[rant] Stop equipping gimballed pulse laser fighters.

[GoldenSilver484]

On one hand I agree with OP on how useless, literally everything other than Fixed Beam is on Fighters, especially with AI crew.

On the other hand, why should anyone care, since you can't engineer those fighters, they do tiny poop for damage, frankly, with any loadout, especially compared to your medium combat ship, that dishes out about 100 more DPS on average. So use whatever you like, it really doesn't make any difference at all.

So if one has a fighter hangar in his ship, that means this someone just thinks it's cool that some Fighter is flying alongside of them, and that's it. This hangar weights a lot and is utterly useless in any combat, even lowest PVE. Dunno where people getting idea that AI crew is accurate or good. It takes them eternity to kill even smallest ships, can't evade properly, can't shake aggro, and have extremely suboptimal flight routines. Like if target has 1-3% hull left, and fighter lost shield, it will start circling and regenerating shield instead of finishing off target, which usually means that enemy ship will regen it's own shield and they will take another eternity to duke it out 1v1... While I can rip them to pieces in same Taipan in under a minute, considering I can't either fly or shoot fixed properly. That, plus you have to babysit these NPCs so much if you not want them to just kill themselves left and right. That being said, I'm running with my Elite AI for a couple of years at least. Also to mention how many times my crewman almost got my invincible mothership (G5 Krait II) got almost killed by some regular pirate Pythons or freaking Asps... I really don't understand how is it even possible? No idea why some say AI crew is actually good or near accurate? Did you guys ever fought in SLF yourself to compare?

Sorry for the rant, I needed to vent, but all I said is still true.

I have a completely different experience with my SLF, both when I fly it or when my Elite pilot does.

Having a extra huge beam laser that can either distract a large target so I can get right up on top of it and melt it or send after a target's wingmate/SLF so I can concentrate on the main ship, more than makes up for the 10% I need to pay my pixel pilot.

When chose to fly the SLF I'm normally in a purpose-built Anaconda that has 5 medium LR plasma slug railguns, a huge and two small thermal vent beams, with a 2.1k mj bi-weave shield backed by about 4.5k of hull and MRPs

Half the time I simply orbit the fight, watching an aimbotted WMD rip apart entire fleets with a single button press.

 

[Rock Hunter]

The poles are melting.

We should probably ask the czechs to pop next door, open a window and get some air in.

 

[CMDR DragonHorn]

Now look at how much money they have earned from you... I found that my elite npc had taken 1.5bn and they were fired on the spot

Please don't remind me... And no, I can't fire him, because not only I suffered long and hard to rank him up from harmless to elite, but also spent several hours in crew lounge "roulette" to draw someone that doesn't look like an abomination, fresh from radioactive cloning container, and also has a voice that doesn't make me want to stab myself in the ear, which took me another few hours taking nice looking ones outside of station and run them through command drill. I just won't be able to take it if I lose him. Few others were eaten by Goids. Still miss one guy in particular...

 

[Susanna]

Please don't remind me... And no, I can't fire him, because not only I suffered long and hard to rank him up from harmless to elite, but also spent several hours in crew lounge "roulette" to draw someone that doesn't look like an abomination, fresh from radioactive cloning container, and also has a voice that doesn't make me want to stab myself in the ear, which took me another few hours taking nice looking ones outside of station and run them through command drill. I just won't be able to take it if I lose him. Few others were eaten by Goids. Still miss one guy in particular...

But the benefits they offer are marginal at best? Why even bother with one? Like you, I ranked a harmless npc up to elite, but had no issues about firing them forth with. Never looked at a SLF since!

 

[CMDR DragonHorn]

But the benefits they offer are marginal at best? Why even bother with one? Like you, I ranked a harmless npc up to elite, but had no issues about firing them forth with. Never looked at a SLF since!

I just enjoy having SLF with me. Carrier is my favorite archetype of ship in most space themed games, so couldn't go past it. Still dreaming that FD will allow us to launch 2 at the same time. Then maybe I finally get some use out of Vette, which I taken out of Station just twice at best.

 

[SoulTechnology]

What if, maybe, just maybe, they equip gimbals on their fighers because they want to fight IN them and don't plan to use an NPC (or you) to fly them?
Many people can't or don't want to use fixed weapons for various legitimate reasons.

