Quince is even more broken than we tought

[Jex =TE=]

And how does that hurt you in a game where combat is highly skill based and Experience means everything. How is it an advantage for a newbie to buy an Anaconda and fly it against a 2 year veteran of the game. Unless that new person is some sort of child prodigy, then you will wipe the floor with them in almost any other combat oriented ship. Eagles withstanding.

Advantage and access to hardware are not the same thing. Just because someone can do something that you can't either by choice or lack of knowledge is not an advantage over all other players in the game. Sure they may have a specific advantage over you, but overall they have no advantage whatsoever by having a big bank balance.

I wouldn't use that as an argument. Just tell everyone to stop playing the game because playing the game gives you an advantage over other players, right?

The mere fact that someone else is playing the game right now means they're getting more credits!!! OMGZ!!!!

What we all need to do is agree when to play the game al ltogether and make sure nobody is going to places with better credit gains or someone, somewhere in the universe someone will be "taking advantage" and we couldn't possibly have that now, could we.

Also, everyone needs to stop playing the game for a few thousand hours so the people who just bought the game can catch up but prior to all this...

We need to know how a different ship is an advantage and how buying rebuys is an advantage.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Not sure if anyone is aware that these new mission mechanics (exploits!) are not limited to Quince (but probably limited to surface scan missions?). I wonder if there's an official statement from the devs whether that's a bug or the way it's meant to be? I really hope it's not the latter as this would clearly be my personal top favorite of inconsistencies and illogical nonsense in the game. :O

I still DO love the game but that's also a reason why I passionately hate certain aspects of it that really shouldn't be in the game - in *any* game.

P.S. I filed a bug report about a rather innocent situation (compared to Quince) but which points to the same broken(?) mechanics. That was a few days ago, no answer from QA support so far...

Clearly unintended due to the scan destinations being different. Pretty sure they are aware but if they can't be fixed, they have to remove or fix them.
I really like the idea of things popping up if a planet is scanned, especially regards exploration but it's not working right at this time.
Maybe you need a DDS to find these things or I'd love a surface scanner you can track to source...maybe a bit of both. Different signals for different things. But maybe something beyond jump and honk.
Maybe even something as simple as a resource multiplier on some planets...may not just be generic but rares related. Handy in the black.

 

[Zambrick]

And how does that hurt you in a game where combat is highly skill based and Experience means everything?
How is it an advantage for a newbie to buy an Anaconda and fly it against a 2 year veteran of the game? Unless that new person is some sort of child prodigy, then you will wipe the floor with them in almost any other combat oriented ship. Eagles withstanding.

Advantage and access to hardware are not the same thing. Just because someone can do something that you can't either by choice or lack of knowledge is not an advantage over all other players in the game. Sure they may have a specific advantage over you, but overall they have no advantage whatsoever by having a big bank balance.

Once all of your personal perceived slights and non exploits are all closed, then there will be no way to advance in the game. Just because you dont or cant or wont use lucrative methods to earn money is your own fault.

Real Exploits of the past.

Unlimited Bounty trading.
Being Able to Sell mission haulage for a profit in same station.
Being able to pick up more rare goods than possible due to mode hopping.
Draconis Skimmer Missions.

Those 4 Exploits alone account for 95% of your in game billionaires. By comparison your focus on Quince and the profits that can be gotten are just a tiny drop in the bucket in comparison to the 4 I listed. The Money you can make at Quince is a joke in comparison to the rare goods mod hopping exploit. A round trip of 100lys used to be able to net you 50 million plus. So in an hours time you could make 150 to 250 mil no problem.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

personally i think people are focusing too much on whether its an advantage or not. <shrugs>

surely it comes down to is it working in a manner which makes sense, and is it working in such a way as Frontier advertised it would.

IF the game is working as Frontier intended from the start, IF it is logical and consistent and is an example of the complex economy we were promised then imo it doesnt matter if there is an advantage or not.

IF however it is and an example of where the mission generators are blatantly not complex enough to take into account pretty obvious "gotyas" then imo it is broken and needs to be fixed.

its either working as Frontier intended and therefore ok, or its not and should be looked at...


everything else is just fluff imo.

As I have said, all these things, not just quince, spoil the game for me personally, but it is not because of jealousy, its nothing to do with anyone else.... in the same way that if racing games do not have good corner cutting penalties or allow you to skip entire parts of the track without any form of punishment annoy the hell out of me, or where you can exploit forza horizon 3 by beaching your car on rail way lines to get insane scores..........

