Recent discussions of CG, Combat logging, "Griefers", etc, PLEASE explain...

[Zambrick]

Right now Griefers get mad because they lose the kill because of Combat logs. Because of the Engineers death is 10 to 15 seconds max. People were high waking and that was called cheating. People combat logged so that is now cheating. Either way the entire so called PVP contact in this games breaks down to one scenario.

Griefer Vs Victim. It is up to the victim of the crime to facilitate the only fun that the Griefer can have. The Griefer runs around in solo doing the exact same trade routes that you do but they then go into open play and purchase the best fighting class ships with the best Mods and then hunt other players just trying to do the same thing that they do in solo mode.

They are telling you only have 2 choices when it comes to how you play this game. One choice is to play in solo or small groups in private and deprive yourself of anything that happens in open. Any kind of collaboration, help, or fun you wish to have with other players is not allowed. I

If you want to be a trader you better have the best trade ship that has the best defense and the best armament and that is all on the victim. Otherwise its your fault for being in open. Its your fault for wanting to take part in community events. Its your fault if you want to meet new people

Thats the problem. There is 0 risk and 0 reward in comparison to the cost of ship rebuy for the victim of the crime.

Psychotic or antisocial behavior is always punished or controlled in any community. Measures are put in place to stop or mitigate the problem.

Since day one the Griefers have not had to worry about that. They continue to destroy and waste the time of traders and explorers and nobody benefits from anything. Traders and explorers have to balance their ship fuctionality and purpose while griefers do not. You can make a super tanky trader and not be able to cover the cost of one rebuy or you can hope that you dont get ganked in a system that is "Safe". Anarchy its all on you though. I agree with that much. But if you are jumping around the bubble it should be impossible for pirates to commit more than a few crimes before they are destroyed. The punishment for a bad parking job at a space port is death. The cost of purposly and senselessly killing another player is 200k. It really doesnt match.

As soon as combat logging becomes a non issue and is somehow stopped the next thing will be high wake FSD. That will be the next target if they ever fix combat logging.

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

Thanks for adding. I agree the analogy is not perfect. I also agree that some mistakes were made with Engineers. I feel like the gist of this point is similar to certain accounts of other types of cheating, i.e. it becomes a viable or live option in situations where the task feels insurmountable by legitimate means. In this case, the skill/equipment/time investment gap from one end of the spectrum to the other is just too great and thus the motivation to engage in the gameplay strictly by the book is significantly diminished for the average player facing a tough situation. The complaints then regarding this are seemingly intended to bring the game back into some kind of reasonable balance, since this balance was part of the expectation for engaging with the game in the first place?

Correct. I said I never combat-logged but when 2.1 initially came out, I did it a few times when I felt that I was cheated by the "new" NPCs, not real players. People form judgement in their head about whether this is acceptable or not. I would imagine that a lot of people would not find it acceptable or honorable to gank on other players so they resort to the only mean they have to rectify what they perceive as a game imbalance or and unjustified action against them. Problem is, you have to be very quick at combat-logging so they cannot wait to see whether the attacker is honorable or a ganker...

 

[c48113]

I've been too long with those ejits... I will simply combat log EVERYTIME until there is no PVE mode, whenever I want - and I am laughing my ass off those little suckers, that then moan about not beeing able to kill me in my ASP Explorer with their pimped Cutter for their twitch and youtube money - i love how they cry... poor boys... get a live! Let me play in an open PVE environment (not a PG like Mobius, thats too small for a real MMO), and i will go there. Until then, suck my log.

PS: Alternative is, gankers leave open and go to CQC where they belong to... ahhhm wait, that would be a too fair of a fight...

I am beginning to think that combat logging is the perfect way to tick off PVP'rs just like they are trying to tick us off. We combat log and they get on the boards and cry. They need to form a mobius group for PVP and get out of open.

 

[FurtivePygmy]

The punishment for a bad parking job at a space port is death. The cost of purposly and senselessly killing another player is 200k. It really doesnt match.

Lol, it's all about priorities I guess. In the future, everyone got REALLY tired of double-parking

 

[AJH16]

It is against the rules, it's an exploit.

Out of curiosity, do you have a link where they say that? I tried to find one and couldn't. I'm legitimately curious about it now though. It does seem odd that they wouldn't block it if they considered it an exploit as it should be pretty easy to prevent securely with fairly minimal changes unless the code is really horrendous.

