PVP/Crime Consequences required levels (Answers from PVE players please.)

Yes, and people like you will never come out of Solo no matter what gets done, you don't want multiplayer, which is exactly why Solo exists and that's why some use it, like yourself, simply because they don't want multiplayer. Others go to Solo/Group to avoid other players out of fear, pure and simple, BlueLumen makes that ever so clear, check the posting history. Nothing will entice them to Open either in most cases, the only possible thing that MIGHT do it would be a total lack of costs for death, ships and all cargos replaced at no cost, and even THAT won't entice most of them, they don't want any violence in their space combat game, so they won't face other players. Yeah, I know...

Maj asked, some people give very good answers, but the fact is, most of the folks in Solo/Group won't come out of that if it means they can get attacked, simple as that. And pirates don't need other players to be pirates, Maj also knows that. I'm not sure exactly why he started this, I have my own idea on that, and knowing Maj...well...the guy does make me laugh when he does this stuff, he definitely knows how to work a room.

I completely agree, I just always feel the need to give my two cents when the finger is pointed at Solo being for cowards and pacifists. I would eagerly welcome far more potent AI, as I enjoy RES combat very much and would enjoy a smarter foe. I guess I really should give Arena a shot :)
 
Yes, and people like you will never come out of Solo no matter what gets done, you don't want multiplayer, which is exactly why Solo exists and that's why some use it, like yourself, simply because they don't want multiplayer. Others go to Solo/Group to avoid other players out of fear, pure and simple, BlueLumen makes that ever so clear, check the posting history. Nothing will entice them to Open either in most cases, the only possible thing that MIGHT do it would be a total lack of costs for death, ships and all cargos replaced at no cost, and even THAT won't entice most of them, they don't want any violence in their space combat game, so they won't face other players. Yeah, I know...

Maj asked, some people give very good answers, but the fact is, most of the folks in Solo/Group won't come out of that if it means they can get attacked, simple as that. And pirates don't need other players to be pirates, Maj also knows that. I'm not sure exactly why he started this, I have my own idea on that, and knowing Maj...well...the guy does make me laugh when he does this stuff, he definitely knows how to work a room.

#OPTIONALPVPINOPEN
Don't use me as a target to justify your misunderstanding or incompetence, do not use me to prove your point which is little more than lack of understanding. You guys want more people in Open, make PvP 100% optional in ALL aspects of the game and a reason to work together, until then, Open will remain nothing more than a ghost town of starved, crazed, murderous players that only want to kill other players. There are many other games out there to do just what you guys want, why make ED a bad game because a small handful want PvP while the rest of the community simply doesn't, go play Star Citizen and your hunger for ruining other peoples game play experience will be righteously filled. You can't fix what's wrong with open by making more "laws", no amount of punishment for crimes against players will bring people to open, only 100% optional PvP will. Boy oh boy, the issues with single player games, you people are really barking up the wrong tree, go play EVE Online, or is that a bit too much for you to handle? You want the easy targets in ED? Can't handle a real PvP challenge? But instead you come to my single player game and demand I be thrown into Open so I can be your prey, then complain when people want justification for your crimes, while you just want to shoot. This game isn't for you, go somewhere else.
 
they don't want any violence in their space combat game, so they won't face other players.

You're STILL making that classic error that most PvPers make.... thinking this is a "space combat game" or a PvP game. It's not. It never was. Elite's been around since the 1980's and it was NEVER a "space combat game". It's a space TRAVEL game in which combat is ONE of the OPTIONAL activities. As long as you keep looking at it as a "space combat game" you're never going to understand why it's such a BAD "space combat game".
 
...
The problem with hiding players, by transponder or otherwise, is that the game's architecture makes it trivially easy to tell when there's another computer talking to yours. As others have pointed out elsewhere, even the primitive bandwidth monitor built into the game itself can be used as an early warning system even before the hollow square appears on the scanner, and it doesn't take a networking genius to set up a second machine to monitor those connections. Hell, a few lines of your favourite programming language and you could have a monitor program look for connections, determine IPs, and cross-reference those IPs with a manually updated database of known players. A bit of extra code to share those data with friends' copies of the client and parse log files for locations and you could have an automated detection system. "CMDR {xxxx} detected in {system} by CMDR {yyyy}."
...

