Indeed, but at present I'm really coming around to the idea that despite not being impressed with the mentality it makes the game rather more interesting, so I'm becoming more and more fine with it (although I'd still rather have great in-game reasons for it, I cringe every time a genuine pirate gets called a griefer). There aren't enough of them for it to be a real problem, just enough to add a bit more risk.
PVP is not Griefing
- Thread starter darshu
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Actually no, I wasn't. The 'v'stands for versus, which in the PvP context, imo, implies a competitive situation whereby both parties can compete. In the typical griefing/ganking scenario the griefer/ganker typically intitiates the engagement from a position such that 'competition' is not possible for the intended target (ie the griefer/ganker is not interested in a balanced fair fight). And a griefer will of course use that against a particular player or group repeatedly, while a ganker will opt for an exaggerated power disparity over his/her target (simply because they can and for no other reason but to ruin other's days).
It is also true however that attacking from a position of strength is a legitimate PvP tactic (ie fight the battle on your terms/ground not those of your opponent, and a pirate for example is not exactly after a fair fight). That's why the issue can be so blurred. But the discussion here was about griefing in relation to PvP - the key here in my mind is the INTENT of the griefer/ganker him/herself.
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Progression is being able to haul more cargo than you can in a sidey, progression is being able to get to a combat worthy ship, but you know all this and for some reason you are choosing to ignore it. There is nothing wrong with 'shooting' things in this game, but lets not pretend it is all pvp.
And Battlefield or DOTA are not the best examples if I may say.
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Everyone in this game starts in the same situation and has essentially the same opportunities available. Thus, everyone can compete.
You can't and don't know the intent. These images are intended for EVE and so aren't completely relevant, but the idea is the same. Unless a guy is verbally or textually harassing you, or following you around in a distinct attempt to make it impossible to play at all, you don't know the intent, or that there even is any distinct intent, other than shooting anything that moves.
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Of course not - some of it is PvE.
wow, what a sheriff. how can i compete against a group of psychos alone ? no sir i will avoid that place until i get some backup. also i don't know how to reach larve ! try stipping off some heavy modules so you get more jump range. try dumping some limpets from your cargohold or something. also i don't camp stations. ATM i'm exploring
but i plan to take a longer break so i might just come to that system when i log tonight, to end it with style so it will be
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Well if he didn't want to be a target maybe he should fly something with some actual defensive capabilities rather than a space truck. The game is called Elite
angerous, not Euro-Space Trucker 3300, space is dangerous, every time you pull out of the station you play a game of chance, that's where all the real fun comes from especially in open. Granted there are definitely things that could be improved, system authorities are basically a joke right now, if they were buffed up they would provide the safe-haven high-sec systems are supposed to be, but outside of that, when you select the open play option you should do so with the knowledge that it means you will be interacting with real people in what ever way they or you decide to interact, whether that means they play the murderous psychopath, the flamboyant pirate, the humble trader, or anything in between.I've no problem with this, and as the game develops you will find that if you kill players without reason or provocation that you will in turn be hunted down. Potentially by those players or by the multitude of players who are better than you and will want your bounty. It's all part of the game. We're in the early stages at present but as it matures over the coming years I think we'll find its self policing much the same as Ultima and the other earlier free-for-all MMOs evolved.
The non-sense is that that you are getting caught in the first place. We have this beautiful combat layer in super-cruise that requires a player to actually get behind another player intercept him. And it does not have a large range either. Are you telling me you can not avoid being interdicted in your hauler? To exchange fire with a viper/conda/python you first need to get caught with your pants down in super cruise. You were not paying attention while traveling and are afterwards paying the price.
Now I start to understand how many people are complaining about:
a) not seeing any other players
b) super cruise being boring
c) being in combat without a chance to survive
All 3 things are related, I meet nearly each time I am in super-cruise some player, I am bounty hunter, so I have no real interest to intercept them, because currently players seem to be mostly clean at least locally. But for sure I always watch my back for that very same reason, especially when I travel around with a large bounty on my head. You bet that I would be even more paranoid about my radar when I actually would carry millions worth in cargo.
