re: Statement on Harassment

[Ian Phillips]

Everyone:

Moderation is done in an as impartial manner as we can, but of course anyone always has the right of appeal of any moderation action taken against their account, and the procedure can be found in the Forum rules (link at the bottom of the forum page)

If there are concerns about moderation policy in general, that is an issue for FD and in this game forum the Elite Community Managers, not for an open discussion on "Someone else got banned for X,Y or Z".

So, please stop discussing how you think the forum should be moderated and address those concerns, with valid examples and facts, to the CM Team via email.

 

[Ydiss]

Moderation is not to be discussed on the forums, stop leading him into a trap

Zac once made a post that was quite sarcastic in response to someone thanking him sarcastically.

There, I mentioned the thing he was probably referring to. We weren't discussing moderation (at least I think he wasn't).

I had a good idea what he's talking about but he's pretending it's related to abuse.

It isn't. But, maybe he was talking about another incident so that's why I asked the question. I'd rather respond with facts.

But I reckon I'm right in my assumption.

 

[Ydiss]

I'm getting upset, you're harming me right now.

I'm absolutely confident nothing I said was harmful

I've been nothing but polite in every post I've written in disagreement in this thread. I've just disagreed.

However, if my comments do upset you genuinely, you can block me; as I haven't broken any rules, any harm you feel is something you'll need to manage (definitely recommend avoiding these forums if what I said hurt you!). I won't be upset if you block me. As I do think we've run this conversation into its logical end, I'm happy to leave it there.

 

[Vandaahl]

Everyone:

Moderation is done in an as impartial manner as we can, but of course anyone always has the right of appeal of any moderation action taken against their account, and the procedure can be found in the Forum rules (link at the bottom of the forum page)

If there are concerns about moderation policy in general, that is an issue for FD and in this game forum the Elite Community Managers, not for an open discussion on "Someone else got banned for X,Y or Z".

So, please stop discussing how you think the forum should be moderated and address those concerns, with valid examples and facts, to the CM Team via email.

One could ask whether Arthur's statement is a step away from the forum rules. I mean, those are pretty clear, and applicable to all.

 

[d8veh]

Let's face it, so much has already been done to cause loyal customers and long-time players to no longer want to play, that banning a few more for getting too emotional in their complaints won't make much difference. If you get banned, use it as an excuse to start playing something else. Remember, it's only a game! There are lots of other ones and lots of other forums where you can have all the same fun.

Personally, I don't think this is the time for FD to drive deeper wedges between themselves and their paying customers. People are getting emotional and should be given some tolerance to vent off steam. A few hurty words never hurt anyone, but these customers are the bread and butter of FD.

I think it would have been better if they created a thread called "slag off the devs" where you would be allowed to call them names and rank them in the list of the worst people in the world, etc, just for the purposes of venting off. Better still, like that old internet routine where you could punch a politician or celeb, they could make a mini game where the devs are all named NPCs that you can blow up, squish them with your ship, shoot them, push them off a cliff, etc. At least that would keep people playing while they sort out the issues. It would be great to see how creative players are to bring about their favourite dev's most dastardly death using the in-game resources. That would have been a much better solution than clamping down on what the players can post.

 

[Ydiss]

One could ask whether Arthur's statement is a step away from the forum rules. I mean, those are pretty clear, and applicable to all.

I'm not the one you asked but...

It's change to the way abuse is handled but it's not as though abuse was suddenly no longer tolerated. Everything he says in terms of how we treat each other is already covered by the rules. He's just making an announcement because there has been a specific rise in abuse since EDO launched and he's making it clear it's not tolerated and so they're changing how the punishment is handled.

I've seen this sort of thing occur in many areas of life. Sometimes, sadly, it's necessary. It's like seeing the anti abuse posters at doctor surgeries. It's sometimes necessary to make it very clear. It's still normal that no one should act that way anyway and it's against the law anyway. Most decent human beings don't need a definitive list of what constitutes abuse to know what they shouldn't do to staff who are just doing their job.

What I think is way more poignant than this topic is that I think it's very sad Arf felt it necessary to make the post and I think quite a few in this thread have apparently ignored that and some even think it's appropriate to challenge the validity of it as though fdev are making further mistakes by "driving a wedge", for simply stating they won't tolerate abuse.