Not a bad idea actually. It won't be 100% reliable because of dynamic IP addressing and NAT though. I hope that FDev implements some advanced "wanted player of interest" tracking before anyone comes up with such a tool. That would in turn help bounty hunters chase the bad guys. Fun for both sides.

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Fines simply won't work, because credits are too easy to come by in this game. Make the fines bigger and the bad guys will just grind for more credits. Make the fines so large that the grind becomes insurmountable and it will just encourage the bad guys to exploit loopholes to force those fines onto the innocent. If they can't play the game, they'll play the metagame.
...

Not sure if that's true. Speed fines work in general although there are some exploits, true. Further, if fines were calculated as an increasing percentage of assets (double the percentage with each new offence, hefty minimum fine) then it becomes unsustainable very quickly because potential rewards from grind do not equally grow exponentially.
 
#OPTIONALPVPINOPEN
Don't use me as a target to justify your misunderstanding or incompetence, do not use me to prove your point which is little more than lack of understanding. You guys want more people in Open, make PvP 100% optional in ALL aspects of the game and a reason to work together, until then, Open will remain nothing more than a ghost town of starved, crazed, murderous players that only want to kill other players. There are many other games out there to do just what you guys want, why make ED a bad game because a small handful want PvP while the rest of the community simply doesn't, go play Star Citizen and your hunger for ruining other peoples game play experience will be righteously filled. You can't fix what's wrong with open by making more "laws", no amount of punishment for crimes against players will bring people to open, only 100% optional PvP will. Boy oh boy, the issues with single player games, you people are really barking up the wrong tree, go play EVE Online, or is that a bit too much for you to handle? You want the easy targets in ED? Can't handle a real PvP challenge? But instead you come to my single player game and demand I be thrown into Open so I can be your prey, then complain when people want justification for your crimes, while you just want to shoot. This game isn't for you, go somewhere else.

Psst, I'm not one of those PvPers you have such a hate on for, I already pointed that out, and I don't give a rat's furry rear hindquarters where anyone plays the game. I play in Open because I want some social interaction in my online multiplayer game, simple as that. I want PvP, I play my PvP games like MechWarrior Online, Battlefield, Call of Duty, Planetside 2 and so on, actual PvP games from the ground up. Elite: Dangerous is not a PvP game, I've said that repeatedly about it, it's a space combat game where PvP is not prohibited.

And this is NOT a single player game, it wasn't offered as a single player, it's not marketed as a single player game, you really need to find out what kind of game you bought, not me. I bought the online multiplayer game David Braben has been offering for 4 years now, the one advertised on the original KS offer, as it's been that since day 1.

You're STILL making that classic error that most PvPers make.... thinking this is a "space combat game" or a PvP game. It's not. It never was. Elite's been around since the 1980's and it was NEVER a "space combat game". It's a space TRAVEL game in which combat is ONE of the OPTIONAL activities. As long as you keep looking at it as a "space combat game" you're never going to understand why it's such a BAD "space combat game".

I played the original Elite when it was brand new while I was in college, did you? It's ALWAYS been a space combat game, that's never changed in any of it's iterations. THIS version makes it an online multiplayer space combat game where PvP isn't prohibited. You got ONE thing right, it's not a PvP game, I've said that many many times on these forums, it's a game where PvP isn't prohibited, that's the extent of it's PvP design, which is why the PvP is so horribly imbalanced, even in CQC, it's not designed for PvP, not balanced for it, doesn't cater to it at all, it simply doesn't prohibit it in any mode.

I'm the guy who keeps pointing out that pirates do NOT need other players to be pirates, remember? I'm not the PvP advocate here, you people are SO worked up at the very thought of PvP that you blindly lash out at anyone who doesn't kowtow to your point of view.

