Powerplay: Ideas from the devs - Feedback wanted! #3

[Rubbernuke]

Is it prudent to add layers with merit decay? I understand why you might add favour, but should you just simplify what exists rather than adding more?

For example, would it be better to base merit decay on your activity plus the level you are at currently, so if you are more active but contribute little decay is less harsh?

 

[wstephenson]

Is it prudent to add layers with merit decay? I understand why you might add favour, but should you just simplify what exists rather than adding more?

For example, would it be better to base merit decay on your activity plus the level you are at currently, so if you are more active but contribute little decay is less harsh?

Agree - refactor and simplify. More adaptations of these proposals into simplifications:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=169489&p=2588419&viewfull=1#post2588419

 

[7x5]

Hello.

In my opinion there are some things that could make it easier our relationship with the
power play, to looks like a collaboration with your power more than a slavery.

* Reduce or eliminate the multiplication factor x5 was added unilaterally by frontier. this has become fortification / expansion / control in an activity that annuls us as players.
* Increase the credits are earned in the HRES.
* Increase the benefits of ratings 1 2 3 and 4 of each power.
* Create a special permit to enter the capitals of powers.
* Reduce to 1/4 or 1/2 the earning credits And merits gained in solo or private group (if players prefer less risk, less gain).
* Improve profits by fighting in conflict zones within your power, caused by civil war accused by a turmoil.

 

[JemyM]

Powers would be less locked in if we could create colonies and give merits for exploration. A powerplay system for smaller ships with long jumprange where you can earn merits on how far out you are.

 

[Commander Jared]

I think that such a feature would require the use of Powerplay flags, discussed earlier, to prevent the role of freedom fighter being a permanent death sentence across massive swathes of human space. I also think it offers a new way to enjoy Powerplay, without being beholden to organisations you might not approve of. What do you think?

If you choose to be a terrorist, you should live with the consequences of your choice.

 

[Tortless]

I love the up-vote/down-vote idea. I understand that you are going for a non-verbal approach, which makes sense considering the XBOX, Oculus, langauge barriers, moderation requirements, etc. In my experience though, people are still at risk for the usual bandwaggoning effect: if there is a top ten, CMDRs will go for the first one. It would be much better if Rank 5 players could add a short blurb with each nomination, a la "High CC yield, low overheads, <500 ls station with large pad, far from opposition". Something like two tweets worth of text (280 characters?) should suffice.
Not a big fan of favour and freedom fighter mechanics (both seem to complicate things without adding much). The flag seems useful, esp. if CMDRs want to do some peaceful trading in betwen factional warfare.


Now let me add my own 0.02c (which I just added to the suggestions sub-forum, here):


Improving defensive PP options


Right now it is almost impossible to defend a system in power play. At most, CMDRs can attempt to counter-balance undermining by fortification. This is not only problematic for combat-only players (who can't really move the needle much with their paltry cargo space and limited trading knowledge to balance out fast-tracking costs). It also feels very frustrating for CMDRs trying to take down an invading force that they can't find and meet in the field because of their opponents Solo-ing or simply because of instancing issues (i.e. players who sit in empty instances because of crappy internet). In the meantime, traders flying in a power's HQ frequently complain about PP NPC interdictions in their power's HQ.
Therefore I suggest a (IMHO rather cheap) addition to the background simulation:
a system occupancy rate on a per-power basis
This rate would be calculated based on the worldwide number of PP-pledged players in Open that are in a system for a significant amount of time (e.g. >2 minutes).
This occupancy rate would be the determining factor for PowerPlay Combat NPC spawn quality and rates.


Example:
If 10 wings of ALD-pledged pilots stay in Pancienses for 2 hours to defend against Fed and Kumo underminers, a Solo player entering the system should have a high likelyhood of being interdicted by a Python wing of "Shield of Justice" NPCs (ALD PP Combat NPCs).


I was first just thinking of upping the spawn rates, but since PP Combat NPC kills in their territory counts toward merits, that would just create fodder for the invaders. The real problem with those NPCs is currently how underpowered they usually are. The AI can be really dangerous to most CMDRs nowadays, but only if they have a high level, a powerful ship and wing partners. If the enemy PP combat NPCs during my undermining operations had been anything but Eagles, Adders and the occasional Cobra, I would have had some real opposition, besides the few CMDRs I encountered.


