Relative Mouse mode

[Feros-da-Grundig]

It's gamepad users that get the real short end of the stick anyway. I'm positively astounded at what some people seem to be able to do with only a dozen buttons, a couple of analog triggers with maybe a centimeter of travel, and two turd-level sticks that are worse versions of my thruster ministick.

I actually have roll on my triggers, and b/c fdev doesn't give the option to split into two analog inputs (like the do with thrust or SRV) my analog triggers are wasted as digital inputs.

However with 2 rear paddle addon, I prefer my DS4 pad to the only available HOTAS on my platform. I don't like the options for verticals, and the throttle lever is dinky.

 

[fus roh potato]

Thanks for explaining this so succinctly. It's a debate that has been ongoing since forever, and us HOTAS users keep being told that it's all a matter of practice, not control method. Well, there's a reason why you can count the top tier PvPers who also uses HOTAS/HOSAS pretty much on one hand. The vast majority are KBM users...for a reason.

For my part, it's a bit sad that when choosing a HOTAS as the input method for what is basically a flight sim, you are for all intents and purposes gimping yourself at the highest levels of combat. I say remove the relative mouse option entirely, and bring the HOTAS to the forefront where it belongs

PS: Nice to see you back btw. Been a while.

HOTAS is the popular pick in PvP among twitch streamers (almost 100%) and is not uncommonly found with the game's top duelists. As far as I know, it is also slightly in the majority pick among the general scrubs as well, mostly because of the added convenience of flying in both FA on and FA off without having to use manual keyboard inputs. I have one and can vouch that the ability to snipe and track targets with it is not hindered, but I simply don't use it because manual keyboard keys is less of a hastle than pulling the thing out and plugging it in.

If you're interested at all in being more fair about your claim, please review youtube videos of duels flagged with elite dangerous pvp. Lack of a mouse indicator combined with smooth throttle control is usually a good indicator of a HOTAS in use. There are certainly more commanders posting good duels with HOTAS than I can count on my fingers...

The fact that you think it would take hundreds of hours to master this control method is the reason people say it's not viable. *No one* wants to spend hundreds of hours learning a control system.
Any intuitive and desirable control system would not take hundreds of hours to master.

Why would anyone put themselves through that?

This is a good point. It's not that the control method is bad, it's that people are inconvenienced to either use it or learn it. It's like using a different sensitivity setting in an FPS game. You're used to a certain value. There's no sense in changing it if it makes you worse.

 

[fus roh potato]

I get that people don't want to admit their choice of control method aids them, sort of like admitting ur not so gud as it were.

The plain fact is the relative mouse mouse gives you quicker more precise recentering then stick and also gives the pin point accuracy of a laser alongside, a clear advantage. Otherwise as Arguendo said above the vast majority of pvp focused players wouldn't choose it.

That "fact" is false. Sticks center more quickly than relative mouse. The relative mouse centering rate is fixed and takes about a half second, significantly slower. What is a fact is that relative mouse doesn't have positional feedback. If I set my joystick to have zero deadzone and a sharp curve, I can slap full left and right control back and forth several times per second. The same can be done with a mouse but you don't feel where it is and the precision is lost.

 

[DukeOnSteroids]

If you removed relative mouse mode, then HOTAS users would have a clear advantage over mouse users in FA-OFF mode.

But hey, you must not fly with FA-Off, or?

Easy to learn (FA-On), but hard to master (FA-Off).

Now it's: Easy to learn (FA-On) and much easier to master (FA-Off). In Terms of gameplay a bankruptcy declaration.

*No one* wants to spend hundreds of hours learning a control system.

Do you played Clicker Heroes before?

 

[DukeOnSteroids]

Sticks center more quickly than relative mouse.

Ohhh boy... now its getting absurd!

I can slap full left and right control back and forth several times per second.

What's the point... your ship does not react so fast.

 

[nanite2000]

But hey, you must not fly with FA-Off, or?