You know the problem with Open...you people, you've filled it so full of your demons that you have no clue what it's actually like. And that's fine, please, stay in Solo, your mindsets aren't needed in any social areas at all, so stay where you are, by all means.
 
Not a bad idea actually. It won't be 100% reliable because of dynamic IP addressing and NAT though. I hope that FDev implements some advanced "wanted player of interest" tracking before anyone comes up with such a tool. That would in turn help bounty hunters chase the bad guys. Fun for both sides.



Not sure if that's true. Speed fines work in general although there are some exploits, true. Further, if fines were calculated as an increasing percentage of assets (double the percentage with each new offence, hefty minimum fine) then it becomes unsustainable very quickly because potential rewards from grind do not equally grow exponentially.

Hitting repeat offenders would be a good idea. But I'm not impressed by anything motivated by credits. Crime needs more consequence that doesn't revolve around your wallet. Whoever came up with the idea of pirate specific hideouts and channels that let you act outside of society is awesome....although honestly, who of these people would let a wanton murderer into their dens?
 
And this is NOT a single player game, it wasn't offered as a single player, it's not marketed as a single player game

Uh yes, yes it most certainly is. A game that is not single player is a game like WoW, a game that has a very large portion of activities that cannot be completed by a single person, hence 25 man raids, or 40vs40 PvP battles. There is zero aspect of ED which requires other players, it is most certainly a single player game, I have NEVER needed a single other person to assist me in ANY activity in this game. Elite: Dangerous IS a single player game. You play Open for the social aspect? I guess that's why you spend so much time on the forums, or perhaps there is no one there for you to be social with.
 
I played the original Elite when it was brand new while I was in college, did you? It's ALWAYS been a space combat game, that's never changed in any of it's iterations.

Uhhh no. Trading's always been a part... ONE part... but read ANY description of the original game. Go read it's wiki page... or the back of the box. It's always actually been described as a space trading game. "The seminal space trading game" in fact. Even Braben made the point quite clear in many interviews for the devlopment of ED that combat was only ONE part of it. I know you don't like hearing it but it was NEVER intended or designed as a pewpew fest... which is WHY it makes such an extraordinarilly bad PvP game... coz it AINT one!

you people are SO worked up at the very thought of PvP that you blindly lash out at anyone who doesn't kowtow to your point of view.

You know the problem with Open...you people, you've filled it so full of your demons that you have no clue what it's actually like. And that's fine, please, stay in Solo, your mindsets aren't needed in any social areas at all, so stay where you are, by all means.

Wow, getting your hate on real good there... you might want to take a.chill pill and relax some before you do yourself an injury. It's ok, we're ALLOWED to disagree with you.
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
And this is NOT a single player game, it wasn't offered as a single player, it's not marketed as a single player game, you really need to find out what kind of game you bought, not me. I bought the online multiplayer game David Braben has been offering for 4 years now, the one advertised on the original KS offer, as it's been that since day 1.

You might want to check the Kickstarter - it states there (and here in the FAQ thread) that the game would be able to be played single-player.

Also, it is advertised on Steam right now as Single Player (as well as Multi-Player, Co-Op, MMO).
 
Uh yes, yes it most certainly is. A game that is not single player is a game like WoW, a game that has a very large portion of activities that cannot be completed by a single person, hence 25 man raids, or 40vs40 PvP battles. There is zero aspect of ED which requires other players, it is most certainly a single player game, I have NEVER needed a single other person to assist me in ANY activity in this game. Elite: Dangerous IS a single player game. You play Open for the social aspect? I guess that's why you spend so much time on the forums, or perhaps there is no one there for you to be social with.

The sky is a lovely shade of what where you live? This IS an online multiplayer game, it's been stated to be so by David Braben and FD et al, so I'm pretty sure you not understanding that doesn't change it one bit. Little secret for ya, you can do almost all of WoW solo too, raids are actually designed for groups to do them, otherwise, yeah, it's a single player game you can play with others, just like Elite: Dangerous, LotRO, DDO, AoC, DAoC, etc, etc, etc, that's how most MMOs actually work, since you don't seem to be aware of that fact. Hell, I've solo'd raids in more than a few MMOs that supposedly required 12+ people do to do them, not a special thing, lots of people do it, turns out its actually pretty easy a lot of the time.