I hope that this doesn't break any current "rules" that the design team has set, except of course that Solo/PG/Open wouldn't have the same impact on the background simulation when it comes to this variable. I feel the deviation is justified, since it balances the risk/reward calculation. Currently any "Open player" can switch over to Solo to lower her risk without any downside on reward. This means currently, all modes are not equal. After the proposed change, the risk in Solo would increase (if you are pledged to a power and go to a hostile & highly contested system), without any change to the reward side of the equation. Ideally, the spawn rates would increase exactly to the level that makes interdiction by an enemy PP ship in Solo just as likely as it is in Open in contested systems - thereby making all modes truly equal!


A great positive side effect of this would be that the power's HQ would see less and more thematically fitting opposition. Currently, Kamadhenu (ALD's HQ) seems to be crawling with Utopian's and Alliance PP NPCs. This never made any sense from a RP perspective and really negated the feeling of being in "your" space. If I usually only see Imperial ships in my system and then notice multiple, dangerous Federal Agents interdicting me, I know that there is an actual Fed operation underway somewhere and I have to react to that, even if I am playing Solo.


A negative side effect is that "inofficial" cross-power alliances (e.g. between Sirius and ALD) suddenly have a real downside. If a good number of ALD pilots help defend a Sirius system, they increase the chance of Sirius CMDRs being jumped by ALD NPCs. This would stiffle cooperation, at least among Powers from different Major factions. Maybe it is time to introduce more complexity in the cross-power model, e.g. a "neutral" status halfway between allied (e.g. between federal powers) and hostile. Fdev could manually update it regularly to reflect Galnet News entries about cooperations between powers. It would be different from allied, since blowing up allied ships leads to merit reductions. NPCs from neutral powers wouldn't automatically attack, but CMDRs might (or might not). In any case, killing ships from neutral powers wouldn't lead to merit reductions. This would give CMDRs who disagree with a cooperation (think of the GALNET-reported, controversial "Aisling/Winters" pact) an in-game opportunity to express their disagreement.


Possible variations:

• Don't just count the CMDRs in open who are in a system, also take their combat ranking (and/or Elite ranking) into account. Better pilots should yield more dangerous NPC spawns.
• Don't just count the CMDRs and their average combat ranking, but also their ship sizes and wing counts. Simply put, if a PG manages to field 10 four player wings with Elite pilots in Anacondas in one system, this should have a higher impact than having 40 harmless Sidewinders in system.
• I would also suggest to similarly increase the spawn rates in empty Open instances, i.e. players who are in open but won't ever see another CMDR because of their internet connection quality, but I feel this might complicate the proposed change to much. Since connection quality is not static, spawn rates would need to adjust dynamically based on the potential for connecting to another CMDR. And what if I happen to connect to 10 other players, but they are all from my faction and therefore I never see an enemy, but don't have a higher spawn rate? But then again, the netcode's matchmaking functions probably alread need to take power- and superpower(or major)-faction allegiance into account.

TL;DR count the numbers of PP-pledged CMDRs per faction in a system and adjust the PP NPC spawn quality and rate in that system accordingly, so that large-scale PP player fleet manouvers have a significant impact on all players!

 

[Dirk D]

Hello Sandro,

great that you started such a discussion!

Personally I don't participate much in PP anymore (not that I was very active). I only pledged to gain boni for bounty hunting which is my preferred play style and at the beginning to get access to the Imperial Hammer.

I like the general idea of PP but not so much the way it is implemented. It feels a bit like an awkward extension rather than a layer on top of the rest. One reason for that is the introduction of the merits and CC. Credits and ranks kind of feel real to me but merits and CC not. I would prefer a more indirect - under the hood - approach.

And thanks to the decay I would need to spend almost my complete gaming time to keep at a level. => the favour could be a good way to reduce the "I have to grind" feeling.

Freedom Fighter: I like that idea. An independent pilot gets caught up in a cause.

I am sure you also have considered implementing PP on top of the existing mechanism instead of the current way. What I mean is instead of having this separated missions it would incorporated into the mission system like this:

You start doing your stuff in a zone of influence of a Power. Like hunting pirates, delivering cargo etc. The bulletin board offers you missions by factions directly affiliated to the Powers.

