Powerplay: Ideas from the devs - Feedback wanted! #3

Sigh. I understand.

I don't mean to be bitter or tough on Sandro; It's just I'm an original 84' Elite player and have seen other space games build upon its greatness.
I hoped that, if the eventual reboot could incorporate even some of today's space/sci fi concepts for story/missions etc
then my dreams would be realised. (you must admit engaging missions/content and story are not too hard to come up with with everything that's out there)

The resources required for powerplay and the time to required properly fix/restructure and balance it, makes me wince.

The possibilities for missions/content/story could have been limitless; but instead of Elite, first becoming the best is could be in this area, valuable personnel and
time and resources are being expended on a concept, (whilst epic in scale),after launching into the live environment; is barely functional.

The worst part is that the previously thriving, united and growing, community goal CMDR's; that were really communicating and working together to hit targets etc has been destroyed. When thousands used to gather in a shared goal and follow story, we are now fractured and few due to powerplay being attempted and disliked causing CMDRS to quit completely.

I hope one day we can return to those pre 1.3 levels of group participation and camaraderie.

PS

If the current community goal is really part of the long term story (plague and possibly Thargoid involvement)
then it is being missed by distracted CMDRS that are concentrating on grinding merits and ferrying paperwork in order to get a supposedly better weapon; that can actually turn out to be worse and not worth the effort.


I understand what you mean. PP has had an equally chilling effect on CMDR to CMDR chat. Before PP I regularly had chats with other CMDRs I met when roaming around. Since PP was released most CMDRs immediately hyperspace away when they see other CMDRs for fear of being attacked. I blame the unrealistically high level of aggression of Powers towards each other throughout the whole inhabited bubble.
 
Thanks Sandro,

We appreciate you coming here too.

I did post about ideas for Explorers but it got lost in 'other stuff'. Let me know if you need me to re-post it. I've started another discussion to try and draw comments from other explorers who might like to get behind a power.

CT
 
Sorry, I haven't read most of this thread. Just my thoughts. Most of the proposed changes are great. I'm all in favour of up/down votes, freedom fighters, proposed ethos vs gov changes, and powerplay flags (decals!).

But the notion of "favours" seems odd. It adds another unintuitive game mechanic. Rather than integrating Powerplay better with the rest of the game, it takes it further away with its own multi-level scoreboards. Still, I understand the point that time-strapped players should occasionally savour the joys regularly experienced by the hard-core gamers.

I’d propose to use all merits as currency. Non-decaying. You build up merits gradually and then use them to ‘purchase’ the benefits of a given rank whenever you please. So those with lots of time can “buy” their top rank every week, and those gaining merits more slowly can buy a rank when they can afford it. Merits would have a maximum value so they can’t go above what’s required for level 5. Or if you really want an infinite ladder, extra merits could be used for additional up/down votes for example.

I also like that you want to integrate Powerplay better with the game. Here are my suggestions:

First, drop major faction reputation and replace it with reputation at the power level instead. So you'd have a reputation with each power. Doing good works within a power's area, would increase your reputation with that power, even if you haven't pledged. This reputation would decay, as currently, to 'friendly' just before 'allied'. Reputations would be somewhat linked across major factions so that killing, say, Empire ships would hurt your reputation with all the empire-aligned powers, etc. This alone would integrate Powerplay into the regular game so much.

Second, introduce an extra pool of CC (capped) that comes from CGs, missions from power contacts, and just doing good stuff within a power’s area. A local faction going into a boom state should always increase that location’s CC a little bit that week. This means that players can help their faction by doing other positive stuff, in addition to the missions you talked about.
 
Last edited:
Hello Commanders!
merit decay is present specifically to reward Commanders who put in more effort over time than their peers. This is true, even in the current implementation, even though you don't actually compete.

I think that the credit rewards (for Commanders who put in more effort over time than their peers) would work just as well if it was directly calculated on the weekly activity instead of unlocking ranks.
Or better yet forget merits all together, just directly reward credits instead of merits in addition to the favours.
 

Space Fan

Banned
Hello Commander Raist!

Don't worry, I'm not going to try to force you to like Powerplay :). But I do have a few comments you might find interesting.

Firstly, and importantly, Elite will not "become" Powerplay. It kind of can't, really. It's an addition to the background simulation, nothing more or less. Now you don't have to believe me, but we are working on lots of other stuff as well, equally important, and covering different aspects of the game, including the "core" experience, if you will. Elite is still about the actions you take as the Commander of a space ship.

