Powerplay: Ideas from the devs - Feedback wanted! #3

So my question is: would you prefer to see the merit system mutate into something like the favour system, rather than have both active at the same time (I think something along those lines has cropped up a couple of times)? Before you respond, have a think about what would be gained versus what would be lost: the system would be simpler, but less dynamic. In essence, it would likely be a little more like a XP bar/resource.

Reason why Favor sounds better because it gives a choice. Choice how commander can spend favor he gained. It doesn't force him to "grind" if he wants something from power. About keeping both them - it would make sense if you can give higher benefits for those doing mundane stuff day by day for power. So Favors could be something more suited for mission like, and current system is more suited for more like resource based gameplay. If you can give each of them unique twist and have unique rewards, They can both stay. I would see it that those who grind are very dedicated and should be rewarded a lot higher than those just doing favors for you.
 
Great to see that background sim and PP will eventually become integrated!!!

<snip>...

The question is: how will PP and the background simulation (BGS) be integrated? Will PP blend into the existing BGS enhancing it and thereby (hopefully) enhancing the whole game of Elite? Or will the BGS and the whole game of Elite blend into PP? The first option would be a win/win, the second option would be disastrous.

Sorry for sounding gloomy, I just realised after reading Sandro's answers that PP is here to stay in Elite. He really believes in PP and he is the lead designer so that's it.
 
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Hi,

I think these can work provided you make them work in context with the game and have plausible explanations for them. If you can't then that's telling you not to implement them.

All I ask is that you don't just make something like the powerplay flag (or any other ideas) an arbitrary toggle switch somewhere - build it into the game. For example, it could be implemented as a leave of absence that you can take with a power after you've done a certain amount of service for a certain period. Treated like this it adds to the atmosphere of the game, it's plausible and opens up other ideas. This also makes it easier to set plausible, believable rules as you have a context for the idea to work from

Taking the above as an example, it would follow sensibly that


1. You wouldn't be able to take a leave of absence if you hadn't worked for the power for at least a small amount of time - what power would sensibly grant you that.
2. You wouldn't be able to take indefinite leave either - that wouldn't make sense from the power perspective
3. There would be a minimum time also that the power would be happy to grant - perhaps it can be taken in weeks etc.


Now if you can also make this set plausible rules also work in to stop gaming exploitations at the same time then you've cracked it! Though I appreciate that's not easy - but it's what I'd be aiming for.

Now above is only one idea for a context for the a plausible explanation of a Powerplay flag - there will be many others. But all I'd ask is that you try to make these options fit into the game world in a plausible, atmospheric way. Make them "stay in character" and exploit them to there maximum in terms of building up story and atmosphere.

Remember, in Elite "I am the pilot of that ship" and anything you add that can reinforce that or even enhance it just makes the whole experience better.

Thanks for a great game and looking forward to 1.4!
 
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The question is: how will PP and the background simulation (BGS) be integrated? Will PP blend into the existing BGS enhancing it and thereby (finally) enhancing the whole game of Elite? Or will the BGS and the whole game of Elite blend into PP? The first option would be a win/win, the second option would be disastrous.

Sorry for sounding gloomy, I just realised after reading Sandro's answers that PP is here to stay in Elite. He really believes in PP and he is the lead designer so thats it.

It is not about integration. It is about each of system impacting each other. We have already some of PP effects on systems and there will be more. Now there are multiple ideas thrown around how PP might impact system political change, etc. that kind of stuff. And vice versa - how changes in minor faction standings in particular systems make for example easier for undermining.

It won't "merge", but they will have profound effect to each other.
 
Favour
This is a very nice idea. Earn Favour to buy items or bonus from your power but it won't work with Rating that could be decay. In other MMO game it work like this: Rating is permanent and u use your hard earning Favour to buy items and bonus from rating. The more rating u have the more useful items or bonus u can purchase. BUT this won't solve "Commanders who perhaps don't have much time to devote to the game". Preparation and Fortification need TON of money and people who have no time have no money so they hardly earn merit or even Favour.