After some successful operations you have built up a reputation and will be contacted more directly by Power contact. And you get operations like “We have seen our influence of system XYZ fading. Please deliver this propaganda material to XYZ to strengthen our position”.

And I could imagine these contact not only at stations but for example the pirate lord could interdict you with something like 8 elite vultures + anacondas, circle around you and you get the com message “we have seen you operating in our territory and we like what we see. Are you interested in a special mission? ”. Hard to say no ;-)

And maybe with increases reputation/level /whatever you could get access/permission to systems/stations that totally belongs to a power like a military output that is guarded by special forces. So players that have not achieved a high reputation/level will be attacked when approaching these stations. Special items like the Imperial Hammer could only be obtained at these stations.
The CC should be kept under the hood completely or until you reach that high level (lore explanation: you got into contact with high ranking power contacts who plan their activity more strategically and have a better insight. Something like that).

For me this would make the whole thing more personal and easier to get involved in.

Any thoughts on that?


And then there are some odd things like:
- Why can I get my weekly bonus outside of the systems that my power controls?
- If I am not mistaken I could by the imperial hammer anywhere not just in the controlled zone.
- Why could I get 15 PPs for killing ships in enemy territory but not for killing enemy ships within the territory of my power?
- Why is my Federation rank / reputation not decreasing when actively working for an Empire power?
Regards
Dirk

 

[Keltic Rage]

Wow.... All that sounds fantastic. I can not wait to see how/if your team fleshes that out.

I did have an additional thought about Powerplay yesterday. The ability to borrow money from a galactic bank. I don't have the details worked out, arguably because I haven't had the opportunity to dive into powerplay and therefor don't fully understand it.

But, I was thinking something like they would be another faction. The more money players borrowed the more influence they would have throughout he galaxy. The only way to stop their influence would be for the CMDR's of the game to stop borrowing money from them. Again, not fully fleshed out. Just a wild idea I concocted.

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

Personally its unlikely I will ever be interested in PP when the mechanic is focused on being in competition with my fellow power members, it just makes no sense to me that hurting my comrades would be my best course of action.

Secondly favour, on the surface it seems like a decent idea but in truth its just another convoluted layer trying to mask the fiasco that is merrit decay. You aren't dealing with the issue with favour, you are papering over a glaring and hated crack. Just address the problem rather than creating another one.

 

[Linebreaker]

Some nice ideas there, although the suggestion about favour doesn't work for me because i don't like how merits are earned in the first place.

I'm not a trader, i find trading boring, and supporting (fortification) is basically too similar to trading. Go to A collect, go to B deliver. Yes, i can undermine, but then that's not supporting my faction, and i see the need to ensure a power is fortified first.

So for me to get involved in Powerplay i need a way to earn support (fortification) merits by doing other activities, such as combat or mining, or delivering exploration data.... basically anything that isn't just run from A to B.

But... mining is running from RES A to Dock B :V

Combat does earn you artificial merit points, though. You prevent enemy Commanders from undermining, which is a valuable activity. because commanders can do this in Solo or Group play it dilutes its effectiveness, but it's still a setback for their faction!

But to expand on your idea: What if I want to undermine, but don't want to engage in combat? What if I just want to run from point A to point B delivering anti-undermining goods? Is that fair? Does it make sense?

I'm not attacking your idea here, I'm seeing if you have the conviction to support it with something fleshed out and concrete.

 

[Rubbernuke]

My life in PP last week was lived in protest zones where I blasted about 450 ships for a grand non profit of about 100,000 credits.

Will such combat actually ever be worth it? I would want to hear devs rebalancing this, as what's the point if a Fed fighter is worth the same as an Anaconda? I've given up on ranks as merit decay is just punishing, and I play every day! I would like to see PP combat be a good second source of income, in line with combat bonds, and make taking on a Python worth it merit and cred wise.