When I look at Powerplay, what I actually see, at its heart, is a part of the background simulation where AI is replaced with human Commanders. When you think about it in terms of its systems, that shouldn't be too much of an outlandish concept. And I hold that there's something pretty cool about this, for everyone, including Commanders who have nothing to do with Powerplay directly.

So yes, we want to work on the system to increase the fun factor, make the rewards for taking part more appropriate, but it's key to remember that this is only to keep interesting shifts in the backdrop for everyone.

I can understand the fear that Powerplay is all there is, simply because it's the most visible thing at the moment. That's because it's live, and because we feel it could benefit from changes (and this is why we're talking, right :)).

There's other stuff coming, and I reckon, in time, people are going to realise that Powerplay is just another facet, another way to play the game, but certainly not the only way, and certainly not the "best" way.

So, I could be wrong, but I think an amount of the flak that the system is getting is down to this mismatch in perception of how important Powerplay is. The truth is, as long as Powerplay's interesting enough for *some* folk, it's working. But that shouldn't mean we don't try to maximize the number of folk who like it, surely?

In conclusion, for those folk who dislike Powerplay: that's fine, but there's no need to dislike it purely on the grounds that it is Elite. It's not. It's a bit of Elite, like trading, minor factions, the crime system etc.

We have an ongoing dev cycle for the game, for which I'm eternally grateful to the powers that be for, because it means we get to carry on making things better and better in this game I love. And part of that cycle is this bit, where we get to collect feedback from the folk who play the game, which, traumatic though it can be - I also love! :)

Lovely post. :)
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
The question is: how will PP and the background simulation (BGS) be integrated? Will PP blend into the existing BGS enhancing it and thereby (hopefully) enhancing the whole game of Elite? Or will the BGS and the whole game of Elite blend into PP? The first option would be a win/win, the second option would be disastrous.

Sorry for sounding gloomy, I just realised after reading Sandro's answers that PP is here to stay in Elite. He really believes in PP and he is the lead designer so that's it.

Lots of great advice already in this thread, and the previous ones from Sandro, about ways to integrate the and PP.
 
Last edited:
Regarding the PowerPlay flag, simply adding the option to temporarily leave your power rather than permanently, and treating it as a leave of absence or voluntarily suspension of membership for a while, and then rejoining when it suits might work. Add in various conditions and provisos - you must request leave (and possibly a return to active duty) at a control system, you cannot take leave if you have PP commodities in your cargo hold, you cannot defect during your leave or for seven days afterwards, you cannot earn any merits or undertake any PP actions and you cannot earn a PP salary. You essentially become temporarily unpledged.

Some others have suggested a loyalty mechanic. I actually quite like this concept. It could be a value determined by factors such as number of defections, time in service. merits earned versus merits lost (hold full of paperwork but ship blown up? Oh dear, HQ's not going to look favourably on that) and so on. Combining this with the leave option might work - take too much time off and your power will have little faith in your ability. Not yet sure how this might impact gameplay though. Maybe loyalty is rewarded with more/better missions once they're implemented, bonus merits or some other perk that is separate to the existing ranks.

But the notion of "favours" seems odd. It adds another unintuitive game mechanic. Rather than integrating Powerplay better with the rest of the game, it takes it further away with its own multi-level scoreboards. Still, I understand the point that time-strapped players should occasionally savour the joys regularly experienced by the hard-core gamers.

I’d propose to use all merits as currency. Non-decaying. You build up merits gradually and then use them to ‘purchase’ the benefits of a given rank whenever you please. So those with lots of time can “buy” their top rank every week, and those gaining merits more slowly can buy a rank when they can afford it. Merits would have a maximum value so they can’t go above what’s required for level 5. Or if you really want an infinite ladder, extra merits could be used for additional up/down votes for example.

Definitely in favour of this concept. Simple, dynamic and inclusive.
 
Last edited:
Sandro, first of all, a big thanks to you and your team for interacting with the players and giving us the chance to influence PowerPlay.
Personally, I am taking a break from PP right now, but will likely pledge again when the rules/elements of pp feel more rewarding or/and immersive. Here are my comments on your ideas:

Favour
Strongly against unless tested thoroughly in beta.
I am absolutely in favour of encouraging more time-constrained CMDRs to take up and enjoy pp. This concept, however, feels like an unnecessary quick fix. Why not refine the formula for merit decay e.g. into low/medium/high echelons and significantly stretch the decay for the lower echelon?
And please, if possible, refrain from resurrecting the idea of ranking CMDRs within a power against their peers. I love Elite:Dangerous, but would not like Elite:Crew_of_cutthroats.