Just inappropriate, in my opinion. The message was clear. It's a shame it was deemed necessary. I hope everyone just understands why and moves on without abusing fdev.

 

[Kaocraft]

Play the ball, not the player is the case really.

If you are going to critique then do it constructively.

If someone continually tells lies, you can maybe call the lie a lie, but you can't call them a liar, is what I got from this.

 

[Northpin]

It's not, everything he says is already covered by the rules. He's just making an announcement because there has been a specific rise in abuse since EDO launched and he's making it clear it's not tolerated.

Wrong.
Ian Phillips was so kind to give a clarification.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Just permanently ban everyone who participated in this thread - it'll make life better for everyone.

 

[Northpin]

Just permanently ban everyone who participated in this thread - it'll make life better for everyone.

Diplomacy at its best

 

[Vandaahl]

What I think is way more poignant than this topic is that I think it's very sad Arf felt it necessary to make the post and I think quite a few in this thread have apparently ignored that (not being specific there, you're not included)

Well, to be honest, personally I find the message a bit superfluous.

If you need to be told to have some decency you prolly don't get that message anyway.

 

[Sesim]

Nothing was unclear about the dev post. You can even air grievances of intent without being abusive:

Not abuse:
"It looks to me like you misled the community by making these statements"

Abuse:
"You're a liar"

Criticize actions, and maybe even intent, but not the person. This is not hard. Anyone who has achieved consistent employment should have this life skill well in hand.

This community's response to this disaster in forums and across twitter is doing 10x more to dampen my desire to play and contribute to this game than the actions of frontier ever have.

 

[Northpin]

If you need to be told to have some decency you prolly don't get that message anyway.

That's perfectly demonstrated by the posts #31, #41 and #51 in this very thread

 

[zimms]

You need advice on what constitutes an abusive message?

Wouldn't hurt, would it? I don't know why you so happily dismiss the OP.

I think we ALL agree that harassment and abuse of Frontier employees can/should/will not be tolerated.But there's a huge grey area and a perma ban instead of a temporal one is a pretty big stick.

One (exaggerated) example: The Elite Meme thread. It certainly doesn't count as constructive criticism. And people making fun of their game could certainly be seen as hurtful for people working on it. Should everyone who ever posted in that thread be perma banned?

Obviously that wouldn't happen due to common sense but there's still a lot of room for a mod simply having a bad day. An appeal could then be problematic because "technically" you broke the rules.

I think bans and perma bans for repeat offenders would still have sufficed (excluding special cases), but it's Frontier's house so they can do as they please at the end of the day.

Oh and to come back to the example already brought up (already I'm in the grey area by doing that, after all aren't we discussing forum moderation in this thread?): I feel like a ban in that case was a bit too much and not really needed. Telling him to adjust the post or even deleting it would have looked more proport

 

[Ydiss]

That's perfectly demonstrated by the posts #31, #41 and #51 in this very thread

Elaborate why you think my post demonstrates that point, please.

 

[rOmiLaYu]

The two things about which I need most clarity after this thread:

1) Is "Arf" actually short for "Arthur?" Is that a UK thing? I saw a stream back when he was doing something with the Hull Seals and they had a laugh about the sounds that seals make and calling him "Arf" was funny. I thought that is was just punny, so to speak. But seeing him sign his post as "Arf" and so many people refering to him as such has made me ask if it was serious, rather than a joke.

2) "Gobbing off." "Gobb" is your mouth, yeah? So if you're "gobbing off," is that akin to what this colonial would call "running your mouth?"

A cultural exchange program is what we need to turn this thread into, really. Now where's that "pip pip cheerio what what" lad when you need him?

 

[Ydiss]

Wouldn't hurt, would it? I don't know why you so happily dismiss the OP.

I think we ALL agree that harassment and abuse of Frontier employees can/should/will not be tolerated.But there's a huge grey area and a perma ban instead of a temporal one is a pretty big stick.

I was dismissing the idea that there was anything to question or any controversy about the post made by Arf, on what should be a pretty obvious account that we should all be fully aware of the rules of these forums, even if we're not capable of knowing what's abusive or not - which should be a generally sensible thing most humans should be capable of (and I think many of the replies suggests some of us aren't fully aware of the rules of the forum if they're confused by this very basic rule). Considering the fact that we all are allowed to participate here on the strict condition that we abide by those rules, suddenly calling for specifics now seems very disingenous, if I'm being suspicious. We've been here for years, many of us, posting without questioning the rules and yet now we need someone to spell out what "harmful" means? Just because Arf made a post on it.

