Yep, no more dysfunctional than most marriages
Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand
- Thread starter Danquememe
- Start date
Ill go with this as means I dont have to write 2 pages.
Added to that, I cant blame the game for the actions of individual players, especially when looking at the history of the imbalance. If players try and exploit something that is supposed to be a safeguard then the safeguard gets removed and the game gets worse it wasnt the games fault, it was the exploiters fault. If you just want to exploit (and some do) what is the point of playing the game? I get its fun to exploit in the very short term (getting checkmate in 4 moves on your mate, using that 'no-miss' shot on goal exploit v your mate, using the guy who just crouches and spins in Streetfighter iirc - my mates 5 yo brother used to use this as it was unbeatable) but then you either show the exploit (checkmate) and the opponent knows how to avoid it, or you dont use it (spinning croucher) coz its all one sided all the time and its not actually a game or a challenge. Thats not the games fault its the players fault. I dont mind losing if Ive had a good match especially v someone of equal or just higher skill than me so I have to try, I dont want to play football against a 5yo just so I can win all the time, thats not fun to me, regardless of what it is sport, games, video games.
The first time I meet a player who doesnt have the same mindset it takes a moment to adjust is all, I still dont blame the game. Ive been playing the game for years without an issue until I bumped into this one person. Likelihood is its not the game but this player.
History of Balance:
Explo data will be saved on ship explosion so explorers in particular dont suffer from much harsher penalties than other game styles.
Suicide back to the bubble exploit.
Explo data will not be saved due to exploits
Players will get bounties for killing Cmdrs so this will encourage 'lawful' PVP groups and emergent gameplay of legitimate BH in game. We will provide the sandbox for this to happen and it will police itself probably. Players on both sides will have fun playing cops and robbers.
Gankers blow each other up for the unlimited bounties exploit.
The bounty will now be limited to 2m to discourage exploit.
We will have large expeditions in Open, record breaking ones like DW & DW2 and create great headlines for ED in the wider press.
Gankers & Griefers target them
FleetComm PG is created, explorers move to PG & Solo.
We will do Livestreams in Open, charity ones
Gankers & griefers stream snipe
All future play will be done in Solo or PG
We will have all sorts of roles including Pirates for RP
Gankers kill without reason or warning or any RP
Cmdrs log out, drop instance, wake out as soon as they see a hollow icon. Pirates dont get a chance to interract and Cmdrs miss out on RP and some fun gameplay.
Fuel Rats deliver fuel to stranded Cmdrs all over the galaxy
Gankers hold one hostage and destroy at least one Rat out in the black
Fuel Rats dont respond at all, bless the Fuel Rats they didnt give one ounce or millimetre of ground. Gankers arent important enough to interrupt their game and the game is so much better for it. This is the exception to the rule.
Spotting a pattern here? The game is designed to be self-balancing but exploiters who want short term gains just destroy the game for everyone including themselves. Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should and most people choose not to because they see it will spoil the long term game.
So no, I cant agree it is the games fault or fdevs. It is down to a tiny % of gankers who have consistently tried to find and use exploits to always have the upper hand and cheat the game and have no balance instead of just enjoying the game for what it is. You choose your own actions, you choose to exploit or not.
A counter offer - anyone can join me to seek out the lore of the galaxy and find and solve the mysteries in real time. No combat involved usually just mysteries and dark secrets in game. I always try and start at the beginning of the trail. I have about a dozen or more beginnings right now, I have no idea where they will lead. I could go straight to YT and find out, but I wont.
Not a bad idea at all. You get your fight, you demonstrate to them that they were hopelessly outclassed, you give them their Code Brown (which, in this situation as well as numerous others in game, such as almost pancaking into a planet, I personally love, the adrenaline rush is fantastic), you get a chance to offer advice, make a new friend without the salt (and, frankly, if they get salty about a repair bill back at station, then you're not likely to reach them anyway) and, finally, you might just entice a new player into open by presenting a challenge along with some friendly advice on how to face it.
I don't see the downside here, really, but maybe that's just me.
Kind of ominous trend, about only ones being exploiters aside gankers were some fake explorers.
Speaking only for myself, as one always does on these forums, and speaking as a "cautious" player who really does enjoy the thrill of Open, but doesn't enjoy the "lulz, why you so mad, noob" aspect of griefers (absolutely NOT the same as PvP'ers or gankers), I would never engage in a deliberate campaign in BGS or PP in PG or Solo, because I just feel it's not cricket since you can't be countered by other than NPCs, I'd rather leave those two aspects entirely alone than play "dirty" that way, I also have to acknowledge that I probably AM affecting at least the BGS when I unload explo-data, sell valuable goods and such, but it's not with the intent of having any sort of influence, because generally I don't give a fig's who's controlling what. With a few notable exceptions, but then it's Open time for me.