PVP starts in super cruise and if you are playing in open you are permanently in a pvp environment, so check your six and your surroundings. And I want to gratulated FD for nailing the SC mechanics so great, because it is exceptional hard to actually sneak up on someone expect when he tries to dock or fuel-scoop. In nearly all other cases players fly away from mass sources and thus accelerate faster than you, you have to chase them to their destination point before you can intercept them and if they land via spiraling instead of zeno slide than you have a hell of time to react quick enough still.
Actually, no, not everyone is in the same situation re starting. I dare say, that like me, you had multiple start options due to your backing level, did you not? And of course not everyone starts at the same time - someone starting out now is in a very different position in the 'pecking order' so to speak than someone who started in gamma for example. But there'll always be a bigger fish no matter what your starting options are or timing is - that's not the issue. The point remains that a griefer or ganker is NOT interested in a balanced or even remotely competitive PvP engagement - the problem lies in the attitude of a player who insists on griefing or ganking (and all the while insisting that they're really engaging in PvP, when in truth they're not). The point of this thread, I thought, was not to confuse griefing (and ganking imo) with PvP.
And I don't need to know the 'intent' of a griefer or ganker to be able to recognise one when I see one (or distinguish them from a true PvP'er). Their in-game behaviour is what gives them away - every time.
Well you just said that this entire game is not a competitive PvP environment due to how people get off to different starts, so why would someone wanting balanced and competitive engagements come here?
There is no such thing as a true PvPer.
Not sure who invented it, but I believe it was codified by the nascent MUD and MMO industry back in the 90s. Or, in other words, developers that realized that unwanted aggression with the intent to cause grief to others was driving players away and reducing their revenue.
I love the Griefer definition given by Gorden Walton, a developer that already had multiplayer experience before Ultima Online was a thing: "A griefer is someone who, through his social actions, costs you more money than he gives you."
Very subjective. I find what you call "sandbox PvP" a pure waste of time, since the objective of at least one of the combatants is typically to have the fight decided before the first shot is fired.
I would always rather take part in a good arena PvP, with the sides evenly matched and without a penalty for the loser. This is the kind of PvP I enjoy, not the mess that is... whatever ED currently has.
There are also those of us that have been there, done that, and don't want to try it ever again. Other MMOs tried this kind of man-eats-dog scenario, and with a few exceptions (mainly EVE and some Asian MMOs) it didn't quite work.
The reason I swear to never again open myself to non-consensual PvP is exactly because I've experienced the scenario you want, and found it to be, for me at least, the complete opposite of fun. Never going to waste time or money with something of the kind ever again.
Classic Elite starting position. For those of us that played the original it's a nostalgic place.
Solo isn't the answer for everyone. Those that want to meet others, but don't want conflict with other players, are left high and dry by that choice.
The best option for those players, IMHO, would be to have a "PvE Open" mode too, allowing players that want to meet others without PvP to get what they desire. Though Mobius seems to be a good stopgag solution.
Where did I say the entire game is not a competitive PvP environment? Different starting options and timings does not make it uncompetitive and I never said that. I stated that a griefer/ganker is not interested in a balanced or remotely competitive PvP engagement. Learn to read please.
You do realise that even David Braben and Frontier's intent all along was that PvP be possible, albeit rare? But again, griefing/ganking is NOT PvP. The tactics used (eg attacking from a position of strength or dominance) can be legitimate in PvP, but once they are used with the deliberate intent to grief or gank (ie go beyond piracy for example to deliberately targeting particular players or newbies) it is no longer PvP in my opinion but harassment at best, even bullying in certain circumstances. The trick is the fine line between the two - at what point can one be sure it has transitioned from a legitimate PvP tactic to one of griefing or ganking? That's probably only something that can be assessed on a case-by-case basis based on the circumstances.
I'm done with you. You insist that the game is competitive right up until someone shoots you, at which point it is suddenly uncompetitive. Now you outright contradict yourself about whether griefing is a behaviour or an intent. They say you can't win an argument on the Internet. They're wrong.
You are now splitting hairs about griefing and ganking as you realise that Elite will not let one player kill another time after time after time. Ganking is describing a disparity in level / ability to give a player a massive advantage. All Player versus try to make sure the odds are in their favour, PvP or PvE, you'd be crazy not to.