And I'm on the forums because I'm not playing the game, doing laundry, some work I need to get done for monday, and chatting with my daughter, son in law and grandkids off and on as we all go about doing what we're doing. It's called 'life, having one', google it. And when I do get into the game, I'll still have time to be here because I'm thousands of light years out in the Black and heading for Beagle Point and points beyond, I'll be some months on that trip, not my first, nor my last, and running into other players out here is, well, I'm not in the DWE as I don't have that kind of time, so I'm more likely to run into an actual Alien Lifeform than another human being out here. I do chat with the folks on my friends list occasionally, but since we're rather spread out, most of them in Solo not Open, well, it's just chat.

Once again, I'm not a PvP Advocate nor do I push for Open as the optimal mode, I pointed out repeatedly now that pirates don't need players to be pirates, and that there is no enticing people who don't want social interaction into having it, since the game allows that to be ignored totally while playing an online multiplayer game. Brilliant move actually that, you get all the anti-social players doing multiplayer without them realizing it, like you, and being directly impacted by other players without them realizing it all the time.

Once again, this IS an online multiplayer game, you ARE always playing with other people, you just can't see them because you are in Solo. YOU need to look into the game YOU bought, you don't seem to know a thing about it.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

You might want to check the Kickstarter - it states there (and here in the FAQ thread) that the game would be able to be played single-player.

Also, it is advertised on Steam right now as Single Player (as well as Multi-Player, Co-Op, MMO).


That FAQ needs to be updated, still refers to the offline mode that was offered shortly before the KS was over and then dropped. And you can play the game without anyone else, that was offered from the start and still exist, but you are still online in a multiplayer game and other people's actions directly affect your game even though you don't see those other people. Semantics don't work when the game is clearly advertised as and works as an online multiplayer game.

And you'll see that most games offered on Steam are listed as Single Player despite being online multiplayer games only, that's a Steam thing, nothing else. FD's advertisements are clear, this is an online multiplayer game, thinking that what the company says the game is, is what the game is.
 
The risk of destruction should always exist in this game, there should never be any guaruntees that you wont be killed. FDs biggest mistake was making the AI of NPCs so poor that solo became easy mode by default, encouraging non-combat players to flock to it to offset risk.
Hopefully FD's AI improvements will make the risk equal in solo, groups and open, so this particular argument won't exist anymore. Mode choice shouldn't be about risk-evasion.

So in other words, there's only downsides and no upsides for me to play a trader in open. Since combat is to be expected, the only rational choice if I want to play in open is to do so in a warship with SCBs and hull reinforcements instead of cargo racks. How exactly does this benefit pirates?
 
This whole "PEOPLE DON'T WANT PVP" thing, tarring all of us traders with the same bush is getting old. I DO sometimes want (well, at least am open to) PvP. I fry bounties while taking a break from my trade runs all the time. I've even managed to fry a couple of player pirates and in all those encounters we parted on good terms whichever of us won or lost the fight. In about 50% of them neither of us exploded, the other content to take the "win" without needing the kaboom to put an exclamation point on it.

Sure, I'm "progressing" slower in credits and trade rank because of it - but there aint no end-game in Elite so why does progress rate matter?

What I'm not open to, pretty much ever, is idiots trying to kill me or get me killed so they can laugh about it without a valid in-game reason to do so.

Fix those players, FD, and I'll probably come back to being the exclusively open player I used to be rather than the occasional open player I am now, only picking that mode when I'm in a good enough mood to cope with the asses.

I'm trying to play the game, not min-max my way to some supposedly exalted status so I can crow about it. And I'm having fun doing so.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
That FAQ needs to be updated, still refers to the offline mode that was offered shortly before the KS was over and then dropped. And you can play the game without anyone else, that was offered from the start and still exist, but you are still online in a multiplayer game and other people's actions directly affect your game even though you don't see those other people. Semantics don't work when the game is clearly advertised as and works as an online multiplayer game.