Add any other exploits and their 'rebalance' effects by all means. Exploiters are in no way exclusive to gankers. The recent Egg one was used by all types of playstyles for example. Im not even sure it has or has not been fixed. I never used it, I know mining and explorer friends that have to get an FC. Now theres FCs everywhere and that spoils the game for me (and was originally aimed at 3% ownership for this very reason)
But the trend is that exploiters have killed certain aspects of the game and a lot of that was involved with player to player interaction.
But the trend is that exploiters have killed certain aspects of the game and a lot of that was involved with player to player interaction.
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It's not about the murdering.
It's about how you can get away with it but if you so much get caught with a cargo rack and no weapons, you guys treat us like we're playing incorrectly and we are punished instead. That's B.S.
It'd be nice if the A.I. was strong like it used to be again, and there be a PROPER c&p system, because we should have PvE content that acts like PvP, so nobody has an excuse for being "ganked"
OP - You mentioned that you started the game expecting and looking for PVP. But for a period of some weeks (I dont remember exactly please do correct me as this is quite important) you didnt meet PVP players. iirc you left the new pilots area and werent allowed back in, probably before you were 'ready and wanting' to do so but still not 'unwilling' to accept this and not complaining about it. ie you would have stayed longer as that was the game at that point but you didnt complain you got denied re-entry. You then travelled and did your own thing until you got ganked one day and there we know the rest. If I missed anything or misrepresented please correct.
I think you missed out a bit because I think the new area is designed to introduce different styles and gameplay to you but maybe there should have been more of a warning or something? The effect of that was you did literally 'Blaze your own trail' as you had no guidance, no manual, just your own experience and what you could learn. In time this would have led to different engineers getting in touch in a timely fashion and finding things out for yourself, dare I say 'experiencing' it for yourself, imo the way the game is designed to be played, with everything optional and not necessary for game 'advancement', no ticking clock.
Questions?
You came into the game expecting PVP, it didnt happen immediately at all, not really 'soon' and not for some time. What did you think/make of this seeming lack of PVP before it actually happened?
Despite getting kicked out early you continued and did your own thing. What were your objectives/goals at this point? What did you think of the game at this point?
You (I think, ignore if wrong) managed to make progress and buy another ship or two. What did you think of the progression you were making? What was the point of it if you hadnt had PVP yet? What was your expectation?
After a few weeks and still no PVP, what did you think of the game as you expected? Did you still think it was a 'normal' MMO PVP type game? Were you disappointed with your purchase either way?
Did you enjoy the learning curve and improving at everything constantly? Were you able to beat elite anacondas and corvettes before meeting the gankers, ie had you progressed in combat/loadout knowledge to this level already?
Did you have any goals besides PVP or orientated around PVP? Did any of the other gameplay appeal to you?
Did you enjoy any of this natural progression?
Just wondering what your mindset/thoughts were after buying a game for PVP and for a few weeks not finding PVP? Did it change your perception of what the game 'is'? Did you wonder if it was a PVP game at all?
I think you missed out a bit because I think the new area is designed to introduce different styles and gameplay to you but maybe there should have been more of a warning or something? The effect of that was you did literally 'Blaze your own trail' as you had no guidance, no manual, just your own experience and what you could learn. In time this would have led to different engineers getting in touch in a timely fashion and finding things out for yourself, dare I say 'experiencing' it for yourself, imo the way the game is designed to be played, with everything optional and not necessary for game 'advancement', no ticking clock.
Questions?
You came into the game expecting PVP, it didnt happen immediately at all, not really 'soon' and not for some time. What did you think/make of this seeming lack of PVP before it actually happened?
Despite getting kicked out early you continued and did your own thing. What were your objectives/goals at this point? What did you think of the game at this point?
You (I think, ignore if wrong) managed to make progress and buy another ship or two. What did you think of the progression you were making? What was the point of it if you hadnt had PVP yet? What was your expectation?
After a few weeks and still no PVP, what did you think of the game as you expected? Did you still think it was a 'normal' MMO PVP type game? Were you disappointed with your purchase either way?