Powerplay Flag

A big yes under the conditions you already described! However, with merits decaying as quickly as they currently do, unpledging does not really hurt after 2 weeks, even less if leaving a rank <5.


Up/Down Vote
Great idea (it has been on the forum for a while, IIRC) - I really hope this one gets implemented asap.


Freedom Fighters
good idea, but not a priority


More Powerful Ethos versus Government Effect
Looking forward to this - LATER ;-)


Missions, Variety and Rewards
Yes, please - IMHO this has a higher priority than the two ideas above.

Regards,
a slightly more optimistic
CMDR Apis_Levitans
 
We need an alternative source for getting materials for fortification so borders would get closer to each other.

Forward bases - a system selected by players of the faction and effective for only a week then a new system is selected. Method of selection would be nominations. The forward base would dispense fortification materials and will stop doing so if it is undermined or cancelled.

Optional: The power can reactivate dispensing of fortification materials if they get the system fortified 100% above undermining levels. Of course, the materials to fortify the forward base would need to come from the headquarters.

Having a forward base too close to enemy borders would make it very easily undermined and very hard to fortify which would encourage players to be careful with selection and strategise appropriately. We'd actually get to see border skirmishes with this idea. The only problem is that it border struggles would be cost heavy for powers and would likely cause heavy turmoil for powers who are already have a large amount of control systems (high overhead costs) - but such is the cost of war.

Other than that it would reduce the tediousness of fortifying distant systems given the forward base remains active.
 
Hello Commander Raist!

So, I could be wrong, but I think an amount of the flak that the system is getting is down to this mismatch in perception of how important Powerplay is. The truth is, as long as Powerplay's interesting enough for *some* folk, it's working. But that shouldn't mean we don't try to maximize the number of folk who like it, surely?

I'd say some of the flak is because it's such a left turn from what one is looking for in a space sim. People buy HOTAS and VR goggles to fly, not play a weekly board game.
Some more of the flak is because of Frontiers absurd secrecy to do with Powerplay. You told us you were really excited about it and it turns out what gets Frontier excited is very basic 90's MMO style missions repeated ad nauseum, cliché cartoon characters, and time sinks.
And most of the flak I'd guess is because there are so many other areas of the game that affect every player, not just the 17% who like PP, that could use some love since release and instead of working on those you wasted development time on Space Risk.
 
Sandro, just wanted to say that I appreciate the work you're putting into this and being open to suggestions from the community. I think it's a shame that a lot of people are writing off Powerplay already, the concept of having an overarching power system that evolves over time is brilliant, the system just needs work. Anyone who thinks a system of this complexity is going to be perfect from the start is being delusional. So don't get too discouraged, the people who are overly vocal about ditching Powerplay just aren't seeing the big picture.

I've said it before, but the main issue with Powerplay is the cost to benefit ratio. The amount of annoyances that come with siding with a faction (merit decay, interdictions, etc) drastically outweigh the benefits (monetary rewards, variety of missions, faction specific weapons, etc). I personally think the annoyances aren't even that bad...merit decay could use some tweaking and I think interdictions should be reduced significantly in friendly systems...but besides that, there SHOULD be a cost to aligning with someone. You SHOULD feel like a hostile presence in other parts of the galaxy. I think you need to stick to your guns on this, don't give people an easy out. You just need to create better benefits that balance out the "cost" side of the equation. For instance, if you had a loyalty system that rewarded pilots (eg. upgraded modules, ships, paint schemes, or weapons that aren't available elsewhere) for prominently displaying their federation badge in hostile territory, and performing various actions there...then people would be much more willing to tolerate interdictions since they're getting rewarded for it. Putting it simply, if you fixed merit decay and added Powerplay flags, people still wouldn't play Powerplay because there's not much benefit in doing so over just running regular missions or bounty hunting. You need to give people more incentive to participate aside from the RP element.
 
