miserable frustration, so a "PvP only" mechanic is not what people is looking for.

As you can see everything you said in your last posts is technically wrong in many ways.

You still think Open Play gives the same challenges as other modes: you're wrong, it's absurd to say differently.
You think that Open Players consider themselves better than others: again, wrong, we just want something to play with without some invisible entity that make your efforts irrelevant.
You think that somebody's looking for a pure PvP mechanic: newsflash, it's already been tried, it's called CQC and it didn't go that well (because people thought that a pew-pew only thing could be something that'd solve the "seal-clubbing" problem, right). World's not black and white: exclusive PvPers and PvEers are not the only kind of players in here, what about the grey area where you can find most Open Players? You gave proof yourself about this kind of construct in your mind when you talked about "people finally hauling", well you've been proved wrong that time too, btw.
Why Powerplay? Well, because it was designed for that

The real problem right now is that there's a part of the Community asking for a gamestyle of their own and there's other people fighting so hard to deny that to them. So don't put the mask of the "bad guy" shutting out people to me, I'm the propositive one in here, it's you that are fighting against something that other people are asking.

You like to quote, then quote this: why are you fighting so hard? Would it be that much of a tragedy if Powerplay would become an Open Only game mechanic? Would it affect your gameplay in any way? Would it be so terrible to just ignore an Open Only Powerplay as I ignore mining? or exploration?

When I say "Leave Powerplay to us" I mean "Leave us something suited to our gamestyle, where other people with a different idea can find their place to have fun".

Don't be that kind of guy that fights to not let people have things. THAT's shameful. You're not even involved, you don't know how it goes but you know for sure we can't have an Open Play game mechanic "just because" (or maybe "just because kickstarter"?)

It is a matter of principle, in your case. For us it's a matter of having something to play with. Right now you're like the guys who were against mining during the focused feedback because "there's something more important to do first".

You see, I'm not in the sections of the game you care of telling people they should stay with what they have, you are.
Shame on me, right?
 
Are folks still pretending that Elite has a client/server structure instead of p2p and that anyone capable of scripting bots can't very easily make them invisible in open?

....good good, carry on then.
Which would be against the rules and anyone doing so should face punishment. Same goes for anyone modifying their router or firewall to stop themselves instancing with others.

On the other hand, someone could build up an impressive block list and after a few encounters and runs through enemy systems probably have a majority of opposing players blocked, and that would be totally legit.

Lateralus has raised the issue of bots, and bots could be scripted to also add to their block lists, so his hopes of shutting down bots, or even spotting them, might be problematic. You can't see them, you don't know they are there, which brings us back to the same situation we have with modes.
 
Agony Aunt:
Ah, nice try. So, basically people who are not involved, but would like to see improvement, shouldn't express their opinions? Got it!

And no, sorry, you're not winning any debate that way
Day 1 people know Powerplay inside out, they are long term beta testers. A lot of these people also run Reddits, Discords and organize PP, and over the years know why people leave and what would bring them back. New ideas are always welcome but for the most part they are simply repeats of what has been said over and over. Its not a case of 'winning', its simply not wasting time on issues that has been raised earlier on.
 
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