Did you enjoy the learning curve and improving at everything constantly? Were you able to beat elite anacondas and corvettes before meeting the gankers, ie had you progressed in combat/loadout knowledge to this level already?
Did you have any goals besides PVP or orientated around PVP? Did any of the other gameplay appeal to you?
Did you enjoy any of this natural progression?
Just wondering what your mindset/thoughts were after buying a game for PVP and for a few weeks not finding PVP? Did it change your perception of what the game 'is'? Did you wonder if it was a PVP game at all?
Yeah I suppose I get sucked into these discussions and think it's worse than it is, I've never played in open so I on ly know what I know from what I've read.
Destructoid article about Odyssey
Destructoid - which I've never heard of, but Google seemed to think I'd be interested - has an article in which a pair of Frontier developers are at pains to refute the accusation - made by, among others, me - that Odyssey is just a First Person Shooter tacked onto the existing Elite...
In that article linked there:
Players will also be able to disembark at ports. They're intended to be "social hubs where you can meet other players, find mission givers that you might not otherwise experience, and create a safe space where pilots can meet and do piloty things," according to Hughes. "The social element is important."
Safe space? Social element?
What do we think gankers will do or try to do with this new feature? Gankers, what will your intention be?
Same questions but also presuming theres some sort of journey between the hub and your ship where you may be vulnerable ie walkway to the landing pad?
SpaceDestructoid article about Odyssey
Destructoid - which I've never heard of, but Google seemed to think I'd be interested - has an article in which a pair of Frontier developers are at pains to refute the accusation - made by, among others, me - that Odyssey is just a First Person Shooter tacked onto the existing Elite...forums.frontier.co.uk
In that article linked there:
Players will also be able to disembark at ports. They're intended to be "social hubs where you can meet other players, find mission givers that you might not otherwise experience, and create a safe space where pilots can meet and do piloty things," according to Hughes. "The social element is important."
Safe space? Social element?
What do we think gankers will do or try to do with this new feature? Gankers, what will your intention be?
Same questions but also presuming theres some sort of journey between the hub and your ship where you may be vulnerable ie walkway to the landing pad?
What do we think gankers will do or try to do with this new feature? Gankers, what will your intention be?Destructoid article about Odyssey
Destructoid - which I've never heard of, but Google seemed to think I'd be interested - has an article in which a pair of Frontier developers are at pains to refute the accusation - made by, among others, me - that Odyssey is just a First Person Shooter tacked onto the existing Elite...
Cause trouble in the traditional way, of course.
But coming from my specific perspective, where PvP is a weapon in the generally BGS expressed emergent political conflicts, we'll be looking at opportunities to get at our enemies. As is proper for a ragtag group of ruffians on the outskirts of the frontier.
I certainly don't think of myself as an exploiter, but I do know that many exploiters - the kind who actually find the exploits, not the "script kiddies" who watch a YT video so they can be "OP EZ GG" grief trolls - are the type that are fascinated by how games function at their most intricate levels.
Many times, these exploiters would make excellent QA team resources, as they're literally finding all the bugs and loopholes and whatnot in the game, and ideally these should be surfaced to the development team prior to deployment to production - but of course not all bugs can be caught.
These types of things are not limited to Elite or to video games, either. Tabletop games suffer from "rules lawyers" and the constant searching for competitive advantage. The entire legal and accounting professions revolve around taking actions to their legal limits. Science is about finding out about the innermost workings of the physical world - literally trying to exploit nature for gain.
Hoping people will "just be cool" is simply naive, unfortunately. That's why the real world has laws and punishment, that's why the game world is coded to have rules - be they how the physics engine works, how the game maps are laid out, or how players can interact with one another. The developers are "god" of the world they create and have complete and total autonomy to adjust how anything and everything works, should they deem to.
In the case of Elite, we have ample evidence to suggest that ganking and other forms of "making things go wrong for other people" are the game world working literally as intended. There's nothing exploitative about that; it's "the game."
Edge cases of exploits - like the exploration data suicide exploit, etc. - point up the need of the devs to constantly monitor their game for balance. Assuming, of course, that they actually feel that the costs of doing so will be outweighed by the benefit players will derive from same.
I'm sure FDev feel like they've provided reasonable accommodation for these exploits. They understand or have decided they can't fix "everything", but they presumably feel they've addressed the most egregious. And they surely point to the various modes of play, and the use of the social features, and feel that they've provided enough supplementary tools that an individual player can tailor their experience accordingly.
So, I have to take issue with this implied equivalence of gankers = exploiters = people ruining the game. That's simply inaccurate. Ganking and other forms of "unwanted" PVP - including BGS, etc. - are very much the game being played as it is intended. The game's creator has said the same. Exploiting the game rules is a natural human reaction, and something it is the responsibility of the game developer to police. We as players can point out the exploits, document them, and describe the negative impact on our gameplay, but it's up to them - the devs - to fix the problems.
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Playing devil's advocate - and this isn't meant as an attack on you or anyone in particular:
I acknowledge that I probably am affecting other players when I blow them up, but it's not with the intent of having any sort of influence, because I generally don't pay too much attention to who or what I've targeted beyond saying "mmm tasty Anaconda."
My point, of course, is that as always these things are a matter of perspective.
Why yes, my name is Captain Obvious, how did you guess?
This brings me back to why I am so against the pve only mode: there is yes a lack of consideration for the other person who is subject to a gank style attack, AND there is the same lack of consideration for the effect on the BGS when doing most actions in a system: maybe you are ruining the carefully planned operation of a nearby player faction. This Is why I will never criticize gankers as such, although sometimes they could be less lazy in the way they go about it.Playing devil's advocate - and this isn't meant as an attack on you or anyone in particular:
I acknowledge that I probably am affecting other players when I blow them up, but it's not with the intent of having any sort of influence, because I generally don't pay too much attention to who or what I've targeted beyond saying "mmm tasty Anaconda."
My point, of course, is that as always these things are a matter of perspective.
Why yes, my name is Captain Obvious, how did you guess?
And to add to that, once you learn how to escape a gank to the point that it's muscle memory, it's almost like gankers don't exist. The only difference between players and NPC's is that I have to submit to the interdiction and make a slight effort.
It takes a bit of practice but I haven't taken a rebuy unless I allow it since I've started non PC.
My main flight sim game has been Rise of Flight and afterwards IL-2: Flying Circus, which are, ironically enough, set in the Great War (WWI). And here I am at the far other end of the technological end, doing dogfights in space.
IL-2 Flying Circus devs rolled out a damage model change a few months ago that really, really dampened enthusiasm of the playerbase. And this playerbase is already small - any given night will see only a few dozen players, if that, logged into the multiplayer servers. It's a game where you go up against literally the same opponents over and over again, and get killed by them, over and over again, until you learn and you survive. It's so tremendously much more challenging than dealing with ganking in Elite that I can't even really compare the two. This surely colors my impressions and attitudes towards same.
Anyways, dissatisfied with the choices the developers made to change the rules of that game, I looked for something else to occupy my time while they got their collective heads out of their empennage. Somehow - I think it was on Twitch or similar - I came across Elite Dangerous, a game that Steam had insisted on telling me about, repeatedly, but for whatever reason I'd ignored. I've mostly focused on historical flight sims, for whatever reason.
What sold me was when I saw footage of PVP wingfights in asteroid fields. I saw the way the ships moved with six degrees of freedom and I was fascinated. This looked like a serious flying challenge to me, and I saw that Elite had a huge playerbase compared to my historical flight sims, so I figured it would probably have a decent community to learn from. I honestly didn't pay too much attention to anything besides these facts - the whole rest of the game I understood existed, but it was mostly irrelevant to me. I wanted to do this PVP combat I'd seen. I bought the game.
It was actually only after about 3 hours of playtime that I got kicked out of the starter system. Not weeks, hours. I chose the Sidewinder with the SRV hangar, so that put me in Dromi. From Dromi I went to Matet, then I did some flying around in Matet and I believe went to the nav beacon there to shoot at NPCs. After that, I decided to see what trade was like, and I bought some agronomic treatment using the money I'd made on bounties. A whopping 2 units. Because I saw on Inara I could sell it over at Fermat City in Hollatja for a tidy profit.
That tidy profit was enough to bump me up a rank in Trade, and that was it. I was out of the starter system. I'd literally visited two ports of call in Matet, and the one where I originally spawned in Dromi. And then I was forced out and totally on my own.
As I mentioned, I used Inara to look up prices for goods, and where they could be sold. I'm extremely accustomed to relying heavily on out of game resources of all kinds to learn games. My flight sims usually have spartan, if any, tutorials, and you very much learn them by reading forums, using 3rd party resources, watching videos, etc. I am completely comfortable with that approach to gaming and it's just how I approach every game. I don't care about the story, or whatever, I am goal oriented, I figure out how to achieve my goal in the most efficient way I can, and I try to avoid ever having to reinvent the wheel.
The excitement for me in these games comes from the multiplayer interaction and the story I create for myself. The in-game story stuff is usually underwhelming in most games and I usually find it tedious and blocking from just doing what I want to do. This is why I mostly dislike singleplayer games, and the only ones I do like are typically open world, go at your own pace games with minimal constraints imposed. It's just how I'm wired.
Anyways, the next week was spent mostly in learning the basics of the game - meaning, how to fly the ships, dock manually, begin experimenting with FA off. Some real life friends also picked up the game, so there was a lot of time spent at Nav Beacons and RES, basically replicating the first steps I'd made in the game. We knew that bounty hunting was a good first step, and I used it to amass a small amount of credits - a few million or so, as I recall. I got an Eagle and loved it, and eventually got a Cobra Mk III, which I outfitted for mining - knowing from my research that this was where I could make the real money.
I also knew from that research that the FDL was "the" ship for PVP. I was watching a streamer - Brother Sabathius, highly recommended - and asked in his chat about PVP resources. He suggested the Galactic Combat Initiative Discord, which I joined straightaway. Ironically, it was shortly thereafter - within a day or less - that I was ganked for the first time. When I saw that my ganker was also a member of the GCI Discord, I realized that there was a lot of overlap between the PVP and ganking communities. I knew I'd found the right place.
So anyways, the story with ACowForAllSeasons and his helping me progress rapidly has been told elsewhere. He's become a very genuine friend, and I sincerely hope we get to meet up when COVID is over and have a beer and some pretzels together. He helped me absolutely shortcircuit the tedious parts of the game that literally hold no value to me except as hurdles to be passed towards the goal of building my PVP ships. I've now got my "meta FDL" put together and a getting it blown up on a nightly basis as I grind through the only actually challenging (for me) part of this game - "gitting gud" at PVP. I've found the PVP and ganking communities are full of interesting and helpful people, and they've made me genuinely feel at home and accepted. I've found a great game and I try to share this excitement with the other people I meet - by whatever means.
Honestly I think, as a new player, I got to PVP just about as quickly as i could, without quitting from frustration or completely hating my life. I certainly had a ton of fun doing so, and have found - and continue to find - great mentors. It's an excellent community overall. The way you engage with it is usually by getting blown up, and not caring. That's it. That's the entry fee.
edit: typos
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My position as a non PvP but open only player is the philosophical opposite of this.
Years ago I read an article about game design, in particular about computer game design and it's always and unequivocally the designer and the games fault. Here's a pertinent paragraph:-
"When a game doesn't hold up to expert play, it's degenerate in some way. There's only one good move or one good character, or one good strategy, or something like that. The game offers what appears to be a lot of fun options, but you don't actually get to do those fun options against experts, even if you are an expert too. So for this type of game, playing to win really will make it less fun, but that's not a problem with the players who are doing their best; it's a problem with the game. I wouldn't fault players here or complain to them that they are playing in a boring way. I'd complain to the game developer or play a different game."
Be interested on your take - for me it's the difference between a competitive and non-competitive player, and I don't mean that pejoratively, but it does explain the crux of the difference in attitude found here I think.
(full article here)
Tl;Dr blame the game not the player
Only one of the exploits I mentioned is a bug, the rest are exploiting game design which then means the game design gets worse.
Capped player bounties, explo data not saved - neither of these outweighs the loss of feature caused by the use of the exploit. Bounties in particular are constantly complained about. These exploits are directly responsible for removal of features or balances that did enhance the game. How do you balance the game when the same people will try to unbalance it repeatedly instead of just accepting the rules and the spirit of the rules? Its not naive, its curiosity. Why do you keep doing things that will only result in the game getting worse? Why dont you play the game as is and enjoy it for what it is?
And yes, gankers are responsible for some of the worst ones, thats how it is, its what was intended by the ganker doing that in the first place, to be the worst. You cant distance their actions from the consequences that directly followed. And Im still talking about game exploits, not bugs in the software or digging around in code. I did say, list any exploits and their consequences, theres plenty of room for the explorer and trader and miner exploiters to be admonished too if they have been responsible for lessening the game, I just cant think of as many as ganker exploits have.
I also didnt talk about PVP except in the case of stream and charity stream sniping - this happened, it wasnt explorers who did this but gankers, most people just watched or took part but gankers exploited the opportunity and the opportunity was removed from everyone to take part.