 

[Herbrand]

And how does that hurt you in a game where combat is highly skill based and Experience means everything. How is it an advantage for a newbie to buy an Anaconda and fly it against a 2 year veteran of the game. Unless that new person is some sort of child prodigy, then you will wipe the floor with them in almost any other combat oriented ship. Eagles withstanding.

Advantage and access to hardware are not the same thing. Just because someone can do something that you can't either by choice or lack of knowledge is not an advantage over all other players in the game. Sure they may have a specific advantage over you, but overall they have no advantage whatsoever by having a big bank balance.

Ok, I give up.

 

[XW_Ziggy]

Credits don't buy skill.
Credits don't win the game.
Stop crying about credits.

100% agree.

Grinding credits is tedious and time-consuming; Not everyone has the 40-hours a week free to put into Elite and what's wrong with a shortcut to reduce tedium so you can spend time doing what you want to anyway?

If someone wants to play in a way that's inefficient for earning credits, then that's their problem and possibly a reason to argue with FD about how that type of gameplay isn't adequately rewarded0; The rest of us will happily get rich as quickly and easily as possible so that we can afford that thing we want/need and spend more time playing the game the way we want to.

 

[Deadspin]

Look, I don't think I can put it any clearer than how I did. Those specific examples do not change the general validity of my comments.

Because money allow for rebuys and bigger ships? Or did I miss the /s somewhere.

Having the fat wallet to back up the lack of experience doesn't necessarily translate into having an advantage over anyone. I could very likely destroy a newbie anaconda with a sidewinder and not break a sweat. Of course, I say very likely because I've never done it, but taking down the shields and power plant of a player who doesn't know very well how to manage pips or positioning is not a hard prospect. That's Elite Combat 101.

it depends if you are farming in a res or bounty hunting.. but i take your point.

that said, i have seen some of them go up to 40 pirates.

man, my last binge was something like 92 pirates. Now that took a couple of hours. The system also had no RES, which made it a bit tedious.

Stop focusing on who or who not gets an advantage. Not that I would disagree but that's not the crucial point. It's simply a broken game mechanic in the first place and destroys any possible lore. That we already got quite a lot of such nonsense doesn't mean we need even more of it.

The entire mission system destroys lore because it's built like a placeholder. Arguing lore is worthless here as Frontier plays around with their own Lore like a child with a basket full of legos.

I'll likely never get to see the Sol system, even though I think it would be cool to see how it's represented in the game firsthand. It's not worth diminishing what drives me and I find fun about this game though.

As someone who's had access to Sol since launch, you're not missing anything. It's interesting to see Mars as a green planet like Earth but outside of that there's nothing else to see unless you really really really want to go check out the probes.

 

[Deadspin]

personally i think people are focusing too much on whether its an advantage or not. <shrugs>

surely it comes down to is it working in a manner which makes sense, and is it working in such a way as Frontier advertised it would.

IF the game is working as Frontier intended from the start, IF it is logical and consistent and is an example of the complex economy we were promised then imo it doesnt matter if there is an advantage or not.

IF however it is and an example of where the mission generators are blatantly not complex enough to take into account pretty obvious "gotyas" then imo it is broken and needs to be fixed.

its either working as Frontier intended and therefore ok, or its not and should be looked at...


everything else is just fluff imo.

As I have said, all these things, not just quince, spoil the game for me personally, but it is not because of jealousy, its nothing to do with anyone else.... in the same way that if racing games do not have good corner cutting penalties or allow you to skip entire parts of the track without any form of punishment annoy the hell out of me, or where you can exploit forza horizon 3 by beaching your car on rail way lines to get insane scores..........

I don't think Frontier actually can fix the mission system, at least not without having to completely recode the BGS as well.

For example, think of systems where these missions are offered as well but are not in the same abundance. Now think back to when Frontier nerfed long-range smuggling due to the outcry over the perceived overpayments given there. Not only did they nerf the payouts on Robigo smuggling, but that single change to the mission metrics changed smuggling across the entire bubble.

It seems to me that everything is tied together and that changing any one little thing is actually a much larger and more complex task than we imagine.

 

[ArchEmperor]

Excerpt from "13 Jumps to Quince"

"I was sitting in my pilot seat, just watching the last unexplored astronomical object closing in. I did not think about much, and slowly fell into meditation by accident. I found myself slowly going into a trance, daydreaming.
Suddenly, it all become so bright. I was no longer in my pilot seat, but in a chair in front of a screen in some dream or parallell universe. I was no longer a pilot, but a rich super intelligent being just wasting his life away, playing a game.
When I focused my eyes to the very very narrow bandwidth of this species, I saw that it was a game that slightly resembled my real universe, as if I was piloting my spaceship in this game instead of really being there.

It was all so confusing to me. "Is this another reality?", I thought to myself. I left the chair and went through some passage ways and saw a big door. A beautiful door, like the ancient days, made of some organic material. I really believe I saw real wood for the first time in my entire life. I felt the handle. It was made of some metallic yellowish metal mix. It felt cool to the touch. I opened the door and entered into the world outside, and it was all biological. There was birds in the trees and it was cold, but sunny. It was all so wonderful. I saw something that resembled a loading vehicle and a spaceship all in one. It had wheels and looked like a big sleek personal SRV. It was so weird. Everything was so beautiful. Gravity felt like the perfect 1g. And I went for a stroll.

Time went by and I experienced that world for a while. But I finally returned to the house from whence I came. I entered the house and walked through the passage ways and entered the final room where my chair sat empty in front of the screen that still showed the game which was my reality. I sat down staring at the screen and just started to dream again. My mind started to meditate just as before and everything went dark. I woke up and looked around in my spaceship. I was back and everything was just a dream. I looked at the HUD and saw that I had passed the unexplored astronomical object and was now 0.20ly away form it. I made the loop of shame, but realized that it was no longer unexplored. It was an old planet, once ELW, but since long destroyed by the species that once lived there. I felt sorry for them, but threw the thought away, as I entered my next target and looked at the navigation panel reading: 13 jumps to Quince. Money awaits."

 

[DaveB]

Do you happen to know trade routes in the bubble like this, or are they only outside?

Been flying around systems, currently at barnard's star trying to find good ones, but just can't find ones that are nearly as lucrative as that :s

Yeah yeah, it's o-topic question I know, but there's nothing more to be said about Quince now, those who dislike it will not change minds and continue to be negative about it, those who like it will just keep using it.

I typically avoid A <-> B trading, trying to locate runs that are at least A->B->C->A but ideally around 5-6 stops rather than just 3... In the first place these are not easily findable by using the 3rd party tools (it can be done with a lot of time and effort, but I've found prospecting for them in game to be quicker and more fun than sitting there flying my browser not my ship) so once you've found one it's pretty much "yours" and since it doesn't show up on the 3rd party tools it doesn't attract pirates as much. A loop like that is usually only about two or three circuits per hour if it has 4-6 legs, but can easily pull in 50-100 k per ton of cargo capacity on each loop. In the Python I am currently spending most of my time in, hauling 228t of cargo, that's between 11.5M/hr (50k/ton/loop, 2 loops per hour) on a mediocre one and 68.5M/hr (100k/to/loop, 3 lops per hour) on a fairly "hot" one. I've a couple of serious "honey holes" that when the BGS is obliging and flips a couple of systems into the right states (or if I "help" a bit ) can beat that by a significant amount and have always been as good or better than whatever "credit exploit" folks are praising or vilifying at the time - needless to say, even though I don't use those a lot I won't be posting any details of where they are or which states to poke in the BGS to make 'em work.... They're MINE, Preciousssss...... gollum... gollum..

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

And how does that hurt you in a game where combat is highly skill based and Experience means everything?
How is it an advantage for a newbie to buy an Anaconda and fly it against a 2 year veteran of the game? Unless that new person is some sort of child prodigy, then you will wipe the floor with them in almost any other combat oriented ship. Eagles withstanding.

Advantage and access to hardware are not the same thing. Just because someone can do something that you can't either by choice or lack of knowledge is not an advantage over all other players in the game. Sure they may have a specific advantage over you, but overall they have no advantage whatsoever by having a big bank balance.

Once all of your personal perceived slights and non exploits are all closed, then there will be no way to advance in the game. Just because you dont or cant or wont use lucrative methods to earn money is your own fault.

Real Exploits of the past.

Unlimited Bounty trading.
Being Able to Sell mission haulage for a profit in same station.
Being able to pick up more rare goods than possible due to mode hopping.
Draconis Skimmer Missions.

Those 4 Exploits alone account for 95% of your in game billionaires. By comparison your focus on Quince and the profits that can be gotten are just a tiny drop in the bucket in comparison to the 4 I listed. The Money you can make at Quince is a joke in comparison to the rare goods mod hopping exploit. A round trip of 100lys used to be able to net you 50 million plus. So in an hours time you could make 150 to 250 mil no problem.

You put two players at the same starting point.
One uses unintended exploits and ends up in a super ship with shield boosters up the wazoo who will eventually get away because they pretty much can't be killed.
The other guy, plays the game as normal, tries to earn a crust and slowly make their way up the ladder.
Who dies if they meet?
Who is less likely to die.
Who is less likely to be able to afford the rebuy?

So, you tell me, is that balanced...?
You're answering in extremes to prove your point but that is not always the case.

Your comment about not using exploits and the only way to advance is to use them is pure nonsense. What you're basically saying is that players can't advance as quickly as others have done, and by choice by playing the game as intended. So, everyone has to do the same as the exploiters to validate their existence...because that would be fair except you have the advantage of experience. Selfish...and nothing to do with trying to maintain a level playing field. Learning process also nerfed because of over-confidence and possibility of being put back to square one and perma-rage quit. Yeah, good for the player base that is.

You seem to be presenting that I have a personal agenda in this but I'm only interested in what is fair for all players, and not those only interested in exploiting their way to glory. Players can still make money in this game without exploiting anything, the players who choose to use these things lack the patience to actually learn how the game should work without these things, then tend to complain there is no content because they bypassed it because they didn't have to learn anything about the game. Pretty much endemic on these forums.

If it's unintended, it needs to go.

 

[Deadspin]

You put two players at the same starting point.
One uses unintended exploits and ends up in a super ship with shield boosters up the wazoo who will eventually get away because they pretty much can't be killed.
The other guy, plays the game as normal, tries to earn a crust and slowly make their way up the ladder.
Who dies if they meet?
Who is less likely to die.
Who is less likely to be able to afford the rebuy?

Invalid, here's why:

1: Player 1's skills are no better (actually they're likely worse) than Player 2's.
2: Due to both player's inexperience they are likely to come out poorly fit for combat.
3: You cannot exploit your way into an Engineered ship.
4: You cannot exploit your way into better flying skills.

The only point that's valid in your example is the rebuy, which gives neither player the advantage. What if the last stations they docked at were 30-40ly away? Player A is going to be long gone before player B can get back to the fight, likely due to boredom.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I don't think Frontier actually can fix the mission system, at least not without having to completely recode the BGS as well.

For example, think of systems where these missions are offered as well but are not in the same abundance. Now think back to when Frontier nerfed long-range smuggling due to the outcry over the perceived overpayments given there. Not only did they nerf the payouts on Robigo smuggling, but that single change to the mission metrics changed smuggling across the entire bubble.

It seems to me that everything is tied together and that changing any one little thing is actually a much larger and more complex task than we imagine.

I think you are onto the meat of the problem here...... but if this is true.. and it may be, you are saying if they pull 1 thread the whole yarn comes unravelled........ then this is terrifying imo as it means we can NEVER realistically hope to get the complex missions etc that many of us wish for.

it also shows a catastrophic lack of foresight when FD 1st began building these systems that they did not put key points for all the different mission types, or even sub divisions of the same kind of mission types, so that they could meddle with one without touching the others.

it sounds almost like a serial circuit compared with a parallel one...... there is a reason i threw away all my old xmas tree lights

I am not a programmer, but from a pure design concept point of view this should not have been rocket science to think about this stuff from the get go.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Invalid, here's why:

1: Player 1's skills are no better (actually they're likely worse) than Player 2's.
2: Due to both player's inexperience they are likely to come out poorly fit for combat.
3: You cannot exploit your way into an Engineered ship.
4: You cannot exploit your way into better flying skills.

The only point that's valid in your example is the rebuy, which gives neither player the advantage. What if the last stations they docked at were 30-40ly away? Player A is going to be long gone before player B can get back to the fight, likely due to boredom.

Okay, let's simplify it, even if I do know that those of an exploitative mindset where doing that kinda thing which others would be clueless about. And remember, not all visit these forums or any others. Engineers were exploited, common knowledge.

Bigger, or more ships, more A rated upgrades quicker, more guns, more armour, less chance of dying.
That's enough of an advantage to make a big difference.
I guess people forget the basics because they never had to deal with them.

 

[Deadspin]

Okay, let's simplify it, even if I do know that those of an exploitative mindset where doing that kinda thing which others would be clueless about. And remember, not all visit these forums or any others.

Bigger, or more ships, more A rated upgrades quicker, more guns, more armour, less chance of dying.
That's enough of an advantage to make a big difference.

Better gas mileage, better safety features, more power, etc..

..all of that means nothing if I suck at driving cars to begin with and still need practice.

 

[Crash1099]

Okay, let's simplify it, even if I do know that those of an exploitative mindset where doing that kinda thing which others would be clueless about. And remember, not all visit these forums or any others.

Bigger, or more ships, more A rated upgrades quicker, more guns, more armour, less chance of dying.
That's enough of an advantage to make a big difference.

Not really....Even with the best equipment a good cmdr can wipe any person that does not know how to manage pips. The only benefit is more credits for rebuys.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Better gas mileage, better safety features, more power, etc..

..all of that means nothing if I suck at driving cars to begin with and still need practice.

That's not the point. You seem to have missed what it's like to start from nothing.
Not that it would surprise if you fast tracked your way.
And that's the disconnect.
Exploiters will always exploit anything in the game but when it makes no sense then it needs fixed.
And just because players have used these things in the past, of which many have been fixed, does not validate the use of these things.
So, if broken, they need fixed, period.

- - - Updated - - -

Not really....Even with the best equipment a good cmdr can wipe any person that does not know how to manage pips. The only benefit is more credits for rebuys.

Say that to inexperienced commanders.
Say that to the PvP commanders who fast tracked all their materials through exploits.
Say that to the CMDR in Open who has had to work their way up the hard way only to run into some who exploited their way to the best stuff.

This is why these things need fixed.
I'm really surprised that there is so much adversity in suggesting that when something is broken, it should be fixed.

 

[DaveB]

That's not the point. You seem to have missed what it's like to start from nothing.
Not that it would surprise if you fast tracked your way.
And that's the disconnect.
Exploiters will always exploit anything in the game but when it makes no sense then it needs fixed.
And just because players have used these things in the past, of which many have been fixed, does not validate the use of these things.
So, if broken, they need fixed, period.

Sure, if they are broken, they should be fixed - but at the same time if I can, by dint of my own persistence in thoroughly researching the trade environment, make the same kind or better cr/hr as an "exploiter" does (and yes, that includes "starting from nothing" - you only need to "strike it rich" once and you're set) I can certainly understand FD putting those fixes at a way lower priority than something that is more game-breaking than "Joe over there has more credits than me.. I wonder if he earned them honestly?"

 

[biohazard15]

Ah, the good old Quince, where billions were made. And still are, judging by this thread.

Well, don't just stand there reading all this silly rattle. Go to Quince and make some money while it lasts! And Imperial rank, of course. And grab some useful data like IED, ESED, AEC and occasional CIF in the process. Take note of HIP 69328 - there's a neutron star awfully close to entry point that can considerably speed up your trip there and back.

And of course, ignore all these "It's exploit!" cries. Or even better:
- Fly past them in your shiny new Cutter (or Anaconda, or Corvette, or whatever you like to fly)
- Roll down respective side window (note: it is strongly recommended to put on your helmet before doing that)
- Put your respective arm outside and extend it towards them, palm up, fist closed
- Extend your middle finger

 

[Crash1099]

That's not the point. You seem to have missed what it's like to start from nothing.
Not that it would surprise if you fast tracked your way.
And that's the disconnect.
Exploiters will always exploit anything in the game but when it makes no sense then it needs fixed.
And just because players have used these things in the past, of which many have been fixed, does not validate the use of these things.
So, if broken, they need fixed, period.

- - - Updated - - -



Say that to inexperienced commanders.
Say that to the PvP commanders who fast tracked all their materials through exploits.
Say that to the CMDR in Open who has had to work their way up the hard way only to run into some who exploited their way to the best stuff.

This is why these things need fixed.
I'm really surprised that there is so much adversity in suggesting that when something is broken, it should be fixed.

You seem so worried about how others play the game and make credits. Go outside relax and not worry about others. It is just a game.