Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand

[Danquememe]

Oh, and the Dangerous thing has been done to death, so you're coming across trollish now.

Sir David himself said that the Dangerous refers to the rank, not to some hypothetical dystopian element of lawlessness. If it were really as you imply, you'd never get into an Imperial/Federal Coriolis with any significant amount of bounties. They'd be scanning every ship that asked for docking, and blowing you away as soon as you got within range.

I'm certainly not an expert on what the developers have or haven't said about the game - I'm new, as stated, and am just coming to it now, in mid-2020.

And yes the "keeping Elite dangerous" thing has been done to death, apologies for that as it is cliche.

But - there's an element of truth to it. I never think or worry about NPCs in a system. Evading an NPC interdiction is the height of triviality. Other players, however, are another thing altogether, and their presence forces me into an extremely enjoyable decision loop that influences everything I do as long as they are around. Do I immediately high wake? Can I get to the station without getting interdicted? Do I interdict them? All of these options are on the table, and that makes for engaging gameplay. It's gameplay challenge and interest, and what I enjoy about Open, regardless of whether any PVP actually results.

 

[Drelthar]

Perhaps this will help you see my own point of view a little.

The title of your post has PVP and ganking together, with a slash between them.

I like one of those two things, and see them as very very different, entirely separate from each other

 

[Danquememe]

Your own OP states that you had a learning curve, yet you want to deny that same experience to other people?

Where, in anything written above, would you construe that from? I'm not seeking to deny anything to anyone; in fact, my question is precisely around the expectations players have about Open gameplay. I think that's been made abundantly clear.

 

[Zannry]

Open is the only mode I can't predict what will happen 100% of the time. I like surprises and can accept not all surprises are good ones. That said, most of the time Open and any other mode are indistinguishable outside of hi traffic areas.

 

[Danquememe]

Perhaps this will help you see my own point of view a little.

The title of your post has PVP and ganking together, with a slash between them.

I like one of those two things, and see them as very very different, entirely separate from each other

Well, you should really give 1v1s and wingfights a try, they're really different than ganking and you might find you like them, too!

(I'm teasing of course - I take your meaning)

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

A new player here, about 6 weeks into my time in Elite. So apologies if this is repetitious, but it's something that's been on my mind.

I'd really like to have some dialogue with players who mainly play in Open, but who get angry / upset when they encounter the sort of "rogue commanders who have betrayed the Pilots Federation" described on the game's website, i.e. gankers and pirates.

Specifically, I'd like to ask: what kind of player interactions are you hoping to experience in Open, if not PVP combat? What are your expectations? Help me understand what you think Open is going to provide?

And most importantly, how often does it actually happen that you have a cooperative (non-PVP), spontaneous emergent experience in Open? Does that actually happen? I honestly don't know.

I've played mostly in Open, and found my group of in-game friends through being ganked. They've since gone on to be my mentors and help me learn the game, unlock engineers, etc. If I wasn't playing in Open, I wouldn't have met them, so I'm grateful I did. But my "introduction" came via interdiction and destruction. It turns out that was a very small price to pay to open a door to a huge amount of progression and expert guidance. I wasn't mad about it at the time, and I'm tremendously grateful now, once I realized just how complex and involved making positive progress in this game can be.

Accepting the friend request from the player with the crazy looking Holo-Me was the smartest thing I did in my first few hours in the game, as it turns out.

Nice post. Welcome to the game. Hope you're enjoying it!

I've spent the vast majority of my Elite career on the wrong side of the law. I've noticed two truisms across people that... how shall I say it... really just don't like PvP in Open. Granted, I'm not the people your OP is looking to engage but perhaps the two pennies will be worthwhile.

1) An inability to separate fantasy from reality. I'm not playing a game by its rules but attacking you personally. Many have a thin veil, if any, separating the out-of-character from the in-character.

2) A complete misreading of Elite's setting. I can't help but chuckle when people bring up comparisons to classic Star Trek. They really do think Elite is set in a similarly utopian paradise where violence against your fellow CMDR is simply unthinkable. Never mind the box itself tells you otherwise. Beyond that the game mechanics make it very, very clear Elite is a terrifying dystopia regardless of what mode you play in.