 

[Cupcake]

Right now Griefers get mad because they lose the kill because of Combat logs. Because of the Engineers death is 10 to 15 seconds max. People were high waking and that was called cheating. People combat logged so that is now cheating. Either way the entire so called PVP contact in this games breaks down to one scenario.

Griefer Vs Victim. It is up to the victim of the crime to facilitate the only fun that the Griefer can have. The Griefer runs around in solo doing the exact same trade routes that you do but they then go into open play and purchase the best fighting class ships with the best Mods and then hunt other players just trying to do the same thing that they do in solo mode.

They are telling you only have 2 choices when it comes to how you play this game. One choice is to play in solo or small groups in private and deprive yourself of anything that happens in open. Any kind of collaboration, help, or fun you wish to have with other players is not allowed. I

If you want to be a trader you better have the best trade ship that has the best defense and the best armament and that is all on the victim. Otherwise its your fault for being in open. Its your fault for wanting to take part in community events. Its your fault if you want to meet new people

Thats the problem. There is 0 risk and 0 reward in comparison to the cost of ship rebuy for the victim of the crime.

Psychotic or antisocial behavior is always punished or controlled in any community. Measures are put in place to stop or mitigate the problem.

Since day one the Griefers have not had to worry about that. They continue to destroy and waste the time of traders and explorers and nobody benefits from anything. Traders and explorers have to balance their ship fuctionality and purpose while griefers do not. You can make a super tanky trader and not be able to cover the cost of one rebuy or you can hope that you dont get ganked in a system that is "Safe". Anarchy its all on you though. I agree with that much. But if you are jumping around the bubble it should be impossible for pirates to commit more than a few crimes before they are destroyed. The punishment for a bad parking job at a space port is death. The cost of purposly and senselessly killing another player is 200k. It really doesnt match.

As soon as combat logging becomes a non issue and is somehow stopped the next thing will be high wake FSD. That will be the next target if they ever fix combat logging.

I love the way you neatly parcel all PvPers "griefers" after that, all your credibility follows your post down the pan...../flush

 

[Dangerouseli]

The code isnt horrendous and even if it could be replaced.

Out of curiosity, do you have a link where they say that? I tried to find one and couldn't. I'm legitimately curious about it now though. It does seem odd that they wouldn't block it if they considered it an exploit as it should be pretty easy to prevent securely with fairly minimal changes unless the code is really horrendous.

 

[Zambrick]

Out of curiosity, do you have a link where they say that? I tried to find one and couldn't. I'm legitimately curious about it now though. It does seem odd that they wouldn't block it if they considered it an exploit as it should be pretty easy to prevent securely with fairly minimal changes unless the code is really horrendous.

They cant at this point because player interaction is instanced and requires both parties to be connected p2p. Just like the CODs and other such FPS games. They would have to build a shared server structure similar to an MMO. But those kinds of servers cost a lot of money and they dont charge a monthly fee for access.

I dont see it changing any time soon.

 

[FurtivePygmy]

I want to really thank everyone who has contributed here so far (I've tried to rep everybody appropriately). Its been both interesting and enlightening. Got to run for now, and won't be able to respond for a while, but I'll definitely check back on this later or tomorrow if the discussion continues. Cheers!

 

[Scoopy Doopy]

I want to really thank everyone who has contributed here so far (I've tried to rep everybody appropriately). Its been both interesting and enlightening. Got to run for now, and won't be able to respond for a while, but I'll definitely check back on this later or tomorrow if the discussion continues. Cheers!

Cheers FurtivePygmy. It has been a mature debate at least.

 

[Cupcake]

I am beginning to think that combat logging is the perfect way to tick off PVP'rs just like they are trying to tick us off. We combat log and they get on the boards and cry. They need to form a mobius group for PVP and get out of open.

This derp should be banned, inciting people to openly cheat/exploit? Nice jobs mods......

 

[ROSS-128]

I think a lot of it has to do with the goal of the game (which of course, is something people do not necessarily agree on).

To extend the dodgeball analogy (although it's not really a good one, since it seems to be constructed with the assumption of "the purpose of the game is to blow up each other's ships, all other activities are to support buying ships to blow up"), the goal of dodgeball is to tag members of the opposing team with the ball to get them out, not to inflict as much pain as possible on your opponents. While certain situations or vigorous attempts to achieve a tag may inflict pain as a side-effect, most people generally agree that you shouldn't be playing to maximize pain inflicted and so generally avoid aiming for areas such as the face or groin.