Easy to learn (FA-On), but hard to master (FA-Off).

Now it's: Easy to learn (FA-On) and much easier to master (FA-Off). In Terms of gameplay a bankruptcy declaration.

You must never have played KBM with FA-OFF and relative mouse disabled. If you had, you wouldn’t have made that statement.

Do you played Clicker Heroes before?

No.

 

[Arguendo]

HOTAS is the popular pick in PvP among twitch streamers (almost 100%) and is not uncommonly found with the game's top duelists.

I dare you to name the cmdrs using HOTAS in the top groups in this year's PvP League.

Just to clarify, I am not saying that Relative Mouse is a hack or an exploit (the part about removing it was a joke. never gonna happen), but that it is far superior and easier to master than a HOTAS in FA OFF. It is why the top players use that method almost exclusively. Yes, they have tremendous skill and have spent hours upon hours to master it, not disputing that. Claiming it's a level playing field is disingenous though, imho.

 

[DukeOnSteroids]

You must never have played KBM with FA-OFF and relative mouse disabled. If you had, you wouldn’t have made that statement.

Yes, i have not. It is a space-ship-simulator! I'm not rich, but i can afford a cheap logitech-joystick.

It takes also many hours to learn FA-Off with joystick. And i bet, it is doable with mouse (without that relative-mouse-cheat-pack) too. Sure, i could say "Oh no, it doesn't work directly as i want I switch to the easy-mode now". I'm glad i did not. All i read is "i want to be good now not someday". No excuse.

Play as you want. We have this mess for a long time. I got used to it. But for "toggle" i vote with a "no, enough concessions".

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Noobs lol.

 

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

I say we should remove the option to rebind pips. Why?
The original idea was to have pips on the arrow keys. Rebinding them to more comfortable buttons removes the need to lift one of your hands off the mouse/keyboard to reach the pips. In my opinion this is overpowered and makes it too easy and is a cheat.

 

[jasonbarron]

I dare you to name the cmdrs using HOTAS in the top groups in this year's PvP League.

Just to clarify, I am not saying that Relative Mouse is a hack or an exploit (the part about removing it was a joke. never gonna happen), but that it is far superior and easier to master than a HOTAS in FA OFF. It is why the top players use that method almost exclusively. Yes, they have tremendous skill and have spent hours upon hours to master it, not disputing that. Claiming it's a level playing field is disingenous though, imho.

Many commentators within this thread refer to relative mouse as being a hack or an exploit or a cheat, implying that "they can master it in thirty minutes," which is in stark contrast to the part of your post which I emboldened, and I didn't know you were previously joking until you just said so. I think the idea that it's any of those things is the joke, and the assertion that someone is going to pick it up in half an hour an outright lie. Like anything else at the top levels of the game, it takes a LOT of practice to actually master.

I don't know about this year's PvP league, but I know several twin stick pilot's who are true masters. One of the original FA Off Lords is SDC's Sundae. Smooth as silk and as deadly as John Wick.

 

[VincentUK]

Oh no, please don't take away my crutch!

 

[nanite2000]

Yes, i have not. It is a space-ship-simulator! I'm not rich, but i can afford a cheap logitech-joystick.

It takes also many hours to learn FA-Off with joystick. And i bet, it is doable with mouse (without that relative-mouse-cheat-pack) too. Sure, i could say "Oh no, it doesn't work directly as i want I switch to the easy-mode now". I'm glad i did not. All i read is "i want to be good now not someday". No excuse.

Play as you want. We have this mess for a long time. I got used to it. But for "toggle" i vote with a "no, enough concessions".

I’m assuming you play on console then? Because if you played on PC you would have a keyboard and mouse anyway, and you could try it for yourself firsthand at no extra cost.

So, if you can’t/won’t play with keyboard and mouse, you’re only making assumptions about how easy it is to play FA-OFF with relative mouse disabled.

And when you assume...

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

It's pretty simple really.

Relative mouse, or joystick curves are ED's version of driver aides.

