News Powerplay trigger
- Thread starter Zac Antonaci
- Start date
The situations are not the same. While the 5C attacks on Aisling are unfortunate, the possibility of them happening is an inevitable side-effect of the way the game is put together. Powers need the freedom to prepare and take loss-making expansions; otherwise it's not truly player-run, nor would weaponized expansions into enemy space. While the mechanics could be slightly more obvious about what the true CC cost of a system will be, the reality is that "bad" expansions need to be possible.
Now, I agree that Powers having no easy way to ditch a bad system is an unfortunate oversight. That could stand to be improved if they ever overhaul Powerplay. But the current situation is an utter failure of the mechanics of Powerplay to work as they did every previous cycle, and the proposed fixes do not rectify the situation at all. It's not the same situation as Aisling's (and Mahon's, and every other 5c situation) at all.
One of my guys posted this screenshot from the powerplay contact in Patreus' HQ:
http://i.imgur.com/j8F6gyg.png
It seems the game is treating Eotienses as an Expansion! It could be that our HQ-in-turmoil bug and the lack of expansions is somehow related?
http://i.imgur.com/j8F6gyg.png
It seems the game is treating Eotienses as an Expansion! It could be that our HQ-in-turmoil bug and the lack of expansions is somehow related?
You might consider updating your INARA profile before talking condescendingly to everyone who cares about powerplay.
You might consider updating your INARA profile before talking condescendingly to everyone who cares about powerplay.
You make too many assumptions.
You just called a bunch of people "hipster kids" and implied that they can't use their imaginations. Physician, heal thyself.
This is an absolute outrage. The data is there to run the calculations based on the state of the universe at 07:00.
Low IQ troll lol. Keep it coming.
You should also know that a differential backup is a real and viable technology, for both server assets, S3 buckets, and databases. Being unable to restore Powerplay to the state the game was at 07:00 when the servers broadcast the message that they were going down, is utterly unacceptable.
There's a lot of call for this from the most credible voices in PowerPlay.
I think Zac should get the dev's to look at some of their posts directly to address the concerns.
So many players have no idea what is going on in PowerPlay - the drama, the excitement, the partnerships and the betrayals. The bugs.
Someone needs to have the role of connecting the large scale political canvas of PowerPlay with the player scale narrative story of Missions and activity.
And that person should deeply understand what is actually going on. Both Server side and Player side.
They need to understand why System X is important to Power Y. But also have access to the back end to understand Who is actually doing What. not just statistical summaries but direct CMDR level activity.
Zac knows who is who in terms of leadership, but I doubt he has time or resources to be across all the different strategies and their implications.
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And you should also know that while it's a viable technology, maintaining such a stack is itself many full time jobs, and it is entirely possible that instead of live backups, they may actually use the cycle to trigger a backup of powerplay related data. Noone on the outside can possibly know what the actual stack looks like, or what kind of backup routines are actually employed. Just because incremental backups, transaction logs, transaction based data are all things that could exit doesn't mean they do! That kind of stack is a lot of work to create and maintain, and while absolutely necessary for finance and medical fields, 99% of other fields (including games) rarely will employ such a stack. They will not keep excess data just hanging around, they'll keep the most useful pieces of data, and overwrite that with changes. It's much faster and allows for cleaner, quicker retrieval. However, it opens the door to bugs that cause loss of data, which appears to be the case in this instance. They know what PP looked like when it finally cycled, and they can do things with that data, but they can't go back and pick another point in time always. Lots of things about this game lead me to think that it is not transactional data stores, so a snapshot taken at the exact right time of all the right data is the only plausible way, and who knows if that exists or not (the devs might not even know for sure).
Unpopular opinion:
This thread has had, what, 50 active users? Maybe a hundred? Let's say 200 to be generous (is that possible? Not sure). That's only 20 players per power. I don't think anyone here is going to pretend that 20 players make up all of the power play activity for their power in a week. No, it's at least hundreds. Probably closer to the thousand mark give or take per power. That means that the people speaking on here, and the stated "de facto leaders" are only the leaders of the meta-gamers. People who are willing to / inspired to go outside the game. I myself am one of those meta-gamers and I agree with what is being said here is the ideal for me and my faction (the put it on ice stuff) but I represent a minority. What we have here is an extremely vocal minority slinging insults at the devs who may or may not actually speak for the majority of players who were affected. There are probably 5 or more players who aren't speaking up for one reason or another for every one who has chimed in here.
I agree power play is broken. I agree that it would be nice if it was more predictable and matched what we think we know about it / what FDev has said about it. But I also know that the majority of players using power play are not meta-gaming it as a full time hobby, they are playing it as one aspect of their time in the game. (Note that these probably are not rank 5 players I'm referring to, and the vocal people in this thread probably do represent the majority of rank 5 players, as well as people like me who are up and coming rank 4's
I agree power play is broken. I agree that it would be nice if it was more predictable and matched what we think we know about it / what FDev has said about it. But I also know that the majority of players using power play are not meta-gaming it as a full time hobby, they are playing it as one aspect of their time in the game. (Note that these probably are not rank 5 players I'm referring to, and the vocal people in this thread probably do represent the majority of rank 5 players, as well as people like me who are up and coming rank 4's
I wasn't going to chime in here because this was mostly a rant fest with a bit of harassment towards FDev thrown in, but it has hit a point where people are using half-knowledge and assumptions to justify their indignation and harassment, and that is ing me off as a technologist. There is literally nothing about this process that is "unacceptable" or an absolute outrage. If this stuff had happened with an offline game would people have been as vocal? No. This is a game which we get to continue to play for free. Engineers expansion was free and FDev could have done a little joke of an expansion, and people would have complained but moved on because it's not like they were paying anything more for it. We all payed for a game. We payed for access. We are not paying for ongoing development. Noone in this thread is funding the huge amount of money that FDev has just spent resolving this to some extent! For an idea of the money, taking current average salaries in Europe (not narrowing down because I forget where they are) we're looking at about 10 copies of the new bundle in order to fund the developers time that appears to have gone into just this issue!
No one who has spoken on this thread (even Zac) knows the whole story. Not one of us know the technology stack or what exactly the story with snapshots is. For all we know there are no backups or snapshots that tell the story and the devs have been trying to figure it out from what they do know which might not be much more than we do! So let's all take a chill pill and let FDev do the best they can with the situation.
Zac, I agree with the statements about how this solution as proposed does not work wrt. preps. Winters would have expansions this cycle, but will not next cycle. This means that while most of us are simply skipping expansions forward a week, Winters is losing her expansions. This is unfair to everyone. It is unfair to Winters because they would have those expansions this week, but now will not. It is unfair to the rest of us because it means that we are playing a rigged game where player actions aren't the only thing that controls our destiny, and we can't expect a fair game as a result.
I think I came close to pulling a muscle, I was laughing so hard.
Guys, FDev slipped up. It will get fixed. I know people feel that they wasted time and currency on this entire week, and those feelings are accurate. We're going to have to bite the bullet on that one. But one serious mistake in a year isn't so bad.
Well Zac, or anyone still listening for that matter, the poll I started has closed, with an overwhelming majority in favour of freezing Powerplay and fixing this properly, not applying the hugely unpopular "fix" for last cycle's preps that is currently in place. Take a look at the names on the poll, I think you'll find they are a good representation of the Powerplay community, from all sides. When this many rival Commanders agree on something, you'll find they are probably right, as normally they'll argue over the time of day, colour of the sky etc.
Here you go:-
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=258993
Yes - *NUNI*, -Pv-, -Undertaker-, Aldric Anuin, Alex Havoc, Ant_Solo, Apos, AreZee, BaconofDeath, Bad_Player, BaldBeard, Battlehugo, BeBoP, Bigglesof206, big_bad_lynx, Bikky, CaptainKirby, Chef-Jitsu, Chingadero, CMDR Aguirre, Cmdr Alexei Jaeger, CMDR Dean Lee, CMDR John Casey, Cmdr Noast, cmdr Stark, CMDRApex, CMDRKNac, CMDR_Baldr, CoatOSilver, COMMANDER ADAMA, Con, Cori, Cory Prime, Coster, Cross Tobikuma, CRSP, Darkminded, Darth Ender, dciskey, DeJoT, DelayedReality, Delilah, dewil23, Dingus Maximus, dlichterman, DNA-Decay, DoomWZ, Dralamir, DreccoDen, drhay53, Duskhunter, Earth Ultimatum IV., Ekol Tieja, Enef, Esvandiary, Euklides Diophant, ever, FAlava, Fallouttec, fergal, Ferr8, firemane, Flameon985, FleetAdmiralJ, Floyd Bennett, Freebird, freedom4556, freudlund_77, FutronBob, GilliganTX, GoStu, Grungrong, GTuk, H o R 1 Z o N, HappySlayerUK, Heshaya, Hole in Head, Hribek, Hun Solo, icharius, innerdrum, Insinnergy, Irisa Nyira, irongut, Jaggedmallard, Jayridium, JemyM, John Adams, jprelph, Jujumatic, Junchoon, kaloonzu, kelemonopy, khemsa, Kled7, Krek Tavis, Kyle Nix, lapsedpacifist, LeptonFields, lonewolfcoyote, Lord E, Lord of the Isles, Lurion, maddog_uk_69, Malcolm R., MarcusKross, Martin Schou, matthewjcornwall, Memau, Midian27, Miiir, Mike Juliett Kilo, Misaniovent, MrCoffee76, MrT3a, Muffet, Murmeli, nathdixon92, NavyBee, Nick S, NickDupree, Nip Nip, Okeanos Kresh, ollieclark, PanchoAMD, paulreaduk, Pengelly, Phil Rayner, Phil^, Plattfish, playzintraffic, Postal, proteus4994, purestankonia, r4pt012, Rabidbadger69, Raumfahrer Spiff, Rayden_ma, Recster, Remus, richard_uk, Rimsplitter, rjwhite41, Rob At Work, Rubberboots, Rubbernuke, Rudolphus, Ryants, SaliVader, SenatorPerry, Serenus, SHEPR0N, Snax, Space2504, StarLightPL, Starwolfe, Super Ass, Taaelo, Tataboj, TerraSheer, Terrorsidic, texasp8, The Librarian, TheZapper, Thomas Marik, Tiv, tornad0s, TorvalStrategyTeam, tresch, TychoDirge, VampyreGTX, Very Cold, Will of the Warrior, withnail, wolferr, x Sylar321 x, Xargo, xDreadnoughtx, yul7896, Z3n, Zieman
No - Fost, Jdude1, Jendrassik, marnikos, n254x, Olivia Vespera, Privata, sbdags, Silent Dragon81, SlashmanSG
These are your customers, your stakeholders. Without them, you have no game.
Please listen to them, respond to them, respect their considered views on a matter of significant importance for them.
Here you go:-
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=258993
Yes - *NUNI*, -Pv-, -Undertaker-, Aldric Anuin, Alex Havoc, Ant_Solo, Apos, AreZee, BaconofDeath, Bad_Player, BaldBeard, Battlehugo, BeBoP, Bigglesof206, big_bad_lynx, Bikky, CaptainKirby, Chef-Jitsu, Chingadero, CMDR Aguirre, Cmdr Alexei Jaeger, CMDR Dean Lee, CMDR John Casey, Cmdr Noast, cmdr Stark, CMDRApex, CMDRKNac, CMDR_Baldr, CoatOSilver, COMMANDER ADAMA, Con, Cori, Cory Prime, Coster, Cross Tobikuma, CRSP, Darkminded, Darth Ender, dciskey, DeJoT, DelayedReality, Delilah, dewil23, Dingus Maximus, dlichterman, DNA-Decay, DoomWZ, Dralamir, DreccoDen, drhay53, Duskhunter, Earth Ultimatum IV., Ekol Tieja, Enef, Esvandiary, Euklides Diophant, ever, FAlava, Fallouttec, fergal, Ferr8, firemane, Flameon985, FleetAdmiralJ, Floyd Bennett, Freebird, freedom4556, freudlund_77, FutronBob, GilliganTX, GoStu, Grungrong, GTuk, H o R 1 Z o N, HappySlayerUK, Heshaya, Hole in Head, Hribek, Hun Solo, icharius, innerdrum, Insinnergy, Irisa Nyira, irongut, Jaggedmallard, Jayridium, JemyM, John Adams, jprelph, Jujumatic, Junchoon, kaloonzu, kelemonopy, khemsa, Kled7, Krek Tavis, Kyle Nix, lapsedpacifist, LeptonFields, lonewolfcoyote, Lord E, Lord of the Isles, Lurion, maddog_uk_69, Malcolm R., MarcusKross, Martin Schou, matthewjcornwall, Memau, Midian27, Miiir, Mike Juliett Kilo, Misaniovent, MrCoffee76, MrT3a, Muffet, Murmeli, nathdixon92, NavyBee, Nick S, NickDupree, Nip Nip, Okeanos Kresh, ollieclark, PanchoAMD, paulreaduk, Pengelly, Phil Rayner, Phil^, Plattfish, playzintraffic, Postal, proteus4994, purestankonia, r4pt012, Rabidbadger69, Raumfahrer Spiff, Rayden_ma, Recster, Remus, richard_uk, Rimsplitter, rjwhite41, Rob At Work, Rubberboots, Rubbernuke, Rudolphus, Ryants, SaliVader, SenatorPerry, Serenus, SHEPR0N, Snax, Space2504, StarLightPL, Starwolfe, Super Ass, Taaelo, Tataboj, TerraSheer, Terrorsidic, texasp8, The Librarian, TheZapper, Thomas Marik, Tiv, tornad0s, TorvalStrategyTeam, tresch, TychoDirge, VampyreGTX, Very Cold, Will of the Warrior, withnail, wolferr, x Sylar321 x, Xargo, xDreadnoughtx, yul7896, Z3n, Zieman
No - Fost, Jdude1, Jendrassik, marnikos, n254x, Olivia Vespera, Privata, sbdags, Silent Dragon81, SlashmanSG
These are your customers, your stakeholders. Without them, you have no game.