Given the OP's responses to the official replies, I'm happy to say that suspicion wouldn't have been correctly placed at their door (they asked, got answered and thanked for the answer - pretty conclusive to me that their intent was genuine). But they're not the only person contributing to this thread.

I'm dismissing that controversy and I feel that it's coming from a place that just enjoys controversy.

I just re-read the forum rules, by the way. They're no more or less specific than Arf's post. Why the sudden need to get a specific list of things that are "harmful" now, rather than any time over the last 7+ years these forums have been in place? I had an entire conversation with someone about the word "harmful" with them claiming it's meaningless. Why did that happen now? Why have they suddenly gained a fear of being banned now when that risk has, by their definition, been there since they joined?

Sorry, not buying that this is 100% genuine at all. My opinion is that, for some, this is the only way they can feel to be seen to "retort" to what Arf said. Just another way to get another jab in, even when it's a human being asking for some people to stop abusing them.

 

[BlackMaze]

Oof... This is a tough one to respond to. I see people discussing my absence of the forum and I do feel concern in debating it in public for the fear of consequence.

I want to reply to this thread because I have felt an incredible amount of confusion related to what has happened. Today's post by Arthur has done nothing but resurface those feelings.

A little background...

I'm typically somebody that creates videos surrounding nothing but positive events related to Elite. Group events, races, machinima or when I get invited to the Community Managers livestream to host or commentate a race (wall climbing with Steven and Arthur and Alec Turner, triathlon race with Zac, Steven, Arthur and Alec and a canyon race with Zac and Osashes).

It's only when ODE was released that I raised concerns/criticism (about planet tech). First through forum posts and later through videos as well because I felt unheard. There was so much radio silence following the release of ODE that I felt it was important to make sure the wider community was aware so they could all make their own opinion.

I think there is a big divide in relation to who is happy with ODE and who is not but the reality is that my voice has been nothing but a reflection of a large portion of the community. I don't mean to speak for those that don't agree so please don't take that personally in case you don't agree. It's just my observation.

I made sure that all the criticism and feedback I posted, while direct and maybe harsh, was constructive and not without thanks for all the hard work the development team has done.

Anyway... I posted something on the forum that was against the rules and it was deleted. I respect that and the forum rules even though I did find evidence of others doing the same as I did without reperrcussion. I found out about 2 hours later and decided to repost it with all the corrections needed to stay within the rules. That was when I was temporarily removed from the forum and the CMs have ignored every single message from me since (this includes trying to rectify the situation, sort out stuff for Rebuy Unlimited, arranging an account upgrade and trying to organise a group event).

If people want specific reasons then I think only a moderator should answer this. I'd rather avoid causing more trouble for myself.

I apologize for how vague that sounds but I don't want to get in any trouble. I've had so many people ask me about this via Discord and PMs.. So I either post it here for people to read or I have to keep telling people in Discord and private messages.

This post is already a big gamble for me because it might put me in more trouble than it's worth :-/

TLDR:

I'm usually pretty positive. I spoke out a few times. Things hit the fan and people, including myself, were left confused!

 

[rOmiLaYu]

Kinda, although it almost always has a negative connotation. Someone gobbing off is usually being abusive towards some else.

Same with "running your mouth." It's mostly always negative.

Apologies for saying "mostly always."

 

[Ted Striker]

Abuse:
"You're a liar"

"You're a liar" isn't abuse. It may be more rude than wording it another way but it's not abuse. If it was something like "You're a liar, go play in traffic" or something like that then yeah, issue a warning. Not that I agree with making a statement like that, but banning people for it? That's just a bit excessive.

My fear is this latest statement could be the start of silencing criticism of the expansion. It could start with ending abusive statements but not end there, if you know what I mean. Criticism of a game is bad for business and I've seen the silencing of criticism -- legitimate criticism -- plenty of times elsewhere.

I've mentioned Braben directly myself, when he said he played the Odyssey alpha on an old PC from 2011 and it ran great. I called that statement nonsense. Is that abuse? Is it even warnable? Not at all.