 

[WR3ND]

I'm not much for the meta game-play. Whether or not that's PVP is little difference to me. Back before Engineers I found it more compelling and rewarding, though would have still preferred if the game didn't have rebuys at all and you just lost your ships and modules. I played in Open for the first year or so, and had a fair bit of fun trading rares and participating in CGs in a Cobra and interacting with player pirates and such on occasion.

These days I'm mostly mode agnostic, as it were. I'd rather just make the most of the game for myself in my own ways.

Cheers.

 

[DemiserofD]

Nice post. Welcome to the game. Hope you're enjoying it!

I've spent the vast majority of my Elite career on the wrong side of the law. I've noticed two truisms across people that... how shall I say it... really just don't like PvP in Open. Granted, I'm not the people your OP is looking to engage but perhaps the two pennies will be worthwhile.

1) An inability to separate fantasy from reality. I'm not playing a game by its rules but attacking you personally. Many have a thin veil, if any, separating the out-of-character from the in-character.

2) A complete misreading of Elite's setting. I can't help but chuckle when people bring up comparisons to classic Star Trek. They really do think Elite is set in a similarly utopian paradise where violence against your fellow CMDR is simply unthinkable. Never mind the box itself tells you otherwise. Beyond that the game mechanics make it very, very clear Elite is a terrifying dystopia regardless of what mode you play in.

There's dystopia and then there's a setting that just doesn't make sense.

A realistic view would be one where miners are occasionally interdicted while passing through low-sec systems, the pirates demand some of their haul, and everyone goes about their business, the economy intact.

An unrealistic view is one where anyone passing through the highest security systems in the galaxy have a 50/50 chance of getting interdicted and blown up for no reason. Where a single ton of a commodity can pay for murdering hundreds of people. Where the police completely give up on searching for you after a maximum of 20 hours.

The current system doesn't in any way discourage random ganking, but don't act like this is part of some sort of broader narrative. A universe with rules like that would very rapidly collapse entirely.

 

[Just Paul]

I'm specifically trying to understand how frequently people actually meet in a pacifist way in Open, and then go on to become friends, etc., as compared to "I joined a Discord (or whatever) and found like-minded players that way." Because, if I understand the complaints correctly, that's seemingly the thing that people are playing in Open for - some kind of emergent co-op experience - but then they get angry when what they actually encounter is emergent PVP / ganking.

I have/had the same experience with gankers. Yes they try to make your ship explode, but if you are not a total a&&head they help you to get better and many go out of their way to help you.
About the pacifist encounters. We help newbies to the nebula unlock the engineers, give them tours of the nebula, and sometimes help them run missions by winging up with them. Some have what feels like 100 Condas following them around.

There's dystopia and then there's a setting that just doesn't make sense.

A realistic view would be one where miners are occasionally interdicted while passing through low-sec systems, the pirates demand some of their haul, and everyone goes about their business, the economy intact.

An unrealistic view is one where anyone passing through the highest security systems in the galaxy have a 50/50 chance of getting interdicted and blown up for no reason. Where a single ton of a commodity can pay for murdering hundreds of people. Where the police completely give up on searching for you after a maximum of 20 hours.

The current system doesn't in any way discourage random ganking, but don't act like this is part of some sort of broader narrative. A universe with rules like that would very rapidly collapse entirely.

Read the books, start with the Dark Wheel. Rarely did a pilot make it into retirement and Elite pilots were hunted.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Open is open, mostly as safe as solo, with only random encounters if one doesn't frequent known hotspots.

Now - what else can one do in open bar fight? I've spent the majority of my time in open running missions, joining up with friends to engage in mutually beneficial play, you may be surprised how little PvP actually exists in the larger game

But you play how you wish, wherever you wish - I'll do the same

 

[Havvk]

There's dystopia and then there's a setting that just doesn't make sense.

A realistic view would be one where miners are occasionally interdicted while passing through low-sec systems, the pirates demand some of their haul, and everyone goes about their business, the economy intact.