And you'll see that most games offered on Steam are listed as Single Player despite being online multiplayer games only, that's a Steam thing, nothing else. FD's advertisements are clear, this is an online multiplayer game, thinking that what the company says the game is, is what the game is.

I would disagree with the contention that it needs to be updated - it is a record of the design at the point in time of the Kickstarter. Note that offline mode is referred to as an update and that Solo Online is the intended single player experience.

While all players may affect and experience the same single shared galaxy state, regardless of game mode or platform, each player can choose to play the game with a cast-iron guarantee that they will meet no other players while they play - by selecting Solo as one of the four options from the game mode selection menu.
 
Once again, this IS an online multiplayer game, you ARE always playing with other people, you just can't see them because you are in Solo. YOU need to look into the game YOU bought, you don't seem to know a thing about it.
And you'll see that most games offered on Steam are listed as Single Player despite being online multiplayer games only, that's a Steam thing, nothing else. FD's advertisements are clear, this is an online multiplayer game, thinking that what the company says the game is, is what the game is.

I think you're losing it man. So Steam, the most popular go to PC gaming store, and a multi-billion dollar distributor/developer with more than 100 million customers, is falsely advertising games? Good one. ED is also falsely advertising it's own game? ED is most certainly online, but it is a SINGLE PLAYER GAME WITH MULTIPLAYER ASPECTS! Not the other way around. My game play is in no way affected by other players, I never see another player, I'm never bothered by another player. Just because there is a BGS doesn't make it strictly multiplayer, and it certainly has little to no effect on the game overall. I've been Bounty Hunting in the same 5 systems for over a year, trading the same loop for 4 months, and running missions out of the same ~50 LY area for a year, nothing has changed, where is the multiplayer effect?When, what other players do, has zero effect on the outcome of your game play, it's not multiplayer. Online and Multiplayer are NOT the same thing.
 
I would disagree with the contention that it needs to be updated - it is a record of the design at the point in time of the Kickstarter. Note that offline mode is referred to as an update and that Solo Online is the intended single player experience.

While all players may affect and experience the same single shared galaxy state, regardless of game mode or platform, each player can choose to play the game with a cast-iron guarantee that they will meet no other players while they play - by selecting Solo as one of the four options from the game mode selection menu.

Yes, as I said, you have the option to play this online multiplayer game without seeing other players, but the fact remains that it's an online multiplayer game, that aspect never changes regardless of the mode you pick, David presented it as such from day 1 and that's something that is pushed in the advertising, online multiplayer game.
 
I think you're losing it man. So Steam, the most popular go to PC gaming store, and a multi-billion dollar distributor/developer with more than 100 million customers, is falsely advertising games? Good one. ED is also falsely advertising it's own game? ED is most certainly online, but it is a SINGLE PLAYER GAME WITH MULTIPLAYER ASPECTS! Not the other way around. My game play is in no way affected by other players, I never see another player, I'm never bothered by another player. Just because there is a BGS doesn't make it strictly multiplayer, and it certainly has little to no effect on the game overall. I've been Bounty Hunting in the same 5 systems for over a year, trading the same loop for 4 months, and running missions out of the same ~50 LY area for a year, nothing has changed, where is the multiplayer effect?When, what other players do, has zero effect on the outcome of your game play, it's not multiplayer. Online and Multiplayer are NOT the same thing.

Steam misadvertising games...color me shocked! Yes, actually, they've done that all along, it's been brought up repeatedly over the years by the developers and customers, Valve's response...well...it's still happening today, Valve doesn't actually care, it's not like they actually have any real competition you know, like, none at all, so they don't HAVE to give a damn, don't like it, go elsewhere..oh..right..you can't! I don't like the folks who run Valve, that predates Steam by years, but they got the market by the short and curlies and they know it, stupid they aren't.