If I were interested in the "Race to Elite" I'd set up my FreEagle as a good combat ship and start killing those nice unarmed, no-shields whales of supertankers that are maxed out for the "Rare Round Trip" - it'd be almost literally the 'Fish in a Barrel' scenario. I'd get points for the kills to boost my rating, as that's the only way the rating goes up.
I know I've worked the metaphor to death in other threads, but it'd be the U-Boat "Happy Time" writ large, single unarmed merchantmen sailing a very well known trade route with a Wolf Pack just waiting for them to arrive.
If I were interested in the e-peen "Look how many million creds I make from one run" game, I'd probably think that leaving some way of avoiding the Wolf Packs - try a different route other than the well published one or not make my ship a hollow box for cargo to drop in.
Maybe find a way to get some armed escort - there's a thread at this very moment describing the situation in Lave and a bunch of people are arriving to see if they can get the 400k bounties on the players that are knocking off the supertankers.
You do not have to keep hitting your head against a brick wall, driving your ship into dangerous waters and complaining when something happens.
Behaviour is an indicator of intent. Not always accurate, true, but pretty reliable in most cases.
Where did I insist the game was competitive until someone shoots me? Where did I state that once they shoot me it becomes uncompetitive? Where did I once in my posts complain or comment on anyone shooting me personally in-game? My commentary has been focused on the point of view that griefing and ganking do not constitute legitimate PvP. Again, while the tactics used can be legitimate in PvP, once they cross the line to griefing or ganking they are not (imo, as per my previous posts).
Postcript: Oh by the way - I can hardly complain about anyone shooting me in-game anyway as I'm yet to even see another player (apart from my father).
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Which is why in one of my earlier posts I raised the point that the tactics used by griefers/gankers can be legitimate tactics in 'true' PvP (I agree, fight a battle on your terms, not those of your opponent). Doesn't make those tactics legitimate when it crosses the line into griefing or ganking though - and that's the hard bit to determine because the line is always going to be blurred to a degree.
You have just described the control mechanism. ASW carrier hunter-killer groups, defending the convoys. Welcome to Harpoon.
I'll stick with solo play.
You know what the funny part is? Someone get attacked from a 10 million cobra in his 100 million, maybe 150 million credits type 9 and here you are and claim that the cobra pilot is here at the disadvantage. Really? How fast the type 9 cmdr will be able to replace his losses? 30 minutes? Maybe up to 2 hours if he has to pay the full 5% and is rather slow in trading. Not enough to stop most from getting rather blown to bits than to abandon some cargo. Now look at the pirate? What he gets out of this? 10 gold for 100k maybe if he is lucky? 10 Rare goods if he really, really is lucky? And what does he risk for that? Getting to blown to bits by angry traders who can hire permanently bounty hunters to deal with those players just from their fuel expenses.
There is a large discrepancy in wealth and wealth generation from those two professions. Trading generates incredible amount of credits compared to anything else. And that is ok, because this imbalance creates chances for emergent gameplay. Wealth traders have the money to deal with such loses while pirates have to live from the leftovers of the trading profession and take the risk of bounty hunters which again can use vastly superior combat ships to pirates because they don´t have to deal with cargo at all.
The biggest issue right now is the missing wing mechanics which prevents the emergent gameplay experience and maybe the problem that most escort pilots would need to completely change their ship builds to increase their jump-range. Vipers are great system patrols, but they are lousy escorts without a carrier.
Frontier we want small landing pads for anacondas and type-9, at least two piggyback fighters should be an option for those ships!
If someone is interested to hire me or my whole squadron as escort for his trading operating thank please PM me, I would be glad to hear about your problems and what kind of ships we need to buy to actually be a valid escort that does not hinder your trading. And I can guarantee you that your the prices should be affordable even if you fly in a type-7 / asp.
You are going round and meeting yourself coming back. Tactics are tactics are tactics, but contrary to the old adage it's the losers that are writing the history at the moment. Everyone complaining about getting killed is happy to fall back on the 'I was griefed / ganked' rather than 'my choices lead me to a position where I was a sitting duck in the sights of a gun'.
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