I think it would be best for the game if they did what they want and you stopped being offended by it.

Theres other gimballed weaponry then the pulse lasers, heck i think theres a beam one with heatsyncs. Pop a heatsync and you have inifnite beaming for 10 seconds + your regular capacitor. I think a good amount of the pilots who search to join cew and fly fighters can manage fixed weaponry tho.

And i did say its a mindless rant yo. Never implied i was legitimatly offended people use these. I will admit im slightly annoyed when joining peoples crews and they got a twin fighter bay and both equipped fighters are gimballed pulse whatevers

What fighters would you like to see then? Is the fixed beam Taipan good? Or a plasma Condor better? My dangerous pilot misses most of the shot with the plasma repeater. Seems only to be better on paper.

As someone who joins crews, literally anything else. Personal favorites are the gaurdian gauss fighter, or the imperial one with fixed beams. Pulse lasers just drain to much capacitor for the damage they do and as i can use fixed, gimbals are just a dmaage reduction in my mind. (but again, use whatever, maybe dont carry 2 of the same if you have a twin hanger tho)

For AI, only the elite AI seem to be particularly accurate with twin plasmas (gaurdian plasma have a higher velcoty = easier to aim tho) in which they're devistaing. Anything above harmless can aim everything else it seems.

Taipan seems better for newer player pilots or AI in CGs (as they can eat a railgun shot and not instantly die). Gaurdian ones are always a fun treat (plasma looks cool, railgun is the best out there, shotgun is just insain DPS in the right hands if your willing to rearm the fighter every 2 kills). Imperial one rewards good pilots with the better manoverability, and federal condor sits in the middle, but abit more towards the manouverable imperial fighter.

 

[JTFireblaze]

I just enjoy having SLF with me. Carrier is my favorite archetype of ship in most space themed games, so couldn't go past it. Still dreaming that FD will allow us to launch 2 at the same time. Then maybe I finally get some use out of Vette, which I taken out of Station just twice at best.

I mean, you can launch 2 fighters if you have a friend in multicrew....

But yeah, whatever balance reasoning for not allowing a second NPC fighter shouldn't even be a concern anymore. Engineering outclasses fighters anyway, so why not allow us to deploy both. Credits are easy enough to gain that I couldn't a hoot about the extra crew pricing.

Unless it's that lag issue again.

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

I don’t use gimbal-equipped fighters, but not because you said so.

I agree that fixed are better but I can see why some CMDRs would go gimballed. A lot of players don't like fixed. A while back, if I had a Class 6 SLF bay, I'd buy one fixed SLF and one gimballed, so other CMDRs could choose which one they wanted to use.

I’ve just realised I completely and unashamedly lied I do take gimballed fighters whenever I’ve got the luxury of two in the hangar, like you said. I’ve never used multicrew, but it was always with that in mind for any of my squadron mates.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I think that's harsh. In many games AI are super bad, so they need all the help they can get. In ED, the AI is very accurate, but not everyone know that. Ironically, it's not intuitive.

There is a difference between pathfinding and decision making and snapping to a taget. The latter is much easier to achieve.

 

[Erei]

There is a difference between pathfinding and decision making and snapping to a taget. The latter is much easier to achieve.

And you'd be surprised on how many AI in videogame try to lead with hitscan weapon (and obviously miss). Also, most of them have an innate penalty with hitscan ("miss chance" or RoF), so the player is not at a massive disadvantage (and have much less penalty with non hitscan). And then we have the under the hood calculation "ping" for the AI to aim (too often, and your FPS drops massively, not often enough and the AI can't hit s***).

I mean, for fun, when X4 was launched, the turret AI checked the target every one second or so. Meaning they couldn't hit anything that was moving. Hitscan or not.


I would also like to add that traditionally, hitscan weapons are "nerfed" in many aspect to keep non hitscan weapon competitive. DPS, range, heat mechanic, you name it. And usually, the AI is much better with a high DPS weapon than an hitscan one (while it tends to be the opposite for the player). This is simply because the AI have no trouble adjusting aim and properly lead target.
In ED, the AI with non hitscan miss a lot, and they are not that much better to begin with (they also use specific fighter weapon we don't use on ship). Eventually, hitscan win the effective DPS race.