And you can keep on telling yourself that no one else has any effect on the game world since you play in Solo, that doesn't change the reality of the situation. One of my early trade runs was killed off by people playing the BGS while I was off in the Black in Solo mode. Came back to the bubble, decided I wanted to go out in an Anaconda next time and headed for my trade run and...hmm...the Imperial systems and stations I bought and sold Imp Slaves in at both ends are now...Federation on one end and YLR on the other end? Great, no more easy money there, all because people playing the game changed the game world while I was literally not looking. I was in Solo too, so how the hell could they affect my game, since according to you, that's how it works? Because that's not how it works, we're all in the exact same game world at all times regardless of modes and the actions of other players directly impact our game.

Sounds like you've picked a nice little out of the way area where no one has yet messed around with anything, lucky you, but you can read the forums and see exactly how many others are constantly impacted by the actions of other players no matter what mode they play in. Trade runs die, systems change factions, rare goods suddenly can't be bought anymore, stations going dark due to players selling off UAs en masse to them, that impacts the game world for everyone.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Yes, as I said, you have the option to play this online multiplayer game without seeing other players, but the fact remains that it's an online multiplayer game, that aspect never changes regardless of the mode you pick, David presented it as such from day 1 and that's something that is pushed in the advertising, online multiplayer game.

Yup - an online game where multiple players all affect the game world - and which each and every player can choose to play with no other players at all....
 
Steam misadvertising games...color me shocked! Yes, actually, they've done that all along, it's been brought up repeatedly over the years by the developers and customers, Valve's response...well...it's still happening today, Valve doesn't actually care, it's not like they actually have any real competition you know, like, none at all, so they don't HAVE to give a damn, don't like it, go elsewhere..oh..right..you can't! I don't like the folks who run Valve, that predates Steam by years, but they got the market by the short and curlies and they know it, stupid they aren't.

And you can keep on telling yourself that no one else has any effect on the game world since you play in Solo, that doesn't change the reality of the situation. One of my early trade runs was killed off by people playing the BGS while I was off in the Black in Solo mode. Came back to the bubble, decided I wanted to go out in an Anaconda next time and headed for my trade run and...hmm...the Imperial systems and stations I bought and sold Imp Slaves in at both ends are now...Federation on one end and YLR on the other end? Great, no more easy money there, all because people playing the game changed the game world while I was literally not looking. I was in Solo too, so how the hell could they affect my game, since according to you, that's how it works? Because that's not how it works, we're all in the exact same game world at all times regardless of modes and the actions of other players directly impact our game.

Sounds like you've picked a nice little out of the way area where no one has yet messed around with anything, lucky you, but you can read the forums and see exactly how many others are constantly impacted by the actions of other players no matter what mode they play in. Trade runs die, systems change factions, rare goods suddenly can't be bought anymore, stations going dark due to players selling off UAs en masse to them, that impacts the game world for everyone.

It's a single player game, get over it, you ARE WRONG! My personal game play has not been affected by other players, and even if it were, it doesn't necessarily make it a multiplayer game. Perhaps we can find common ground in accepting the the Background Sim (BGS) is in fact multiplayer, while ALL other aspects are 100% single player, and the "all other aspects" is what counts. At the end of the day, it's a single player game with multiplayer elements, that simple. Let it go.
 
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Yup - an online game where multiple players all affect the game world - and which each and every player can choose to play with no other players at all....

Like I said, brilliant move on FD's part, online multiplayer game that actually appeals to the single player demographic, truly brilliant, you know some folks at Blizzard, Turbine and other companies putting out MMOs are now going 'holy hell, that worked? Ok people, get on this, how can we replicate this!'....Chris Roberts has already started down that path with Star Citizen, talking about allowing people to run their own private servers....really a brilliant move.
 
Like I said, brilliant move on FD's part, online multiplayer game that actually appeals to the single player demographic, truly brilliant, you know some folks at Blizzard, Turbine and other companies putting out MMOs are now going 'holy hell, that worked? Ok people, get on this, how can we replicate this!'....Chris Roberts has already started down that path with Star Citizen, talking about allowing people to run their own private servers....really a brilliant move.

> Honestly, I would be sold on SC if I could run my own server. :)
 
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