Last edited:
I'd say some of the flak is because it's such a left turn from what one is looking for in a space sim. People buy HOTAS and VR goggles to fly, not play a weekly board game.
Some more of the flak is because of Frontiers absurd secrecy to do with Powerplay. You told us you were really excited about it and it turns out what gets Frontier excited is very basic 90's MMO style missions repeated ad nauseum, cliché cartoon characters, and time sinks.
And most of the flak I'd guess is because there are so many other areas of the game that affect every player, not just the 17% who like PP, that could use some love since release and instead of working on those you wasted development time on Space Risk.

Yeah I agree. It's an outdated concept that lacks imagination.

Perhaps the timing was off? PP might have been nice down the road when far more important sim related functions were properly taken care of.

I'm not saying that the team isn't working on that stuff too, but PP should have been on the back burner instead of the other way around.

Give us freedom fighters and watch the powers fall. As long as you make the playing field even I know there are about 800 cmdrs on this forum who would like to see the powers gone with.
 
(lots of words of wisdom.........removed for brevity)

Agree 100% with what the good Captain has proposed here......hopefully Frontier takes note and implements these. Powerplay would be SO much more engaging as a result.

In regard to the idea of a Powerplay flag......this is somehow a great idea yet we've not seen the transponder idea implemented yet? A PvP flag was not deemed a good idea, yet this is? But then again I guess it's considered just fine to 'flag' players with the hollow icon so they can be specfically targetted by the pew-pew crowd simply because they're a player, so what the heck.......
 
Yeah I agree. It's an outdated concept that lacks imagination.

Perhaps the timing was off? PP might have been nice down the road when far more important sim related functions were properly taken care of.

I'm not saying that the team isn't working on that stuff too, but PP should have been on the back burner instead of the other way around.

Give us freedom fighters and watch the powers fall. As long as you make the playing field even I know there are about 800 cmdrs on this forum who would like to see the powers gone with.

I disagree wholeheartedly...Powerplay adds a dynamic element to a galaxy that is largely static in nature. In theory, it gives people a greater purpose in the game, an opportunity to have an impact on the future shape of the Galaxy, and an avenue to create dynamic story lines. It just wasn't executed as well as it could have been, which is a shame because a lot of people now are completely writing it off instead of working to improve it so that a year down the line its a solid feature that adds a lot of depth to a game that would largely remain static otherwise.

I'd rather them work through a lot of those growing pains now, than wait for planetary landings, thargoids, and space legs to come out and THEN try to figure out how to overlay a complex simulation like this on top of it. If they have a solid foundation in place now, they can use it to tie a lot of those new gameplay elements together when the time comes. It just requires a bit of patience and understanding as they work through the flaws.
 
Last edited:
Hi Sandro,

My opinion.

I tried power play and could not see what was in it for me, a lone freelancer.

I thought the idea of Elite was you were a lone Commander in a large universe. This is not the idea of power play. I don't think I am in anyway alone in thinking this.

Now I think you could fix this very easily. Power play becomes part of the main game but you don't have to align yourself with any faction unless you want to.
If you do align to a faction you get all the benefits that came with it and the disadvantages, like becoming an enemy of all the other faction.

Use the bulletin board to offer missions for any faction to every player. Once you accept the mission, you are working for that faction for the time of the mission. This means that if you are carrying goods or any other mission type, you are a target for other factions. Your standing with each faction would go up and down depending on what you do, just like local factions.

The trick I think is to keep it simple.

ScruffyBee ...........

Ps. Please spend more time on missions. My ideas above would fix a lot of this problem as well.
 
Last edited:
I disagree wholeheartedly...Powerplay adds a dynamic element to a galaxy that is largely static in nature. In theory, it gives people a greater purpose in the game, an opportunity to have an impact on the future shape of the Galaxy, and an avenue to create dynamic story lines. It just wasn't executed as well as it could have been, which is a shame because a lot of people now are completely writing it off instead of working to improve it so that a year down the line its a solid feature that adds a lot of depth to a game that would largely remain static otherwise.

I'd rather them work through a lot of those growing pains now, than wait for planetary landings, thargoids, and space legs to come out and THEN try to figure out how to overlay a complex simulation like this on top of it. If they have a solid foundation in place now, they can use it to tie a lot of those new gameplay elements together when the time comes. It just requires a bit of patience and understanding as they work through the flaws.

Well said that man.
I want to engage in PP and will once my contribution as an explorer becomes meaningful and I have more of a choice who I choose.
"I'm not in it for the glory, I'm in it for the money". No wait, it's the other way around for me.:cool:
 
I also appreciate the thought and work that goes into PP.