This sounds like a whine but I'm sorry: you should fix the basics first, and sort out this otherwise the slog just gets longer, with people risking death in combat zones getting little for the effort. I risk my 100 million credit ship in three hours of continuous combat, that deserves more than if I played delivery boy and fended off one attack every half hour.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Concerning favors :

• I think having favors on top of merits might be a bit too complicated. You might want to consider merits with no decay.
• If people have more ways to spend their merits than what they can earn, "decay" will happen naturally.
• Have 'ranks' based on how much you have in bank. Does not do anything special, just a fancy decal and votes. No salary.
• No limit on the number of PP cargo you can fast track in one go. Selling/delivering PP cargo nets 1K credits, replacing the 'free' cargo. At anypoint, one may exchange merits for 1:10K credits. This effectively replaces the salary. No free merits and timer

Spending merits :

Players need to have fancy and usefull ways to spend merits, such that the merit account effectively 'decays'

• Merits allow to buy ranked perks that last for 7 days. Most are tiered from 1 to 5, following the usual 'elite' cost function, ie. ~x3 per level. Effects granted goes linear with 'level'
• Eg1 : exploration project : gain +40/80/120/160/200% on the sale of exploration data.
• Eg2 : bounty hunter licence : gain +10/20/30/40/50% on bounties and combat bonds.
• Eg3 : black market network : gain +10/20/30/40/50% on stolen cargo / contraband sales.
• Eg4 : corporate insurance : insurance is reduced by 10/20/30/40/50%
• Eg5 : PP paintjob, does nothing but fancy. time limited to one week per purchase, may be bought permantly in the store for real money.
• Eg6 : prototype access : get access to the special PP module.
• and so on...

 

[Fracktal]

We greatly appreciate that you let the community contribute toimporve your ideas and PowerPlay overall.
Especially with all the negativity (unjustified in my opinion) it brought in forums, as I think it is great and original concept, adding a game in the game, while remaining totally optional.



Favour

I'm not really enthusiastic about adding another currency, but if it is going to be implemented then at least there should be various and reward-able use for it.

I would suggest another potential use for the "Favour" currency:
- Allow them to be used to refresh/shorten the "PowerPlay commodity" timer
- Allow use of Favour to Transfer Preparation/Expansion/Fortification from one system to another not having reach the trigger when applicable (to prevent exploiting).
I believe it would be great, if there was a way to counter Merit Farming, while giving some extra tasks (and maybe reward?) for CMDR trying to support their Power

I'm spending more a more time, just sitting in station waiting for the timer refresh, ALT-TAB to surf instead of actually playing the game.
I don't think this how you want us to "play" the game and I suspect many CMDR do the same as me.


Powerplay Flag

It will definitely add some Extra-Freedom and might bring back some CMDR in PP, so why not.

I would rather have some Diplomacy layer, affecting our reputation in other PP space ,introduced within the game(cf my suggestion in the 1st Feedback Post https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=163495&page=10&p=2497231#post2497231).
It is part of the Metagame as of now, being handled in Reddit and forums, excluding non-forum goers from the Conflicts/Alliances events.


Up/Down Vote

Really good suggestion. It can only improve the communication toward CMDR losts on where to put their effort.


Freedom Fighters

Again, more Freedom cannot do any harm.


More Powerful Ethos versus Government Effect

Good, but as mentioned it can be an Herculean task.
So there should be significant benefits for both the Power AND the players (Merits, Favour?) for such Minor faction control switching


CMDR Fracktal out.

 

[Cocalarix]

Small suggestion: How about making merits completely decay after 3-4 full cycles? It gives people the chance to try out Powerplay without worrying about decay and it's a lot less confusing.

 

[Tripfy]

Favor - would the overall change do anything about the need for grind just to hit Rank 5 and get the bonus?
Powerplay flag - this idea is same hazard like Solo play affecting powerplay, if player wishes to engage in Powerplay, they have to take it with risks that come along - more important info would be to find out, why in general cmdrs that don't want to be part of poweplay, do play it in first place - is it the specific reward after 4 weeks, or they want to be part of something bigger?

Up/Down vote - great idea, it's like tag lasers in Portal 2 - point at what you want to do

Freedom fighter - I would expand on this idea, introducing the Home system function - to give players after some time and effort spent in the system the ability to call it home, and if you would show enough of support, you would be given your own planet, for which you could order a special player station to store all that matters to you and be secured by local enforcers

Pp specific rewards after 4 weeks - Did you think of players that pledged to Power that they truly wish to support? So what such players have to do, in order to get other powers specific rewards? It feels like artifical brick wall just to limit players from gaining tech they want, first defect the power and then wait 4 weeks...