I know having real guide on fighters for ED is very difficult to find. At best you have guess, like DTEA, who tested them a bit, but didn't have nearly enough test to be accurate (and it's all feeling). Not blaming him, he was not going to do a hundred test on the same target for each fighter.
I know I struggled to find good info, and even then, I hear conflicting reports. Some claim the guardian fighters with the railgun are super strong, others swear by the MC, and a lot use the fixed beam.

Going the "lol stoopid" road is silly, considering the topic have yet to find very clear answers, and they are hard to find.

 

[SoulTechnology]

Getting abit more seriouse about this as a discussion.

Yea, 'detialed information' is pretty hard to find for fighters. I would assume it has to do with minor AI tweaks every few updates for the general combat AI also effecting your fighter + different behaviours for different ranks + all the different fighters would make testing a nightmare. I personally just go off my experience as ive been either flying my fighter or flying with an AI fighter since the beta for SLFs and there release (and sadly lost my elite pilot a week before the update where you can buy back pilots :'( )

To be broad, I definitly think every fighter (even the garbage i was ranting about in the OP) has a place, its just equipping the right fighter for the purpose you need it for. I also think there a worthy addition to any ship that can fit them, but usually not in the bigest size you can fit (I fit a size 6 hanger when i can, but rarely go over). Well, exept the AX tiapan. Its just a reduced DPS multigun condor vs non AX targets, and fighters are pretty useless in AX combat as the shield penetrating aimbot thargoid rounds dont give you many options. I will admit your better off shoving a class5 hull reinforcement in whatever slot you have a hanger bay for AX.

Definitly tho, with this lack of sorted information, keep trying new fighters weather you fly them or let the AI do it. If you have a class 6 or 7 hanger bay then have 2 different fighters for veriety (espeshally if your opening up multicrew matchmaking). Also, bind a button to order a fighter to attack target and dock. Super satisfying telling a fighter AI to attack the weaker of a wing of 2, and by the time you kill the bigger ship your AI has killed the wingmate.

 

[lysan]

On one hand I agree with OP on how useless, literally everything other than Fixed Beam is on Fighters, especially with AI crew.

On the other hand, why should anyone care, since you can't engineer those fighters, they do tiny poop for damage, frankly, with any loadout, especially compared to your medium combat ship, that dishes out about 100 more DPS on average. So use whatever you like, it really doesn't make any difference at all.

So if one has a fighter hangar in his ship, that means this someone just thinks it's cool that some Fighter is flying alongside of them, and that's it. This hangar weights a lot and is utterly useless in any combat, even lowest PVE. Dunno where people getting idea that AI crew is accurate or good. It takes them eternity to kill even smallest ships, can't evade properly, can't shake aggro, and have extremely suboptimal flight routines. Like if target has 1-3% hull left, and fighter lost shield, it will start circling and regenerating shield instead of finishing off target, which usually means that enemy ship will regen it's own shield and they will take another eternity to duke it out 1v1... While I can rip them to pieces in same Taipan in under a minute, considering I can't either fly or shoot fixed properly. That, plus you have to babysit these NPCs so much if you not want them to just kill themselves left and right. That being said, I'm running with my Elite AI for a couple of years at least. Also to mention how many times my crewman almost got my invincible mothership (G5 Krait II) got almost killed by some regular pirate Pythons or freaking Asps... I really don't understand how is it even possible? No idea why some say AI crew is actually good or near accurate? Did you guys ever fought in SLF yourself to compare?

Sorry for the rant, I needed to vent, but all I said is still true.

Well that’s all before FDEV nerfed the heck out of them, in beta along long time ago they were good, but then the salt flow and, well here we are.

we can’t have nice things because of the ....

 

[Erei]

I love carrier and fighters in any space game, when I can. So obviously I play combat ship with a hangar bay. But I find the damage of the fighters lacking. I wish we could launch 2 of them (ai controlled) with the upgrade hangar bay.

Some day I'll test the railgun guardian one, but I'm a bit burned out from the guardian grind ATM.

 

[SoulTechnology]

Well, exept the AX tiapan. Its just a reduced DPS multigun condor vs non AX targets, and fighters are pretty useless in AX combat as the shield penetrating aimbot thargoid rounds dont give you many options. I will admit your better off shoving a class5 hull reinforcement in whatever slot you have a hanger bay for AX.