Powerplay Flag
"locked in and unable to enjoy the freedom the game normally offered them because of the extra dangers they faced." Powerplay send you to war with other people so extra danger couldn't be avoid. I agree with the Locked in and the unable to enjoy what this game offer. What are this game offer? Mining, Trading, Mission, Bounty Hunt, Rat fuel, Smuggling, Community Goal, Exploration, etc... but Powerplay offer only Trade item A to B and kill baby ships. Why leave all good things this game offer out? Use what you have Frontier !!

My suggestion

Preparation - transport token A to B as usual

Expansion - integrate Community Goal depend on the type of that system. For example, Extraction system will need a lot of Silver to help the expansion. People who have no money can help by go mining.

Fortification - Integrate Missions by going into controlled system and pick special missions for powerplay. Mining, Trading, Bounty, or whatever missions. Each mission will give Favour and improve your Rating.

About Powerplay Flag I think it will add more problems. "If you not showing ur flag I will F* kill ya or Kaboom..Oop!..I thought u are Hudson."

Up/Down Vote
Vote won't help if people go for easy merit farm. If Vote can give benefit to the most vote systems then it may help.

Freedom Fighters
Well, if it won't kill the Main Powerplay then why not. Only Few people support Panav Antal i think u should fix this first.

More Powerful Ethos versus Government Effect
Power that has more people will have more advantage on this buff. It's an extra but not necessary. Better focus improve on how to make Preparation, Expansion, and Fortification more fun.

(Sorry, my english is bad.)
 
Cool Ideas, I think they could add something to Powerplay for sure.

Favour I think is a great idea and adds a little more realism, It's not very realistic that I can rise to rank 5, stop playing for a couple of weeks and I'm back to rank 1.

Powerplay flag I also feel is a very good idea. I like Powerplay, but it's true, I don't always want to have everything I do be driven by it. I definitely would like the idea of being able to revert to a normal commander without having to leave my power. One question though about the flag. If I decide to hide my allegiance for a while could something like a rank freeze be implemented? My rank won't decay as long as I'm not involved in powerplay or something?

Up/Down votes
sound like it could work, but it also sounds like it could be terrible. The thing is, many people who participate in powerplay have absolutely no idea how it works. I have to say I am a one of these people, I am pledged to Felicia Winters, I'm even rank 3, but I have no idea what we ought to be doing, what the best strategy is, who our main rival is, which systems to expand into, if we should expand, or rather fortify, or undermine (have to admit I never knew how to undermine until a few days ago), I would only be able to guess. So in the end you may be left with a bunch of random up/down votes from people who know nothing whatsoever, and only confuse the matter. If you want my opinion, you should probably only give the ability to vote to the very high ranked players, maybe even only rank 5 commanders. By giving the ability to vote to only the very highest ranked makes being high ranked much more desireable, and the feeling that your vote really matters as it will be one of only a few.

Adding to this idea, I think what may even be more fun, is to have a single decision maker at the top of each power that changes week to week, the honor could go to the very highest ranked commander in each power at the end of each cycle. This commader would then be given the ability to definitively set a strategy for the week based on the votes of the other high ranked commanders, picking which systems to expand into, which to fortify, where to undermine, etc... Other commanders wouldn't be forced to follow the strategy, but at least it would be clearly defined for all commanders and would give more of a team feeling. A limit of how many weeks a top commander can stay in power could be set, like no more than 1 or 2 weeks before you must change, and you can't be top commander again for X many cycles or whatever. This I think could really change powerplay, It would give a real incentive for people to rank up, with the possibility of being a really big deal for a week or two. Your name could be mentioned in Galnet reports and so on, maybe even recieve personal messages from your power's character thanking you for your service. Of course, unfortunately, this would be a position that would basically be impossible for a casual player to ever reach, but I think that's fair, a casual player couldn't claim to be more qualified, however might, if the "favour" mechanic is implemented, at least be able to reach a rank that is able to vote on strategy.