However I have to echo some of the words of the critics in this thread: Powerplay is interesting on paper, but not in game. It's not rewarding or gratifying. You guys are trying to fix the reward side of things, but the gratification is never mentioned.

1) You need to make participating in PP gratifying by itself

2) The results of success in PP needs to lead to gratifying consequences

The first point means that the PP activities need to be something other than "shoot X" or "ferry Y", preferably activities you don't get any other way, and the second point means that the consequences of success need to be more than just a bigger bubble on the map. Do stuff with your captital ships. Show them engage the other fleet and squashing them. Give powerplay participants "F... YEAH!" moments when decisive battles are won using the assets secured by their previous hard earned work.
 
So, I could be wrong, but I think an amount of the flak that the system is getting is down to this mismatch in perception of how important Powerplay is. The truth is, as long as Powerplay's interesting enough for *some* folk, it's working. But that shouldn't mean we don't try to maximize the number of folk who like it, surely?

In conclusion, for those folk who dislike Powerplay: that's fine, but there's no need to dislike it purely on the grounds that it is Elite. It's not. It's a bit of Elite, like trading, minor factions, the crime system etc.

We have an ongoing dev cycle for the game, for which I'm eternally grateful to the powers that be for, because it means we get to carry on making things better and better in this game I love. And part of that cycle is this bit, where we get to collect feedback from the folk who play the game, which, traumatic though it can be - I also love! :)

The problem is, is that the PP layer actualy destroys a lot of the work that people have done for months so whilst you might think its fine that "some" people are catered for "most" of us find it has a massively negative impact on the base game. Example include destroyed trade routes, non-sensical interaction with BGS and complete overwriting of months of minor faction influence work.
 
I guess my only question is:
What is the intention of powerplay?

the role playing player groups are dropping out

the solo roleplayers are having a hard time dealing with the credit exploiters messing up expansion

Those of us who took pride in their home systems, like myself, got shrekt when the powers steamrolled the BGS

Mercenaries find the modules useless

People looking for immersion find the massive war and 2d characters unappealing

If you needed a 2d character to justify why you played elite then that's awful. Who was PP made for? Certainly not your backers, as the amount of users here on the forums from those days has gone down .
 
Here is my feedback. I am happy if the FD employees would read this as this are things I have been thinking about for a long time:

1. There should be, no matter the cost a way for people within a power to communicate with eachother. If the game architecture makes this hard to implement, please as a minimum make sum forum sections on this site where people within the same power could discuss strategies. The amount of facebook groups, and sub-reddit groups is evidence that there is a huge need for this. Honestly I cant understand why you would launch Powerplay without it.

2. Maybe some of the rank 5 perks should be permament. I am with Li Yong Rui and there is a 200% exploration data perk at rank 5. However, if I go out exploring for a descent amount of time, I loose the rank and also the perk when I get back.

3. Currently the way I make merits is by sitting in the station with my Type 7. I am waiting 30 minutes so I can add 25 more cargo in my ship (I am rank 4), and when I reach full cargo I deliver them. And this is what powerplay is to me, and you can add the strategy of the meta-game and thats basically what powerplay boils down to.

Powerplay should not restrict the variety on gameplay you do, but increase it. Therefore why cant there be merit-specific missions on the bulletin board where you get 300 merits for going out and exploring something, 500 merits to get increase influence of a minor faction, 200 merits for delivering an amount of some commodity to a contolled system, 100 for killing pirates in a expanding system. Or even do certain things inside enemy territory. And this doenst mean you have to remove the current way of getting merits at all.

4. Stop merit hoarding. Underminers are gathering thousands and thousands of merit vouchers to dump them down 1 minute before the cycle ends. The power that is being undermined have no way to respond to this by fortification in less than 1 minute. My power even lost some systems this way. Merits should be added instantly upon killing ships in another powers space somehow.

5. Why are there so many opposite power ships in my HQ system interdicting me non stop? My HQ system is Lembava and from the moment I reach Lembava and get to Goldstein, I am at average interdicted 3 times under 5 minutes. I do understand why you want them there, but could you tone down the interdiction mayhem a little bit? At least let us get more than 230 credits from killing them, they are infact representing their powers.

In my humble opinion Powerplay has a lot of awesome potential. But it seems like alot of key elements that should be there by default are missing. Like the ones mentioned which seem pretty obvious at least to me and many others I talk to on reddit at a weekly basis.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom