Puma Clipper What if!

[Noobilite]

Puma Clipper - Elite Wiki

wiki.alioth.net

Hopefully I'm not annoying any mods with another ship thread. But I think I'm narrowing how to balance them. Short of the combat side of things. Excuse my ship mess.

This will be based on my current panther clipper idea but based on 8 shields max and 700 hull mass. the panther clipper needs to be moved up to a higher hull mass and class 7 fsd. This ship will only have 8 class cargo like the cutter. I will step on the Imperial cutters toes. Not sure how to make that excusable. Maybe it's worse at combat or hidden behind a wall of grind or something.

It's based on having as close to the original cargo. Its will probably get 576 cargo with a 4 shield, 5GFSB, 6A fuel scoop, and some utility like super cruise and docking assist. It will cost a lot more to compensate!

Here is an alternative smaller and cheaper puma clipper:

Cost: 253,000,000
Boost: 19MJ
Base hull Weight: 700t
Max Cargo: 692 (576 equipped)
Fuel tank: 0.7

Puma Clipper Explorer
Puma Clipper Cargo
Puma Clipper Combat


Internals:
Armor: 1
PP: 8
Engines: 6
FSD: 7
Life Support: 6
PD: 8
Sensors: 4
Fuel: 7

Optional internals: (692)

8
7
7
6
5
5
4
4
3
3
3 reserve
1
1

Hardpoints:
L
L
L
L

or: (Same as Panther Clipper)
H or XL (Turrted 4A's. Possibly same as a capital ship.)
M
M
M
S
S
S
S
S
S

 

[MK Regular]

You keep posting threads about adding ships from FE2 and FFE to ED, but you are consistently trying to compare apples to oranges. While you have elaborated more on several balancing aspects of the new versions of the ships you are proposing, you continue to propose the ships without taking into account the massive differences between ship outfitting in FE2/FFE and ED (namely, the "total capacity" of FE2/FFE and what it was required for).

It's based on having as close to the original 825 cargo.

While the Puma had a total capacity of 825 tons, under no circumstances could it actually use all 825 tons for cargo in FE2 or FFE. Let me go find the stats card for the Puma from the FFE Manual....

Note that the stat card says "drive + 575t" right next to the listed value of 825t of capacity. As I have said before, in FE2 and FFE the listed cargo capacity was needed to mount items that are now considered to be essential equipment in ED, notably the jump drive (plus around 10 tons of sensor equipment and a few extra things that now come standard). In the case of the Puma, the jump drive (a class 6 in this case) would take up 250 tons of the available 825 tons of total capacity, meaning that a player would only be able to carry 575 tons of equipment and cargo once they have mounted the jump drive. Note that this figure does not include sensor equipment (~10 tons) fuel for the jump drive (up to 36 tons per jump), or any weapons systems.

As such, a player should not expect their Puma in FE2 or FFE to be able to haul more than ~520 tons of cargo, and even then the ship would be an absolute deathtrap when it would get mobbed by pirates in the destination system (it would not have weapons or shields). You compare the cargo capacity of the Puma to the Type 9 and Imperial Clipper, but in reality the Puma's cargo capacity would be a lot closer to the Anaconda or Beluga.

I'll give you points for persistence with these topics, but could you please do a little bit more research before posting them?

 

[Noobilite]

I would but I haven't found info besides what you're displaying. And I haven't found it on the equipment weights and whatnot.

 

[MK Regular]

I would but I haven't found info besides what you're displaying. And I haven't found it on the equipment weights and whatnot.

This website has an English copy of the manual that you can view and/or download:

http://www.wischik.com/lu/senses/ffemanual.pdf

The descriptions for all of the equipment (including weights) starts on page 174 of the manual (page 188 of the PDF).

A list of all of the jump drives can be found on page 184 of the manual (page 198 of the PDF).

A list of all of the hardpoint weapons can be found on page 191 of the manual (page 205 of the PDF).

 

[Brrokk]

Puma Clipper - Elite Wiki

wiki.alioth.net

Hopefully I'm not annoying any mods with another ship thread. But I think I'm narrowing how to balance them. Short of the combat side of things. Excuse my ship mess.

This will be based on my current panther clipper idea but based on 8 shields max and 700 hull mass. the panther clipper needs to be moved up to a higher hull mass and class 7 fsd. This ship will only have 8 class cargo like the cutter. I will step on the Imperial cutters toes. Not sure how to make that excusable. Maybe it's worse at combat or hidden behind a wall of grind or something.

It's based on having as close to the original 825 cargo. Its will probably get 826 cargo with a 4 shield, 5GFSB, 6A fuel scoop, and some utility like super cruise and docking assist. It will cost a lot more to compensate!

Cost: 420 million
Boost: 19MJ
Base hull Weight: 700t
Max Cargo: 942
Fuel tank: 0.66?

Puma Clipper Explorer
Puma Clipper Cargo
Puma Clipper Combat

Internals:
Armor: 1
PP: 7
Engines: 6
FSD: 7
Life Support: 5
PD: 8
Sensors: 5
Fuel: 6

Optional internals: (942)

8
8
7
7
6
5
5
4
4
3
1
1
1

Hardpoints:
L
L
L
L

Take the rest of my credits!

 

[Noobilite]

Here is an alternative smaller and cheaper puma clipper:

Cost: 253,000,000
Boost: 19MJ
Base hull Weight: 700t
Max Cargo: 692 (576 equipped)
Fuel tank: 0.7

Puma Clipper Explorer
Puma Clipper Cargo
Puma Clipper Combat

Internals:
Armor: 1
PP: 8
Engines: 6
FSD: 7
Life Support: 6
PD: 8
Sensors: 4
Fuel: 7

Optional internals: (692)

8
7
7
6
5
5
4
4
3
3
3 reserve
1
1

Hardpoints:
L
L
L
L

or: (Same as Panther Clipper)
H or XL (Turrted 4A's. Possibly same as a capital ship.)
M
M
M
S
S
S
S
S
S

 

[MK Regular]

I see your modified proposal, and I give you my own:

Core Internals

• Size 7 Power Plant
• Size 7 Thrusters
• Size 6 FSD
• Size 5 Life Support
• Size 6 Power Distributor
• Size 5 Sensors
• Size 6 Fuel Tank

Optional Internals

• 3 Size 7 compartments
• 3 Size 6 compartments
• 1 Size 4 compartment
• 2 Size 3 compartments
• 1 Size 1 compartment
• 2 Size 4 military compartments

Hardpoints and Utility Mounts

• 2 large hardpoints
• 4 medium hardpoints
• 6 utility mounts

Other Specs

• 2 multicrew seats
• Requires a large landing pad
• Can mount a fighter bay
• Hull mass of 1000T
• Hull hardness of 60
• Base speed of 140 m/s with base boost of 220 m/s
• Base roll, pitch and yaw of 50 deg/s, 25 deg/s, and 7.5 deg/s respectively
• Base hull strength of 360
• Base shield strength of 300MJ
• Price of about 85M CR

I have not yet determined what the mass lock, boost capacity, and reserve fuel tank should be.

https://is.gd/T7qZQg - Armed Trader
https://is.gd/CTzbJv - Unarmed Trader

Of note is the (relatively) undersized power plant and power distributor which serve to limit the ship in the weapons it can mount and use effectively.

I could not get some stats (namely the speed, maneuvering, and hull hardness) correct due to the limitations of EDSY. Note that the 5A hatch breaker represents the extra 100 tons of hull mass.

My main concern with this design is how it compares favorably to the Type 10 in many respects. It may be necessary to increase the ship's price while decreasing the ship's maneuverability and protection.

 

[Noobilite]

If comparing jump ranges from the anaconda to the puma how would you go about this. I can't find a good way.

The current in game anaconda only has a class 6 FSD. If I made it so that was the equivilent of the current would that make sense or no? It would give larger jump ranges. Which is why I was giving it a higher price. I could then start from an empty anaconda/max empty cargo range or full empty..

Anaconda empty cargo max

That means the empty cargo weight is 82.81/13.5 = 6.13407407407407407407 per ly jump range for large ships

Puma is 14.7*6.13407407407407407407=90.17088888888888888883

Puma would need to be around 466 or less weight to get this. If I do:

82.81/18.37= 4.50789330430048992923
14.7*4.50789330430048992923= 66.26603157321720195968

I'm assuming this is more reasonable. But does it have any value as a ship with 253millino in cost. I wonder if agility and weapons would make up for it.

Puma Clipper

I would give it 144/200 speed/boost. Which is about 240/333 Maybe if I doubled it to 288/400! 8) (480/666) That would give this thing some real use! Or 2.5x = 216/300 would make it almost like the cutter in speed. (360/500)

And probably 400/400 shield/hull.
Top Speed: 216
Boost Speed: 300
Minimum Thrust: 35%

Hardpoints:
H or XL (Turrted 4A's. Possibly same as a capital ship.)
M
M
M
S
S
S
S
S
S

This would be to give it the ability to mine with a Class 8 PD with 6 mining lances! Does that justify it's cost?

I keep forgetting if it has 128 fuel that is a potential selling point. Or Should I give it 256 Fuel?! 8D Never having to refuel is a good selling point.

Best Proposal: Puma Clipper

The Panther Clipper of the medium landing pad!!

Stats:
Cost: 253,000,000
Boost: 19MJ
Base hull Weight: 700t
Max Cargo: 692 (576 equipped)
Fuel tank: 0.7
Base Shield: 280
Base Hull: 420
Top Speed: 216
Boost Speed: 300
Minimum Thrust: 35%
Pitch: 15
Yaw: 8
Roll: 35
Minimum Pitch: 12
Pad Size: M or L
Crew: 3
SLF Bay: yes

Internals:
Armor: 1
PP: 8
Engines: 6
FSD: 7
Life Support: 5 or 6
PD: 7 or 8
Sensors: 4
Fuel: 8

Optional internals: (692/576)

8
7
7
6
5
5
4
4
3
3
3 reserve
1
1

Or: (642/576)
8
7
6
6
6
5
4
4
1

Reserve:
4

Assuming: 32+16+16+2


Hardpoints: (remove a large if there can only be 9 max hardpoints)
L
L
L
L
S
S
S
S
S
S

Or:
L
L
L
S
S
S
S

Utility: 6

Would this be a large or medium pad. If it's large then it should be 8 utility. If medium then it should be 6 utility. Do small stations even come with enough cargo to use this? Not sure on limits for those.

 

[MK Regular]

If comparing jump ranges from the anaconda to the puma how would you go about this. I can't find a good way.

The current in game anaconda only has a class 6 FSD. If I made it so that was the equivilent of the current would that make sense or no? It would give larger jump ranges. Which is why I was giving it a higher price. I could then start from an empty anaconda/max empty cargo range or full empty..

Anaconda empty cargo max

That means the empty cargo weight is 82.81/13.5 = 6.13407407407407407407 per ly jump range for large ships

Puma is 14.7*6.13407407407407407407=90.17088888888888888883

Puma would need to be around 466 or less weight to get this. If I do:

82.81/18.37= 4.50789330430048992923
14.7*4.50789330430048992923= 66.26603157321720195968

I'm assuming this is more reasonable. But does it have any value as a ship with 253millino in cost. I wonder if agility and weapons would make up for it.

Are you still trying to scale the Puma's jump range? I'm just going to point out that trying scale ships' jump ranges from previous games is kinda pointless. From post #25 of your Panther Clipper XL! thread:

Given how wildly ship jump ranges have changed from FFE to ED, it's probably better to consider the range of jump ranges ships that are imported from FFE could have. Ships will not be fitted with an FSD booster for the sake of this comparison (it can be added later).

		Ship Name	Adder	Anaconda	Asp X	Cobra III	Eagle (Mk II)	Python	Sidewinder	Average
		FFE Jump range	49.09	18.37	32.00	27.00	96.42	21.60	36.36
		ED Jump Range	54.09	73.81	62.41	46.33	40.97	50.94	40.01
		Factor	1.102	4.018	1.950	1.716	0.425	2.358	1.100	1.810
Ship Name	FFE Jump Range	ED Jump Range
Puma	14.70		16.20	59.06	28.67	25.23	6.25	34.66	16.17	26.61
Panther Clipper	8.28		9.12	33.27	16.15	14.21	3.52	19.52	9.11	14.99
Turner	11.55		12.73	46.41	22.52	19.82	4.91	27.23	12.71	20.91
Mantis	16.06		17.70	64.53	31.32	27.56	6.83	37.87	17.67	29.07
Griffin	6.06		6.68	24.35	11.82	10.40	2.58	14.29	6.67	10.97
Boa	16.20		17.85	65.09	31.59	27.80	6.89	38.20	17.82	29.32

Given how wildly these values differ from each other based on what ship you use as a starting point (the Eagle and Anaconda differ by a factor of 9.45), I think it's fair to say that estimating the jump ranges of ships from FE2/FFE in ED by comparing them to ships that exist in both games is not a good method for determining the jump ranges of ships to be added to ED.
....

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, estimating the jump ranges of ships from FE2/FFE in ED by comparing them to ships that exist in both games is not a good method for determining the jump ranges of new ships. You're better off determining how far the ship should be able to jump by considering what would be capable of doing in ED rather than what it was capable of doing in other games.

Also on a side note, the Anaconda's jump range is actually a mistake that was made by FDev back when the game was in development. It was not supposed to be capable of jumping as far as it can, but then it made it to release and FDev haven't been able to fix for fear of stranding players by reducing the ship's jump range in remote systems or having the ship exceed the maximum mass of the thrusters players have equipped.

Puma Clipper

I would give it 144/200 speed/boost. Which is about 240/333 Maybe if I doubled it to 288/400! 8) (480/666) That would give this thing some real use! Or 2.5x = 216/300 would make it almost like the cutter in speed. (360/500)

Considering that you are looking at giving the Puma favourable capacity, jump range, firepower, and hull strength when compared to the Corvette, the Puma doesn't really need to have Cutter-like speed as well (even if it costs nearly 100M CR more).

And probably 400/400 shield/hull.
Top Speed: 216
Boost Speed: 300
Minimum Thrust: 35%

Hardpoints:
H or XL (Turrted 4A's. Possibly same as a capital ship.)
M
M
M
S
S
S
S
S
S

This would be to give it the ability to mine with a Class 8 PD with 6 mining lances! Does that justify it's cost?

Mining lances are kinda meh, iirc a medium mining laser mines as fast as 2 mining lances while having less distro draw

I keep forgetting if it has 128 fuel that is a potential selling point. Or Should I give it 256 Fuel?! 8D Never having to refuel is a good selling point.

A size 6 fuel tank is pretty good for a size 7 FSD (it gives 5 max range jumps), and a size 7 fuel tank is overkill (10 max range jumps). A size 8 fuel tank for a size 7 FSD on a trade ship is needlessly excessive when you consider that you would be able to fly from one edge of the bubble to the other and most of the way back on a single size 7 fuel tank.

Best Proposal: Puma Clipper

The Panther Clipper of the medium landing pad!!

Stats:
Cost: 253,000,000
Boost: 19MJ
Base hull Weight: 700t
Max Cargo: 692 (576 equipped)
Fuel tank: 0.7
Base Shield: 280
Base Hull: 420
Top Speed: 216
Boost Speed: 300
Minimum Thrust: 35%
Pitch: 15
Yaw: 8
Roll: 35
Minimum Pitch: 12
Pad Size: M
Crew: 2
SLF Bay: yes

Internals:
Armor: 1
PP: 8
Engines: 6
FSD: 7
Life Support: 6
PD: 8
Sensors: 4
Fuel: 8

Optional internals: (692)

8
7
7
6
5
5
4
4
3
3
3 reserve
1
1

Hardpoints: (remove a large if there can only be 9 max hardpoints)
L
L
L
L
S
S
S
S
S
S

Utility: 6

Would this be a large or medium pad. If it's large then it should be 8 utility. If medium then it should be 6 utility. Do small stations even come with enough cargo to use this? Not sure on limits for those.

This should not be a medium pad ship. You have internal modules that are reminiscent of something like a conda, there is no way all of it would fit into a medium pad ship.

 

[Noobilite]

The fuel might make it useful for this though:

Puma Clipper Passenger Long range!

It would then have the belugas jump range with a very long range fuel capacity for those medium 1-7k ranged passenger missions. Might be interesting. It woud be less hassle to not have to refuel at every star and be able to take very long neutron jump sequences.

As for speed, I can always give it 140/200 or 140/210.

 

[RamirezKurita]

In FFE the Puma was very comparable to the Anaconda overall, rather than it being noticeably larger or smaller than it. With that in mind, it should probably have in the region of 500-550 tonnes of shielded cargo capacity. Similarly, it shouldn't have a greater FSD size, which would probably result in it having a lower jump range, perhaps in the region of 23-24 ly just from engineering the FSD which would put its jump range around the same as the Cutter. Being in the same category as the Anaconda would probably also see its price point around the 150 million credits for the hull and other core modules being similar.

The real issue I see here is how to differentiate it from other similar ships without it overpowering them. Ideally, considering how there's an entire set of cat-named ships, whatever gimmick (or gimmicks, the major manufacturers all have multiple different things to differentiate them from their competitors/rivals/enemies) it ends up with should also be quite applicable to a whole manufacturer's line of ships. A set of near-universally applicable advantages and disadvantages would need to be considered for such a line of ships, that could then be applied to give all of them their own unique flavour.

 

[Noobilite]

Puma Clipper Max Jump <- 76.73ly

Optional Internals: (642/576)
8
7
6
6
6
5
4
4
1

Assuming equipment: 32+16+16+2 (5gfsb, 4dshield, SCA, ADC)

Reserve:
4

Hardpoints:
L
L
L
S
S
S
S

Or:
L
L
L
L

How about this to get it closer to medium ship status?

Frontier: First Encounters

Frontier: First Encounters is a space trading and combat simulator video game for the IBM PC, released on April 16, 1995. It's the sequel to Frontier: Elite II, the prequel of Elite Dangerous and the third game in the Elite series. The game was created by David Braben's company, Frontier...

elite-dangerous.fandom.com

This chart shows it in the size range of the Imperial courier which is a small ship in ED. And the asp explorer which is a medium ship. So, I don't think size wise medium is a problem. I think it's a matter of getting the number of slots and whatnot down to the normal levels. The cargo space could be jusftified as efficient and the hull mass as a very dense material but fairly small as far as m3 goes. Maybe for structural strength. It's the ship you take to hutton orbital for those sweet sweet trade deals. And mug runs!

If this is medium it could visit smaller stations in remote areas and do passenger mission in mass. And it can also use the fuel at 256 to do long ranged passenger missions with minimal refueling and max neutron star usage. Not sure on the specifics needed for that though.

Puma Clipper Passenger (642/576)