Wow, that whole idea came to me as I was typing it, need to catch my breath for a moment.

Freedom Fighters
sounds neat as well, but I need a little clarification. If I'm a freedom fighter in a system in Winter's space, that means I will be opposing Winters and fighting for freedom from her power? What if I want to pledge to a system in Winter's space, but I'm cool with her, I don't want to pledge to winters, but I don't want to oppose her either. Does that make any sense, or am I getting the whole idea wrong?

More Powerful Ethos versus Government Effect I honestly think I'm not qualified to comment on this, I didn't know about flipping systems already, and I don't really understand how this new mechanic would funtion, so I'll just leave that for the better qualified to comment on.

Missions, variety and rewards: yes.
 
The question is: how will PP and the background simulation (BGS) be integrated? Will PP blend into the existing BGS enhancing it and thereby (hopefully) enhancing the whole game of Elite? Or will the BGS and the whole game of Elite blend into PP? The first option would be a win/win, the second option would be disastrous.

Sorry for sounding gloomy, I just realised after reading Sandro's answers that PP is here to stay in Elite. He really believes in PP and he is the lead designer so that's it.



It seems clear to me that Elite is to become PowerPlay.

Sandro will steamroller this into being, whether we like it or not.
 
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I will personally stop playing if there is no way to counter the powers.

I understand a small percent of the population plays powerplay properly (as in smart, with actual regard for lore) while others abuse it for credits and modules.

This hurts the people who play powerplay for legit reasons and as well the people who don't want anything to do with it.

Please give us a unified group like freedom fighters to push the powers back and I will gladly do this. I don't care if I'm hunted by RPrs to SGR A*

Anything would be better than having to bow my head to the powers as an indie pilot. I will fight tooth and nail to get my home back.
 
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It seems clear to me that Elite is to become PowerPlay.

Sandro will steamroller this into being, whether we like it or not.


Come on, don't be like that, He's specifically started a thread asking for our thoughts on future improvements. Yes Powerplay is here to stay, but they want our feedback about how to make it better, how many other game developers would do that? I don't think Sandro is steam rolling anything, I think Fdev is probably very much behind powerplay. And Elite is not Powerplay, if you feel like it is becoming so, you ought to say it without being condescending, and I wouldn't be surprised if they would answer you personally.
 
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It seems clear to me that Elite is to become PowerPlay.

Sandro will steamroller this into being, whether we like it or not.


To be fair to Sandro, he did ask for feedback in these threads and I believe him when he says he wants to work with the community (should have been done before PP was released). But in the end he believes in the concept of PP so there will be tweaks (favours, PP-flag, etc) but no fundamental changes. Given the amount of work already put into PP I'm afraid that in the long run Elite will be absorbed into PP and not the other way around.
 
Maybe it is not a big deal. As I said this issue would affetc more OPEN play. Hard to say until the system is tested:

Undermining players in an enemy control system, weather WANTED or not, currenlty typically would not pay much attention to non aligned players in a system they are undermining. Their own eventual WANTED bounties are not huge anyways and non aligned players would typically also go about their business seeing those WANTED pledged ships as busy with their PP stuff. Those encounters between pledged (WANTED or not) and non pledged ships are usually quiet affairs (unless they want to PvP for the sake of it).

Under a flag system, undermining players in enemy territory will most likely end up attacking preemptively anyone non aligned in the area when faced with the doubt. Because they know enemy Power ships with the flag off are also justified to attack given the undermining players WANTED status. Bountyhunting rights is all they need to actually play PP undercover, and those undermining ships will usually get WANTED status pretty fast.

In other words, with a flag system, OPEN pledged players have no incentive at all / dont need to have the flag on when playing PP defense.