Unfortunately, some immature people who play dodgeball set inflicting maximum pain as their own goal, regardless of what everyone else is going in expecting. Anyone here who's had a PE class has probably met at least one person like this. The people who deliberately aim for the face and groin, and seem to be more concerned with breaking noses than scoring points. They'll insist that it's just legitimate gameplay on the one hand, while gloating about inflicting injury on the other. Those are greifers. Even though strictly speaking there's no practical way to stop them playing like that, especially in a PE class where participation is mandatory and the other players can't just refuse to play with that person, playing that way still makes them a massive jerks.

In Elite, to most players the goals of the game are to earn credits, buy ships to fly around in, and support their favorite factions. While some of these activities may involve blowing up ships, even other players, that's not the primary goal. "How many helpless Type 6s and Haulers I've murdered" is generally not considered an acceptable performance metric in this game. Piracy is considered at least somewhat legitimate because in theory it earns credits (or at least we like to pretend it does), thus actually contributing to the main goal of the game. Blowing the target up when you're done is frowned upon because that's just unnecessary ery.

Straight-up ganking draws a lot of ire because it doesn't even try to work toward the main goal of the game. It's more along the lines of "Yes, you CAN take some lava buckets in Minecraft and burn the whole map to the ground, but you really shouldn't." There's no reason to gank a trader except to be a jerk on the internet, so of course doing that makes you a jerk. Or to go back to the dodgeball analogy, it's like continuing to pummel someone who is already out. You don't score any points for hitting someone who is already out, and no there's no such thing as a bonus for bruises. At that point the pretext of "just playing the game" is flimsy at best, really you're just being a jerk.

(edit: it's also really hard to have an adequate discussion about greifing when all but the mildest words for "people being mean" are on the filter list...)

 

[Zambrick]

I love the way you neatly parcel all PvPers "griefers" after that, all your credibility follows your post down the pan...../flush

That is because their is no PVP in open so they are one in the same. The "PvPers" do not take any risk at all. Otherwise they would do nothing but pull combat ships out of FSD. I have never been pulled out of FSD in my FDL, Python, or Vulture by another player. Its no fun if the person on the other end of the forced contact can defend themselves.

So until their is a risk for the "PVPer" that is even close to matching the rest of the community, then PVPers are just Griefers. The only time I have seen PVP used well is during group created special events and dueling. That is not the issue. In fact that is alot of fun.

We are talking about people who pull people out of FSD in a far superior ship fitted for military level combat with the intention of killing another player.

Their is no such thing as a honorable pirate this is not Disney Land and Pirates were never like the Pirates of the Caribbean ride.

Piracy was and is done with the full intention of retiring as soon as possible and then hiding. Pirates get killed or quit being pirates.

Traders can never defend themselves in combat. Their is no system in place to hire NPCs or other players to protect you. So since their is no risk for "PvPers" in open then they are griefers.

 

[AJH16]

They cant at this point because player interaction is instanced and requires both parties to be connected p2p. Just like the CODs and other such FPS games. They would have to build a shared server structure similar to an MMO. But those kinds of servers cost a lot of money and they dont charge a monthly fee for access.

That is not correct. It is not pure P2P, but rather P2P with a scorekeeper. Normally, both parties would be expected to agree in most scorekeeper systems for it to store a victory, however, it should be pretty trivial to update the client to make up information if a client stops responding by handing it over to the NPC routines or even just flying in a straight line. Then, when only one participant reports to the score keeper and the other player can't be contacted, the scorekeeper can safely trust the only player notifying it (so long as both players acknowledged the start of the conflict). The scorekeeper would record the death and the next time the player loads their game, the death would still be reflected on their status. You can see that this information is available in the scorekeeper already because it is available on the API for requesting data.

Their is no system in place to hire NPCs or other players to protect you. So since their is no risk for "PvPers" in open then they are griefers.

Yeah, something like a player driven bounty system would be great. It would also be great if when a player was killed, it "tagged" their killer for say, 10 minutes, with a beacon going out that a kill warrant scanner could pick up and making it so they can be followed for a short period of time. Perhaps raise the bounty substantially for this time period as well to encourage people to bounty hunt player killers.