An unrealistic view is one where anyone passing through the highest security systems in the galaxy have a 50/50 chance of getting interdicted and blown up for no reason. Where a single ton of a commodity can pay for murdering hundreds of people. Where the police completely give up on searching for you after a maximum of 20 hours.

The current system doesn't in any way discourage random ganking, but don't act like this is part of some sort of broader narrative. A universe with rules like that would very rapidly collapse entirely.

This

 

[Chaparral]

The game is designed as you say OP. The only mode that permits players to meet new players and interact with them is full PVP in Open mode.

Many players of ED have also played in the countless other mmos that have Open with partitioned PVP, or with more effective C&P in their full Open environments. People desire positive social interaction, and often seek that interaction in mmos.

Given the P2P architecture, menu logging, combat logging, instance caps, blocking etc. this game does not permit effective community policing, and the npc police do not have instant instancing capabilities.

In addition to these limitations, the snare, cripple, and burst dps mechanics through engineering highly favors the ganker or ganker wing over the individual noob or semi-noob player.

The result is a weak imitation of an AAA mmo Open environment. Asymmetric PVP is favored if not promoted by the design.

There are no PVP rewards mechanics, no ranking, no skins, no leaderboards, etc. etc. Piracy rewards are minimal other than roleplay.

This current FDEV design leads to a great deal of salt on the forum.

 

[Old Duck]

Purple hair gives me bad dreams...

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

There's dystopia and then there's a setting that just doesn't make sense.

A realistic view would be one where miners are occasionally interdicted while passing through low-sec systems, the pirates demand some of their haul, and everyone goes about their business, the economy intact.

An unrealistic view is one where anyone passing through the highest security systems in the galaxy have a 50/50 chance of getting interdicted and blown up for no reason. Where a single ton of a commodity can pay for murdering hundreds of people. Where the police completely give up on searching for you after a maximum of 20 hours.

The current system doesn't in any way discourage random ganking, but don't act like this is part of some sort of broader narrative. A universe with rules like that would very rapidly collapse entirely.

It makes perfect sense. High security is a lie to make the plebs feel better. As a CMDR, you should know better.

This is what makes Elite legitimately terrifying, or in other words, dystopian!

 

[Drelthar]

Well, you should really give 1v1s and wingfights a try, they're really different than ganking and you might find you like them, too!

(I'm teasing of course - I take your meaning)

I don't really like pre arranged PVP either.
I don't actually like 1V1 or wing fights.

I like spontaneous PvP.

But I like it to have a reason, that comes from within the game world - rather than from outside of it.

Context is everything for me.

I have absolutely no problems being attacked if it is for instance, because I am pledged to an enemy power - or, to steal my cargo (in which case, ship destruction is probably not the best plan as the cargo will go up with the ship)

Not as much of a fan of what could be literally the exact same thing happening - if it is just "because I wanna"

Also, not knowing what the context is - is effectively the same as "because I wanna" to me.
Which means in 90% of cases, I would probably need some form of communication to happen.

I've been attacked by ships because they had seen me fighting thargoids (and or, they had scanned my ship and found anti thargoid equipment fitted) - because they were in game sympathisers with the the thargoids.

This was communicated - I even turned this around by showing them I had human escape pods on board, they then attacked me later, once it wouldn't kill innocents.

There's context there - it may not be the best context in the world - but it is vastly superior to "I like to pew things"

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

And you've hit upon the crux of my inquiry: how can there be salt to mine in a game where Open mode is explicitly about the possibility of emergent PVP at any time?
…

Because PvP in this game is completely pointless, has no connection to the game world and is completely unbalanced.
This game is designed with pure PvE design in mind - gear progression and power creep. As a cherry on top of this PvE game design the NPCs are just bullet sponges with no real flight capabilities beyond circlestrafing and backwards U-Turns.
The result is that a good PvP combat ship will destroy any non-combat PvE ship if the attacking player isn‘t completely incompetent. There is no counter - just avoidance or crippling the ship used for anything that results in in-game progress (aka PvE non-combat) and that would just result in being able to flee.