All groups exploit the game and teach their initiates to do the same (relogging, mats gathering usually and I have said they all imo spoil the game for most noobs without intending to and occasionally for everyone). Most of the exploits dont affect other people directly. The gankers in the cases I gave wanted to use the exploit directly to affect another person without any thought as to how it would affect the game, they didnt care. This means the exploit was stamped out. But the bathroom, the bath and the baby all got thrown out with the bathwater.
Capped player bounties, explo data not saved - neither of these outweighs the loss of feature caused by the use of the exploit. Bounties in particular are constantly complained about. These exploits are directly responsible for removal of features or balances that did enhance the game. How do you balance the game when the same people will try to unbalance it repeatedly instead of just accepting the rules and the spirit of the rules? Its not naive, its curiosity. Why do you keep doing things that will only result in the game getting worse? Why dont you play the game as is and enjoy it for what it is?
And yes, gankers are responsible for some of the worst ones, thats how it is, its what was intended by the ganker doing that in the first place, to be the worst. You cant distance their actions from the consequences that directly followed. And Im still talking about game exploits, not bugs in the software or digging around in code. I did say, list any exploits and their consequences, theres plenty of room for the explorer and trader and miner exploiters to be admonished too if they have been responsible for lessening the game, I just cant think of as many as ganker exploits have.
I also didnt talk about PVP except in the case of stream and charity stream sniping - this happened, it wasnt explorers who did this but gankers, most people just watched or took part but gankers exploited the opportunity and the opportunity was removed from everyone to take part.
All groups exploit the game and teach their initiates to do the same (relogging, mats gathering usually and I have said they all imo spoil the game for most noobs without intending to and occasionally for everyone). Most of the exploits dont affect other people directly. The gankers in the cases I gave wanted to use the exploit directly to affect another person without any thought as to how it would affect the game, they didnt care. This means the exploit was stamped out. But the bathroom, the bath and the baby all got thrown out with the bathwater.
I speak as a mainly (all the time really but never say never) Open mainly PVE player too.
Sandro said something like:
There are different playstyles (or wants from the community eg the PVP/griefer argument mainly) and they are all mutually exclusive but they are all perfectly valid.
So the game tries to accommodate all playstyles. The only way it doesn't is to exclude one and say we will focus on the others. I think we all know that in a money decision like that the greatest number would be PVE & co-op play, the losers would be PVP.
So how do you design a game that allows all playstyles but at the same time tries to prevent the clash? For me, ED is pretty much it, without separating players through ranks, ability, time in game, levels or some such artificial 'skill match' indicator.
But it originally had more balance and some of that has been lost to everyone because of the actions of some. A lot of that balance was intended to be the PVP/PVE mollifier but it got removed. Now the game is less balanced than it would have been and theres no obvious solution. They tried something new and it got exploited, so now its PG & Solo is the solution for the problem of:
The only good move left is to go to Solo or PG...and theres nothing wrong with that.
I haven't seen anything yet that answers the PVP/PVE clash as well as the original game design. I cant see a solution that cant get exploited and stopped. Which leaves us where we are now. What does anyone suggest is the answer, how do you balance it without it being exploitable? If there isnt a solution then maybe the exploiting should stop and the game would just be better for it? Or maybe the exploiters should be banned and we can go back to unlimited bounties?
Sandro said something like:
There are different playstyles (or wants from the community eg the PVP/griefer argument mainly) and they are all mutually exclusive but they are all perfectly valid.
So the game tries to accommodate all playstyles. The only way it doesn't is to exclude one and say we will focus on the others. I think we all know that in a money decision like that the greatest number would be PVE & co-op play, the losers would be PVP.
So how do you design a game that allows all playstyles but at the same time tries to prevent the clash? For me, ED is pretty much it, without separating players through ranks, ability, time in game, levels or some such artificial 'skill match' indicator.
But it originally had more balance and some of that has been lost to everyone because of the actions of some. A lot of that balance was intended to be the PVP/PVE mollifier but it got removed. Now the game is less balanced than it would have been and theres no obvious solution. They tried something new and it got exploited, so now its PG & Solo is the solution for the problem of:
The only good move left is to go to Solo or PG...and theres nothing wrong with that.
I haven't seen anything yet that answers the PVP/PVE clash as well as the original game design. I cant see a solution that cant get exploited and stopped. Which leaves us where we are now. What does anyone suggest is the answer, how do you balance it without it being exploitable? If there isnt a solution then maybe the exploiting should stop and the game would just be better for it? Or maybe the exploiters should be banned and we can go back to unlimited bounties?