Python/Class 6 thruster issue? (Devs please have a look)

[Kubicide]

They'll be in the same update probably. The changes to the python is something like -17% to speeds, turn rates and accelerations, -33% to base shield strength roughly. This puts the flight model in a better place for a large fighting based ship and also leaves room for the other fighting ships to come so they can be more manoeuvrable than it. The python still has one of the best hard point placements when it can get its guns to bare on a target and it won't become a sitting duck either.

Glad to hear about the Python changes. Drove one for about four weeks straight (especially over the holidays) and have to say it was way too good ("overpowered") compared to the other ships available today. And there's a reason so many folks are racing to get one - and a reason they are very emotional about any reduction!

Hate to say it but, frankly, this ship made the game very boring to me. It could do everything too well and I lost motivation to progress due to the ease at which this ship could handle any task.

(Not sure if I would have reduced the maneuvability, or gone after a heavy reduction in cargo to keep its role more as a heavy fighter).



Edit: IMO the fault or problem here isn't with making a nerf; it's with the lack of beta testing of game elements. The Python was never made available during beta so it shouldn't be surprising that 'it's balance' wasn't tested. Same thing for other tweaks that are happening now that the game is live - most of the tweaks would likely not be required had these things been better tested during the beta. IMO of course...

 

[Valor_Bunker]

The changes to the python is something like -17% to speeds, turn rates and accelerations, -33% to base shield strength roughly.

Viper: Masterrace ... sorry MASTERSHIP.

In PVP Python will be brought down with ease:

- No running away, much slower,
- much lower turn rates, offering that drives for free
- much weaker shields

You just nerfed the Python to death, at least for open play. It is to weak and to expensive. The hardpoints positions are good, but at the moment weapons are too weak, to be a threat.

VIPER > PYTHON

And yes, it will be a sitting duck. Dont you see, that Pythons are and will be first targets for any enemy player?

 

[wstephenson]

And all around the internet, thousands of programmers sigh and nod sagely...

Think we can kindly suggest some feature tests that check that invariants like E < D < C < B < A (for example) are upheld in the code? Discovering data mistakes like this by roundtrips to the forum must among the slower ways to debug the game.

 

[Roadblock]

Viper: Masterrace ... sorry MASTERSHIP.

In PVP Python will be brought down with ease:

- No running away, much slower,
- much lower turn rates, offering that drives for free
- much weaker shields

You just nerfed the Python to death, at for open play. It is to weak and to expensive. The hardpoints positions are good, but at the moment weapons are too weak, to be a threat.

VIPER > PYTHON

And yes, it will be a stiiting duck.

I do share a few of your concerns.. a 17% reduction in speed would take it's currently listed 280 boost value down to 239.3, which is actually lower than the anaconda. That might be a bit over the top. I don't think the ship is too fast as it stands now, just perhaps a little too nimble.

I hope it's fair to say that if it turns out the changes make the Python perform in a way that is unacceptable to FD, they'll fix it. Mike's responsiveness in this thread in both his willingness to communicate about how the system is supposed to work, and how fast he corrected the issue are proof of that. I think we should wait and see just how well the ship performs after the changes, and then start a discussion about it here.

This is the game/sim that I've dreamed about ever since I was a little kid playing Elite on my old Commodore 64. I intend to stick around here a long time. I'm sure in 2-3 years the game won't look anything like what it does now, and there will have been a ton of nerfs/buffs/adjustments made. I doubt these guys are going to make the game un-fun.

 

[wstephenson]

Whoa - luckily ship price isn't determined by supply and demand - otherwise the price would have plummeted by the time I get around to sell mine - guess it'll take a dumbfire Viper only one series of bursts to take it down.

Oh well - I'll find something else to fly...

If people are racing to dump their "useless" Pythons, I'd be in the queue to pick up their distressed assets for cheap. I don't believe they will actually be all that bad, post balancing.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

Viper: Masterrace ... sorry MASTERSHIP.

In PVP Python will be brought down with ease:

- No running away, much slower,
- much lower turn rates, offering that drives for free
- much weaker shields

You just nerfed the Python to death, at least for open play. It is to weak and to expensive. The hardpoints positions are good, but at the moment weapons are too weak, to be a threat.

VIPER > PYTHON

And yes, it will be a sitting duck. Dont you see, that Pythons are and will be first targets for any enemy player?

Well - ast first I was quite shocked to read about the changes - after thinking about it, it really is a minor nerf - not sure what the change in base shields does in actual shield strength due to absent documentation, but I assume at worst, it will cut the time for a Viper to down a Pythons shields from 6 to 4 seconds.

Two seconds really isn't all that much. (Granted - I don't know what kind of shield that Python had fitted, but it doesn't really matter - just imagine a full wing of Vipers - the Python will be down in under a second, so it's a miniscule change in the longer run.)

 

[DaveB]

And all around the internet, thousands of programmers sigh and nod sagely...

Not just programmers, sysadmins too Always read the config files directly, not their supposed "sources"... Getting burned by that is as much of a "rite of passage" for a sysadmin as when (not if - we've all done it even if we don't admit it) you nuke a system with a typo from the root prompt...

 

[Tettric]

I was under the impression that you could spend more on heat/power efficient parts that perform worse than their counterparts but are better if you wish to run cold or mount better weapons...

 

[SuBSynk]

I do share a few of your concerns.. a 17% reduction in speed would take it's currently listed 280 boost value down to 239.3, which is actually lower than the anaconda. That might be a bit over the top. I don't think the ship is too fast as it stands now, just perhaps a little too nimble.

We do not know what other ships may be balanced, i assume many ships will be altered including -for all we know- the anaconda's top speed.