Please listen to them, respond to them, respect their considered views on a matter of significant importance for them.
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This isn't the only serious mistake made in the last year - that is the problem. PowerPlay has been plagued by a multitude of bugs, serious and less serious, and pretty much every time this has happened, FDev has either ignored it completely or gone with bad solutions. This is quite simply the worst of the bunch so far.
You're talking about the whole application state, not PowerPlay only state. Maybe the simple brutal truth is that in (probably) such interconnected system restoring the whole app to previous state is not cost-effective after x hours, also we don't know which % of users is involved in PowerPlay. I think somebody thought "2hrs thats not a big deal" and it went from there, snowballing. Those are only assumptions, of course - without a glance of architecture we don't know jack-s*it. That being said now that I know that they have paused powerplay in the past, I'm suprised they didn't do it at once when there was outrage on the forums clearly visible.
Hm... the possible reason this was neglected MAY have something to do with BIGGER project being released, namely money-making Horizons on XBox
I am sorry, but I don't know what you reviewed and I wish to know what you are going to do about the CC to spend this cycle.
Torvals 3 preparations went from successful to unaffordable. Our "CC to spend this cycle" were 480 last cycle and it is 103 in this. White cost in the Top 10 means there is enough "CC to spend this cycle". As you can see we had 3 such systems in cycle 52. Red means there is not enough "CC to spend this cycle". As you can see none of them can be afforded in cycle 53.
This is basic powerplay.
You have not yet made sure that everyone's work is not lost.
The loss is not moderate.
This is not a fix.
There is a reasonable amount of ignorance I can tolerate from a software developer in turmoil, but you need to address this issue.
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Is your first point that FD should care as much about the opinions (or lack of opinions) of those who play powerplay passingly, and without real concern, as of those for whom powerplay is the primary focus of their Elite game time? I hope not, because that doesn't make any sense.
"this was mostly a rant fest with a bit of harassment towards FDev thrown in"
I strongly disagree. I'm as against the unnecessary vitriol as you are--but it's not at all accurate to say that this thread is "mostly" a rant fest. Powerplay is a game, with rules, and set outcomes that are achieved by operating within those rules. When the rules change, A WEEK of player time is potentially wasted. That's *hundreds of hours* of game time spent working toward objectives that were achieved but not granted. That's not nothing. Bringing that to the devs attention, and objecting when the solution involves a "just play on, and ignore the fact you just wasted your time for a week," isn't "ranting." You're confusing tone for intent. Yes, some people seriously need to cool it, but there are legitimate concerns here, and it's not necessary to pretend their concerns are illegitimate in order to object to the presentation of those concerns.
"This is a game which we get to continue to play for free. Engineers expansion was free and FDev could have done a little joke of an expansion, and people would have complained but moved on because it's not like they were paying anything more for it. We all payed for a game. We payed for access. We are not paying for ongoing development"
Here you've gone right off the rails. We paid for the game, and many of us paid for the expansion--"Engineers" was *not* free. That we pay in large lump sums for a season--a year of development--instead of in monthly installments doesn't make it less true that we're paying for the on-going development. And even if that weren't the case, it wouldn't be relevant. The development is on-going and we're the people who care most about powerplay. There's nothing wrong with giving feedback to the developers when we disagree with the decisions they make regarding 'fixing' bugs in the feature, when those bugs impact us as players. No developer worth their salt ignores the opinions of their most dedicated players--FD sure doesn't.
I agree with your intentions here--again, some of the vitriol in the thread has been ridiculous and unacceptable. But that the tone, not the content. There's no need to dismiss the content in order to object to the tone. My 2 cents.
My thoughts exactly, being a dev myself I know what it feels like having outraged users on the other end, and Support trying to calm them down, while desperately seeking help from us. They are not our enemy for god's sake... Couple that with the pressure of today's Horizons for XBox release (which will be making real money, contrary to PP which I don't think was in season two yearplan at all) and you got a recipe for community disaster brewing which probably could be avoided alltogether if it happened on another day.
From another thread, jprelph was kind enough to provide an interesting presentation:
Didn't have time to watch all of it but from a quick glance its a bunch of servers synchronized via a shared layer plus a background simulator for crunching the numbers, all of this using different technologies and storages. While AWS may provide auto backups of the infrastructure, what it does not provide is a backup of specific parts of the game, such as powerplay, unless Frontier designed it so.
Like said, they screwed it up big time, but those things do happen, and sometimes cannot be detected beforehand.
peace,
StarLightPL
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