I wonder whether PP defense would be enhanced if interdicted PP NPCs (undermining targets) were able to squawk the event to ships in that system, thereby creating a PoI in supercruise that other local ships from that Power (players and NPCs) could drop in at. That might give some fun friday nights!
 
Come on, don't be like that, He's specifically started a thread asking for our thoughts on future improvements. Yes Powerplay is here to stay, but they want our feedback about how to make it better, how many other game developers would do that? I don't think Sandro is steam rolling anything, I think Fdev is probably very much behind powerplay. And Elite is not Powerplay, if you feel like it is becoming so, you ought to say it without being condescending, and I wouldn't be surprised if they would answer you personally.

PowerPlay is part ot ED, and is here to stay. It's a part you can ignore if you are just a lone wolf merc - ergo I am confused why such hostility. It will get improved a lot - as evident by Sandro posts. But it will impact galaxy in a big way and will drive story forward.

- - - Updated - - -

To be fair to Sandro, he did ask for feedback in these threads and I believe him when he says he wants to work with the community (should have been done before PP was released). But in the end he believes in the concept of PP so there will be tweaks (favours, PP-flag, etc) but no fundamental changes. Given the amount of work already put into PP I'm afraid that in the long run Elite will be absorbed into PP and not the other way around.

PP is part of Elite, like it or not. However, besides background effects, I really fail to see how it affects rest of the game.
 
I like everything here, except for the upvote / downvote idea. I think the concept is a good one, but just a simple up or down vote just feels like another preparation vote, only it doesn't actually count for anything- especially if you make the number of votes scale with rating. Fixing the votes to one per cmdr, per system, per action would help distinguish then, and make the provide a clearer picture of what the group on the whole wants, and not just what a few, especially-influential (potentially 5th columning) people want.
 
PowerPlay is part ot ED, and is here to stay. It's a part you can ignore if you are just a lone wolf merc - ergo I am confused why such hostility. It will get improved a lot - as evident by Sandro posts. But it will impact galaxy in a big way and will drive story forward.


Yes, but the fundamental question for me is: who's story? My story as a (not always) lone CMDR blazing his trail in the Galaxy or the story of a blue-haired soap opera princess? I feel no connection with her (or any other of the soap opera figures) because I am not into that kind of stories. But in PP I am supposed to give up blazing my own trail and to start blazing her trail. That is totally counter to the lore of the Elite games in my opinion.

Of course I can simply ingnore PP but, as I said. I'm afraid that Elite gets absorbed into PP and at some point the unique Elite-ness of the game will be gone for me.
 
To be fair to Sandro, he did ask for feedback in these threads and I believe him when he says he wants to work with the community (should have been done before PP was released). But in the end he believes in the concept of PP so there will be tweaks (favours, PP-flag, etc) but no fundamental changes. Given the amount of work already put into PP I'm afraid that in the long run Elite will be absorbed into PP and not the other way around.


Sigh. I understand.

I don't mean to be bitter or tough on Sandro; It's just I'm an original 84' Elite player and have seen other space games build upon its greatness.
I hoped that, if the eventual reboot could incorporate even some of today's space/sci fi concepts for story/missions etc
then my dreams would be realised. (you must admit engaging missions/content and story are not too hard to come up with with everything that's out there)

The resources required for powerplay and the time to required properly fix/restructure and balance it, makes me wince.

The possibilities for missions/content/story could have been limitless; but instead of Elite, first becoming the best is could be in this area, valuable personnel and
time and resources are being expended on a concept, (whilst epic in scale),after launching into the live environment; is barely functional.

The worst part is that the previously thriving, united and growing, community goal CMDR's; that were really communicating and working together to hit targets etc has been destroyed. When thousands used to gather in a shared goal and follow story, we are now fractured and few due to powerplay being attempted and disliked causing CMDRS to quit completely.

I hope one day we can return to those pre 1.3 levels of group participation and camaraderie.