Have to correct myself here. From further faffing about, I guess you could consider it a tradeoff between damage with the miltigun condor vs the extra HP of the taipan. The AX multis (dunno if it was a update or bad experience from before) do an acceptable amount of hull damage compared to other fighters now.

 

[Ted Striker]

I keep an F63 with multicannons and a Trident in my corvette. Not sure why I insist on the Trident, maybe because it was such a pain to unlock. Before the Trident it was a Taipan.

That little multicannon SLF shreds.

 

[Chaparral]

Guardian Lance Rail fighter for the win every time. AI with rails is always OP.

 

[Erei]

AI with rails is always OP.
View attachment 225662

Yeah but those are guardian rail, which, if I'm not mistaken, only do thermal damage, and not as much damage as regular ones.

I heard good things about those rail tho. might test someday.

 

[Amanojaku]

And you'd be surprised on how many AI in videogame try to lead with hitscan weapon (and obviously miss). Also, most of them have an innate penalty with hitscan ("miss chance" or RoF), so the player is not at a massive disadvantage (and have much less penalty with non hitscan). And then we have the under the hood calculation "ping" for the AI to aim (too often, and your FPS drops massively, not often enough and the AI can't hit s***).

I mean, for fun, when X4 was launched, the turret AI checked the target every one second or so. Meaning they couldn't hit anything that was moving. Hitscan or not.


I would also like to add that traditionally, hitscan weapons are "nerfed" in many aspect to keep non hitscan weapon competitive. DPS, range, heat mechanic, you name it. And usually, the AI is much better with a high DPS weapon than an hitscan one (while it tends to be the opposite for the player). This is simply because the AI have no trouble adjusting aim and properly lead target.
In ED, the AI with non hitscan miss a lot, and they are not that much better to begin with (they also use specific fighter weapon we don't use on ship). Eventually, hitscan win the effective DPS race.


I know having real guide on fighters for ED is very difficult to find. At best you have guess, like DTEA, who tested them a bit, but didn't have nearly enough test to be accurate (and it's all feeling). Not blaming him, he was not going to do a hundred test on the same target for each fighter.
I know I struggled to find good info, and even then, I hear conflicting reports. Some claim the guardian fighters with the railgun are super strong, others swear by the MC, and a lot use the fixed beam.

Going the "lol stoopid" road is silly, considering the topic have yet to find very clear answers, and they are hard to find.

Imo it depends on your ship build. If your using a ton of thermal, a SLF with a MC is probably the way to go. If you're a big fan of Tod "The Kinetic Meta" McQuinn, a SLF with beams might be more useful. If you don't run PDTs, a SLF with one can provide you and your Crew with an extra layer of defense. The Guardian Lance is good for NPCs because they rarely miss with rails, but it has no utility mount. From my personal experience in CZs the Lance doesn't last as long because of it, even though it's doing decent damage.

SLFs tend to be more balanced than "normal" ships. Probably because they can't be engineered.

 

[CMDR Buy Arx]

The problem isn't what fighters people casually chuck into their holds.

The problem is the utterly barebones and lacklustre multicrew matching "system".

Obviously what any half-decent game would have implemented is something that vaguely resembles a lobby system, even if it's just a scrollable list of anonymised commanders with a simple indication of which ship they are flying, whether their loadouts support a gunner position and which fighters they have equipped.

But no, this is Frontier, so we make sure that the only way to not get instanced seven times in a row with that guy who has gone AFK in deep space in a Python with no weapons installed is to block them permanently. Obviously if I'm driving a Type 10 covered in turrets which has two different flavours of fighter available and I'm hoping people will drop in to pilot them, it's perfectly reasonable for me to have to wait for literally ever while everyone else in the universe is forced to connect over and over and over to that one guy in an Adder.

Let's not bother to mention the many, many other multicrew bugs and annoyances, since they have been mentioned a thousand times on these forums, the bug report tracker and at least seven flavours of social media over multiple years to absolutely no avail whatsoever.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Over all the years of SLF employment (incl. Guardian SLFs), I've always returned to a plain Taipan w/ fixed Beams.
Solid DPS, immune to Chaff and acceptable survivability even in a HighCZ.

I think for very inexperienced MultiCrew Visitors, Gimbal Weapons might actually be welcome - but of course that comes at the price of effectiveness, especially against the massive bullet sponges you get in Conflict Zones