As a Python owner i'm happy with whatever FD decide to do as its not like i have to keep the ship if i don't like the end result and it really wasn't supposed to be a pure fighter anyway i always thought

 

[Katkon]

OP - I agree with your conclusions; something appears to be wrong. Simply speaking, upgrading a module while keeping other modules the same, should result in a performance increase from the upgraded module. Paying extra for a performance decrease makes no sense.

 

[DaveB]

We do not know what other ships may be balanced, i assume many ships will be altered including -for all we know- the anaconda's top speed.

As a Python owner i'm happy with whatever FD decide to do as its not like i have to keep the ship if i don't like the end result and it really wasn't supposed to be a pure fighter anyway i always thought

Exactly. I'm currently enjoying my Asp but when the funds become available to fly a Python I'm definitely going to try one out, nerfs notwithstanding.

 

[Roadblock]

We do not know what other ships may be balanced, i assume many ships will be altered including -for all we know- the anaconda's top speed.

As a Python owner i'm happy with whatever FD decide to do as its not like i have to keep the ship if i don't like the end result and it really wasn't supposed to be a pure fighter anyway i always thought

Yeah, I was thinking the same. If they do change the Python enough that it isn't as fun anymore, then I would hope that at some point they will introduce a dedicated 'heavy fighter'.

 

[Mike Evans]

Yeah, I was thinking the same. If they do change the Python enough that it isn't as fun anymore, then I would hope that at some point they will introduce a dedicated 'heavy fighter'.

The vulture is going to be the dedicated heavy fighter (literally it's not going to be very good at anything else but shooting and flying) where as the Python is supposed to be more of a gun ship/heavy weapons platform.

 

[Starbuckz]

The vulture is going to be the dedicated heavy fighter (literally it's not going to be very good at anything else but shooting and flying) where as the Python is supposed to be more of a gun ship/heavy weapons platform.

But when?? :O

 

[Logios]

They'll be in the same update probably. The changes to the python is something like -17% to speeds, turn rates and accelerations, -33% to base shield strength roughly. This puts the flight model in a better place for a large fighting based ship and also leaves room for the other fighting ships to come so they can be more manoeuvrable than it. The python still has one of the best hard point placements when it can get its guns to bare on a target and it won't become a sitting duck either.

I don't mind the shield nerf, but -17% to speed and turning is just WAY too massive of a nerf. This WILL make it a sitting duck, what an awful design choice.

The vulture is going to be the dedicated heavy fighter (literally it's not going to be very good at anything else but shooting and flying) where as the Python is supposed to be more of a gun ship/heavy weapons platform.

Hold on, you're balancing around ships that haven't even been released and probably won't be for the foreseeable future? Wow... what are you guys doing?

 

[Starbuckz]

I don't mind the shield nerf, but -17% to speed and turning is just WAY too massive of a nerf. This WILL make it a sitting duck, what an awful design choice.



Hold on, you're balancing around ships that haven't even been released and probably won't be for the foreseeable future? Wow... what are you guys doing?

Would you please calm down and stop judging things of which you have no idea how big their actual impact will be?

 

[Inodoro Pereyra]

They'll be in the same update probably. The changes to the python is something like -17% to speeds, turn rates and accelerations, -33% to base shield strength roughly. This puts the flight model in a better place for a large fighting based ship and also leaves room for the other fighting ships to come so they can be more manoeuvrable than it. The python still has one of the best hard point placements when it can get its guns to bare on a target and it won't become a sitting duck either.

Hi, Mike.
I wonder why the boost in the Python is so bad... (from actual 250max to 280... or new 210 to 230), whereas Anaconda and other have a 25% or more with boost... can you "help" with that...? (That is bad for the illegal races!)
Thanks!!
Onane

 

[Logios]

Would you please calm down and stop judging things of which you have no idea how big their actual impact will be?

I know EXACTLY how big the impact will be, -17%, he told us. That's a top speed of ~230 with A thrusters, on top of the shield nerf, it will be a sitting duck in combat. I'm sorry but that is a horrible decision.

 

[Mike Evans]

I don't mind the shield nerf, but -17% to speed and turning is just WAY too massive of a nerf. This WILL make it a sitting duck, what an awful design choice.



Hold on, you're balancing around ships that haven't even been released and probably won't be for the foreseeable future? Wow... what are you guys doing?

17% is small. Anything less and the change wouldn't even be noticeable. I'd be surprised if it was noticeable even now. It might be a sitting duck if you fit it with the smallest and crappiest thruster module you can get away with but it would have been that way before as well.

Of course I'm balancing ships based on what I have access too right now. It makes no sense to set up a ship the moment before release based on what's only in the public build when I know in advance or already have access to all the other ships that will also be released soon. What a ridiculous idea. I'd have to constantly adjust each ship in the whole game to take into account a new ship each and every time if I hadn't tried to look at the big picture first. It might mean a ship gets released that doesn't seem to fit the current trend, or relies on game play that hasn't made it in yet so it's a bit weaker but if I tried to counter those things I'd only have to take them away later and that doesn't go down well

 

[Derath]

I don't mind the shield nerf, but -17% to speed and turning is just WAY too massive of a nerf. This WILL make it a sitting duck, what an awful design choice.



Hold on, you're balancing around ships that haven't even been released and probably won't be for the foreseeable future? Wow... what are you guys doing?

Have to say the last part of this is my #1 piece of beef here, like over and over again. (@Devs) Stop making balance choices around things that don't exist its your own damn fault as a company that you released the game with no higher end choices for combat because every ship post asp is a trade vessel. You even made two ships nobody in their right mind will even fly! ><... ARGGHHGHHHHHGHGHGHGHGGHH

Sorry to everyone (including devs) had to get that out, nothing personal just gonna go put my head in a bag for a while.