Since the attacker can select the target of the attack and the attacked just has the choice between fleeing or getting blown up it just isn‘t fun for the attacked if it happens to often.

Add in that the way PvP often happens in this game - attacker just attacking weaker ships and avoiding any real opposition - a lot of players who wouldn‘t mind some “fair“ PvP or meaningful (for them) PvP just get annoyed over time.

And then there is a long history of some PvP players just doing what they can to annoy other players. In the end it‘s not about PvP, it‘s about annoying players who think they can have fun at the expense of others. Completely oblivious to the consequences of their actions.
Games don‘t work that way.

To answer your initial question:
A lot of interesting interactions can be had in this game if both sides respect each other, don‘t think that having fun at the expense of others is OK.
Being in OPEN allowed me to meet other players who became allies in my BGS endeavors. Others just provided some nice chat.
Just seeing other players makes the world less empty.

And no, I don‘t get salty about getting blown up. I just don‘t care anymore about anything related to PvP. If a ganker interdicts me in my T-7 or T-9 I don‘t even try to do anything against getting blown up - my T-X ships are designed to get blown up. It simply doesn‘t matter. It‘s meaningless and just boring.
Unsurprisingly I never got attacked in anything that looked slightly like something that could provide any hint of resistance or even danger.

All that said, enjoy the game while it‘s new to you.

 

[Bigmaec]

I had some fun today running missions in Colonia knowing that certain squadron is out for our squadron's blood.
Had a small run in with two of them, led them some thousand ls away from the star and continued my missions.
PvP is the only thing that makes Elite Dangerous unpredictable and fun for me.
Luckily there are two other modes for people to opt out of that.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

A new player here, about 6 weeks into my time in Elite. So apologies if this is repetitious, but it's something that's been on my mind.

Specifically, I'd like to ask: what kind of player interactions are you hoping to experience in Open, if not PVP combat? What are your expectations? Help me understand what you think Open is going to provide?

Now they say an Image says more than a thousand words....

In a Galaxy populated by other Players (let's call it "Open" ) this is what I expect that is not PvP :
(lots of fun memories - none of which involved PvP... Community Goals, meeting and chatting with random CMDRs, Ad-Hoc Wings, fooling around or getting a job done CoOp style)

 

[Dragsham]

There are tiers of PvP. Some choose to gank some don't. Bad guys good guys.
Open isn't wise if your hauling or some other endeavour. Let's face it most do it in solo etc.
So PvP Is a mute point. A bug bite insignificant. Noobs at deciat soon learn to play solo enroute to engineers.
It's a shame it's marginalized. Cos it's actually great fun. Duelling with wingmates non lethal to 30% etc.
2/3 of the game is unaffected by it except within a wing.
Do think with the right architecture this game would be amazing with a more realistic approach to a colonised galaxy.
An example is systems that are policed would not have pvp.
Anarchist systems would.
Pvpers make excellent mercenarys. So make content with that in mind.
Lots that can be done isn't.
That's because the vast majority don't want it.
And you have to respect that.
As to Ops post.
Pvpers are mavericks. Like to be different non conformist.
Not a sheep.
More a lion.
Lions like to hunt.

 

[Havvk]

There are tiers of PvP. Some choose to gank some don't. Bad guys good guys.
Open isn't wise if your hauling or some other endeavour. Let's face it most do it in solo etc.
So PvP Is a mute point. A bug bite insignificant. Noobs at deciat soon learn to play solo enroute to engineers.
It's a shame it's marginalized. Cos it's actually great fun. Duelling with wingmates non lethal to 30% etc.
2/3 of the game is unaffected by it except within a wing.
Do think with the right architecture this game would be amazing with a more realistic approach to a colonised galaxy.
An example is systems that are policed would not have pvp.
Anarchist systems would.
Pvpers make excellent mercenarys. So make content with that in mind.
Lots that can be done isn't.
That's because the vast majority don't want it.
And you have to respect that.
As to Ops post.
Pvpers are mavericks. Like to be different non conformist.
Not a sheep.
More a lion.
Lions like to hunt.

Except the sheep are in a different dimension and lions have run out of food and are starving due to over-hunting