 

[AJW]

Suppose further that the rules for said game are very clear to both of us...

Given that any rules are never laid out anywhere a player can reasonably be presumed to have seen them, this supposition is invalid, making the rest of the OP's initial comments likewise invalid.

 

[Zambrick]

That is not correct. It is not pure P2P, but rather P2P with a scorekeeper. Normally, both parties would be expected to agree in most scorekeeper systems for it to store a victory, however, it is pretty trivial to update the client to make up information if a client stops responding by handing it over to the NPC routines or even just flying in a straight line. Then, when only one participant reports to the score keeper and the other player can't be contacted, the scorekeeper can safely trust the only player notifying it (so long as both players acknowledged the start of the conflict). The scorekeeper would record the death and the next time the player loads their game, the death would still be reflected on their status. You can see that this information is available in the scorekeeper already because it is available on the API for requesting data.

I am pretty sure that all the ship stats and whatnot are on their server. That doesnt require much server space or power so there is no need to charge people. The trigger pulls at least by the way it acts is what is Instanced.

There is a good you tube video out there on how bullets in VGs work. Its pretty good.

The server stores your ships numbers like defense shield strength ship type and cargo. Fighting seems to be P2P. Otherwise I dont think you could combat log. I am pretty sure that how it works but I have never seen their base net code so I could not tell you for sure. I can only see the effects of it.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Out of curiosity, do you have a link where they say that? I tried to find one and couldn't. I'm legitimately curious about it now though. It does seem odd that they wouldn't block it if they considered it an exploit as it should be pretty easy to prevent securely with fairly minimal changes unless the code is really horrendous.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/105778-“Combat-Logging”-Update

 

[Mangal Oemie]

I am a PvE combat pilot, who plays the BGS in Open. I have never combat or menu-logged. If I die, I die.

But I do understand loggers.

Personally, I have zero problem with pirates, contract killers, or CMDRs met on opposing sides in CZs, CMDRs wanted in a res, blockades, etc. I actually don't even have problems with ... let's say "bandits" for lack of a better term.

But they are not part of my game. Pure PvP builds that go after players that are in ships that stand no chance, combat or otherwise. They're just a distraction, a pause to my game play, and returns me to my last station. It just means I lose a bit of time and cash. I don't even fight back if it is clear it's a PvP build. Have your 10 secs of fun. Bye!

That's how I see it. I have only been executed like this twice in 7+ full weeks of gameplay over 7-8 months, so it is rare and unusual, and 99.9% of the time you meet all kinds of CMDRs in Open, of all ranks, and all activities/game roles.

And BTW, it doesnt go:

Open = PvP
PG = PvE
Solo = PvE

it is:

Open: connect to other players, known or unknown
PG: play with friends (or 20,000 "friends")
Solo: play alone

It's just a feature of how the networking is going to go.

I recognize PvP is a possibility in Open. Fine. If the other is in a PvE build, we can have some fun, and actually battle on skills. If it's just 10 secs of unleash heat nonsense... meh, I'll just sit there and wait for it to be over. There's no challenge, achievement or anything in that.

I just don't care about the loss and can afford it. But can totally understand others would log in that situation.

PvP, an inconsequential activity in the ED galaxy, with next to no effect on BGS. That makes PvP completely a distraction to me for the actual goals I want to achieve in-game, and the activities I like to engage in.

 

[Zambrick]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/105778-“Combat-Logging”-Update

I read that in the past as well. I also fully agree with the statement. It is a known exploit but fighting back or trying to escape really has been taken away from Pilots in anything less than an Anaconda or Cutter.

I do not combat log myself but I see the appeal having limited play time myself.

Real Crime and punishment will bring this all into line and make it a non issue. So if you are just killing for the sake of killing then you will be forced out to the edge of inhabited space like the Reavers. If you are just a criminal then you have a lot of wiggle room to still be piratey and useful in the simulation.

They really need to address this sooner rather than later. Especially if they are going to have more player events in Open.

 

[m0rl0ck]

It's FD's software, actually, you merely purchased the right to use it. When you use it illegitimately against legitimate players, the one in the wrong is you.

Well thats a philosophical point beyond the scope of this discussion i think. If its on my computer i get to choose when to run it and i think if fd tried to tell players when to start and stop software running on their own computers that legal problems might result for fd. It would be interesting to see how that might play out though.