PS

If the current community goal is really part of the long term story (plague and possibly Thargoid involvement)
then it is being missed by distracted CMDRS that are concentrating on grinding merits and ferrying paperwork in order to get a supposedly better weapon; that can actually turn out to be worse and not worth the effort.
 
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If the current community goal is really part of the long term story (plague and possibly Thargoid involvement)
then it is being missed by distracted CMDRS that are concentrating on grinding merits and ferrying paperwork in order to get a supposedly better weapon; that can actually turn out to be worse and not worth the effort.

This saddens me too and that's why i think PP and CG in their implemntation are competitive in a bad way, make CG give Merit too and at least we could have something in common between the 2
 
naaa - Favour is just a quickfix

Favour
Part of Powerplay is about rewarding effort, which is why the merit system works as it does. However, there has been lots of feedback from Commanders who perhaps don’t have much time to devote to the game, let alone Powerplay; they make a very reasonable argument that potential gameplay is locked from them based on arbitrary time limits rather than skill or something equally nice.

Whilst I think it’s fair to suggest that time paid in can be considered effort of a sort, it got me thinking: perhaps there might be a reasonable compromise. The result: “Favour”.

The idea behind this suggestion is that each time a Commander earns a merit, they also earn a favour. However, favour does not decay – it’s a permanent resource (well, permanent as long as the power remains active, of course).

At any time during a cycle, a Commander could “spend” favour to trigger a an individual rating’s benefits until the next cycle. The cost of triggering a rating’s benefits would likely be significantly more than the merit total required to activate them, keeping merits as the “supercharged” currency of Powerplay.

Such a system would mean however, that Commanders would not necessarily have to put large amounts of constant effort in to taste the benefits a power might offer, instead building up their rewards over time in a piecemeal fashion and choosing when to execute them.

With such a system, I believe we could also consider reverting the way merits rewards are calculated back to the more competitive allocation method we started with, where rating requirements are based on success versus one’s peers as opposed to an arbitrary threshold. I know that this proved less than popular in the first instance, but I’d be interested if folk might reconsider its value if coupled with a favour system for the less competitive power supporters. Don’t worry if you strongly disagree, just say so!

ça roule ma poule ?
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Now that we clarified this ;), my thought on Favour. To me this sounds like a quick fix, which is not attractive to me to start playing PP. Is like a reward card at Target (US supermarket, just in case ...) - you go once or twice a year there, but each time you regret it and the goodies you get aren't worth to become a regular customer.
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I like the stories around PP and the daily read. But this could have been just a storyline to add to ED as such for some depth. If there would be an option to remove PP from the game, I'd pick this. Not sure why Mr DB agreed on implementing this in the first place. ok. off topic. It made ED less attractive, but I decided to ignore it for the way I like to play the game.
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I like to support a local group in e.g. Nidarijedi, become friendly with them and support their expansion. That is where I feel I have some impact (kind of). and I can play this in solo or a group. PP, on the other hand I think it makes only sense to play in open for the known reasons (e.g. blockade, forced way to induce player interaction, ...). Would my local group be linked to any of the three large dominions (imp, fed, ali) as it is, cool, but I can do this without pledging and worrying about the PP folks.
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Back to Favour - fix the mechanics instead of adding another layer of abstraction. It makes it even harder to grasp. Less is more, i.e. KISS.
 
Powerplay Flag
I make no bones about my personal support for Powerplay: I love it. Grand scale power-struggles, driven entirely by Commanders, with special supporter rewards and legible, dynamically altering system rules that affect all Commanders, not just supporters.

But of course, I would say that J.

However, looking at the feedback, I observed an interesting theme: Commanders upset by the perception that once pledged to a power they felt “locked in” and unable to enjoy the freedom the game normally offered them because of the extra dangers they faced.