I honestly engaged in powerplay just for the bonuses and stats it gives, it flags me as enemy and Hostile when I'm allied and friendly with everyone, it sends hords of NPC sidewinders and adders at my Python and Conda...which somehow makes sense to the AI, but it annoys me after some time that for Enemy kill I gain 400 cr and such started ships even consider attack on me

Pp is only used to gain bonuses that powers offer, look at Arissa - ppl deliver supplies not to the needed systems, but to the closes ones, there is no reason why to bother trying to carry the supplies 150 ly from HQ when you gain same amount of merits and won't see most of players anyway, because they do all this in SOLO
Solo should have been offline mode, when this was ditched I canceled my Elite Beta interest...

 

[jadefriendly]

the one thing that would get me involved in powerplay is MISSIONS

particularly - missions that are more than just "carry X cargo from A to B" or "go shoot this guy in an USS"

something like:

• go to X location, we have a vessel under attack. Then dropping in to defend a T-9 etc. - or flipside, engaging in a large scale attack.
• follow this ship - chase a ship through systems to see where they end up, then return and report
• "find X wares" with them being a variety of different things, requiring a few different locations - long distance (rares?)
• we are looking for locations for a facility we wish to go un-noticed. bring us X system scans of unpopulated systems from over 100ly away

 

[Lord_Crazy]

I like these ideas overall, especially the Flag and the Upvote/Downvote, yet with a noticeable exception: the Favour system.

While I am glad OP successfully identified the issue, I don't think adding a new "currency" - and therefore a new level of intricacy - would be best way to address this issue. Instead why don't we keep the merit system but prevent it from decaying. In order to balance that, perks would not be automatically unlocked after a certain threshold, but would actually be bought by player on a per-cycle basis with said merits.
Example : I pledged to ALD and like her 20% bounty bonus. Each cycle I would spend merits on this to enable the perk. The result would be simple: people not playing a lot would not see their merits vanish, while only those playing more could unlock all the perks every cycle. There would still be an incentive for regular players, while occasional players would not face the frustration due to decay. Finally it would keep things simple (perk = spending merits) rather than adding a new currency.

 

[Space Fan]

the one thing that would get me involved in powerplay is MISSIONS

particularly - missions that are more than just "carry X cargo from A to B" or "go shoot this guy in an USS"

something like:

• go to X location, we have a vessel under attack. Then dropping in to defend a T-9 etc. - or flipside, engaging in a large scale attack.
• follow this ship - chase a ship through systems to see where they end up, then return and report
• "find X wares" with them being a variety of different things, requiring a few different locations - long distance (rares?)
• we are looking for locations for a facility we wish to go un-noticed. bring us X system scans of unpopulated systems from over 100ly away

It seems it has *always* been about missions. FD seem to have an almost inbuilt philosophy against them - but it's been said a thousand times, so not much point in my repeating

+1 anyway.

Edit: for 'missions' I guess you could read 'stories', or snippets of stories. In a sense, this *is* in keeping with the idea of the game. But building a galaxy transporting stuff and killing random things makes the players more like ants in a colony for the background sim, and we're a little above ants in evolutionary terms. Maybe that's the problem. Just a thought..

 

[Rubbernuke]

This is PP future, as predicted by Adam and Joe:

[video=youtube;CfgRGW9Ghik]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfgRGW9Ghik[/video]

Simplicity wins out, one well thought out rule is better than two bad ones!

 

[jadefriendly]

It seems it has *always* been about missions. FD seem to have an almost inbuilt philosophy against them - but it's been said a thousand times, so not much point in my repeating

+1 anyway.

Edit: for 'missions' I guess you could read 'stories', or snippets of stories. In a sense, this *is* in keeping with the idea of the game. But building a galaxy transporting stuff and killing random things makes the players more like ants in a colony for the background sim, and we're a little above ants in evolutionary terms. Maybe that's the problem. Just a thought..

yep, missions is definitely part of the game that really needs some love.
would go a long way to quickly dealing with the "mile wide, inch deep" and "solo game lacks personality, life, or content" complaints.
they don't even need to be hugely financially rewarding - just interesting & challenging
i'd love to see non-credit rewards for missions: decals, custom (lightweight / overpowered / heat resistant) modules & weapons, paintjobs, permits, etc.

edit: i digress. this thread is meant to be about PP. sorry!