Again, whilst there are reasonable counters, we had a think to see what kind of options we might employ to directly address this concern, because it is a legitimate one: in general you are at significantly greater risk when pledged. The coolness of space geography offered by Powerplay does come with this increased, potentially oppressive, danger.

After a lot of furrowed brows and sugar-filled cakes, we have a suggestion that I’d love to get feedback on. Again, remember, this is just us brainstorming. We’re not locking anything in, we just want Commander opinion.

The suggestion is, simply enough, giving the ability for a Commander to toggle their Powerplay status to be active or hidden.

Now, an ability as powerful as this would absolutely have to have some pretty iron-cast rules to prevent exploitation and to keep pledging as an important decision. We’re talking within the realms of having significant enforced cool downs when hiding your powerplay status before you get the benefits (e.g. when you switch to hidden you lose all Powerplay benefits and the ability to affect Powerplay immediately, but remain visible as a target for a significant amount of time. In addition, perhaps you can only cycle this flag when docked at a starport or outpost in one of your power’s control systems).

We *think* this might give a couple of fairly strong benefits: It would hopefully reinstate to a greater degree the freedom for Commanders to choose how they spend their time.

It might also tempt more Commanders to sign up to a power, feeling a little safer in the knowledge that they would not necessarily have to swim with space sharks *all* the time thereafter.

We also think that the Powerplay flag idea and favours work well together, as they both support more freedom without taking too much away from the importance of pledging to a power.

So, such an ability as the Powerplay flag would need to be carefully controlled to prevent it from undermining Powerplay, but do you guys and gals think it would be worth the effort?
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No. Was suggested in the forum several times. What's the point? You make the decision to go with a power or not. This game should have some character, no be a pleaser. Play PP or ignore it.
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Suggestion: I only see the point if there would be stealth/infiltration missions. Anyhow, a e.g. warrant scan should reveal the power one pledged to and should remove the flag until back in the power territory. That would be nice and difficult at the same time.
 
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Sandro Sammarco

Lead Designer
Frontier
Hello Commander Raist!

Don't worry, I'm not going to try to force you to like Powerplay :). But I do have a few comments you might find interesting.

Firstly, and importantly, Elite will not "become" Powerplay. It kind of can't, really. It's an addition to the background simulation, nothing more or less. Now you don't have to believe me, but we are working on lots of other stuff as well, equally important, and covering different aspects of the game, including the "core" experience, if you will. Elite is still about the actions you take as the Commander of a space ship.

When I look at Powerplay, what I actually see, at its heart, is a part of the background simulation where AI is replaced with human Commanders. When you think about it in terms of its systems, that shouldn't be too much of an outlandish concept. And I hold that there's something pretty cool about this, for everyone, including Commanders who have nothing to do with Powerplay directly.

So yes, we want to work on the system to increase the fun factor, make the rewards for taking part more appropriate, but it's key to remember that this is only to keep interesting shifts in the backdrop for everyone.

I can understand the fear that Powerplay is all there is, simply because it's the most visible thing at the moment. That's because it's live, and because we feel it could benefit from changes (and this is why we're talking, right :)).

There's other stuff coming, and I reckon, in time, people are going to realise that Powerplay is just another facet, another way to play the game, but certainly not the only way, and certainly not the "best" way.

So, I could be wrong, but I think an amount of the flak that the system is getting is down to this mismatch in perception of how important Powerplay is. The truth is, as long as Powerplay's interesting enough for *some* folk, it's working. But that shouldn't mean we don't try to maximize the number of folk who like it, surely?

In conclusion, for those folk who dislike Powerplay: that's fine, but there's no need to dislike it purely on the grounds that it is Elite. It's not. It's a bit of Elite, like trading, minor factions, the crime system etc.

We have an ongoing dev cycle for the game, for which I'm eternally grateful to the powers that be for, because it means we get to carry on making things better and better in this game I love. And part of that cycle is this bit, where we get to collect feedback from the folk who play the game, which, traumatic though it can be - I also love! :)
 
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