If you will, TCS, ABS or STM, take your pick.

Still an assist.

A good pilot on sticks can easily wipe the floor with people on M&Kb. Yes, also without curves.

So to summarise. If you need these crutches. You guessed it kiddo.

You've still a lot of gittin gud to do.

 

[Arguendo]

Many commentators within this thread refer to relative mouse as being a hack or an exploit or a cheat, implying that "they can master it in thirty minutes," which is in stark contrast to the part of your post which I emboldened, and I didn't know you were previously joking until you just said so. I think the idea that it's any of those things is the joke, and the assertion that someone is going to pick it up in half an hour an outright lie. Like anything else at the top levels of the game, it takes a LOT of practice to actually master.

The big at the end of it should have given it away as a joke
And absolutely, the top PvPers in the game have spent an incredible amount of time to get where they are at. I guess the question is, would they have gotten to the same level having used a HOTAS in that time? All speculation, and no definitive answer, so I'll just leave it up there.

I don't know about this year's PvP league, but I know several twin stick pilot's who are true masters. One of the original FA Off Lords is SDC's Sundae. Smooth as silk and as deadly as John Wick.

I know of two at the top level; Sundae and Bazinga!, both using HOSAS afaik. There are a couple of up-and-comers that I know of right now, but they're not at the top quite yet. Still, that leaves less than a handful of them. That's gotta be for a reason right, or is it just a money thing you think?

 

[Alexander the Grape]

To clarify a previous implication:

When I refer to those who are 'exploiters' of relative mouse mode, I did not mean to imply it was an exploit in the ToS breaking sense. It is plainly not so. However, it does gain one some advantage through its usage, so people do 'exploit' it in the dictionary sense

 

[jasonbarron]

The big at the end of it should have given it away as a joke
And absolutely, the top PvPers in the game have spent an incredible amount of time to get where they are at. I guess the question is, would they have gotten to the same level having used a HOTAS in that time? All speculation, and no definitive answer, so I'll just leave it up there.


I know of two at the top level; Sundae and Bazinga!, both using HOSAS afaik. There are a couple of up-and-comers that I know of right now, but they're not at the top quite yet. Still, that leaves less than a handful of them. That's gotta be for a reason right, or is it just a money thing you think?

I think Grape is a twin stick user, too, and despite disagreeing with his comments on this thread I do have a lot of respect for him. Personally speaking, I don't go the twin stick route for the simple reason that I have very limited space on my desk and simply can't dedicate it for playing ED. Keyboard/gamepad/Wacom Tablet & stylus/mouse etc take up too much realstate to make the dual sticks practical. Currently trying to figure out where I'm going to put my new Cintiq when I get one lol

 

[DukeOnSteroids]

I say we should remove the option to rebind pips. Why?
The original idea was to have pips on the arrow keys. Rebinding them to more comfortable buttons removes the need to lift one of your hands off the mouse/keyboard to reach the pips. In my opinion this is overpowered and makes it too easy and is a cheat.

What a nonsense. In the joystick-profile they are bind to the coolie-hat (c-o-o-l-i-e-h-a-t, do you know what that is?) You have no idea what the original intention was, because you obviously never played it the way it was intended. Have fun with your limited controls at docking.

 

[nanite2000]

A lot of the arguments in this thread don’t really appear to be about relative mouse vs non-relative mouse FA-OFF/FA-ON at all.

Instead, they’re the old “KBM gives people an unfair advantage over joystick/controller players”, which has been raging for years, and in no way confined to ED.

And they’re also not the point the OP was trying to make with this thread.

 

[daman]

A lot of the arguments in this thread don’t really appear to be about relative mouse vs non-relative mouse FA-OFF/FA-ON at all.

Instead, they’re the old “KBM gives people an unfair advantage over joystick/controller players”, which has been raging for years, and in no way confined to ED.

And they’re also not the point the OP was trying to make with this thread.

very fair point. thread is way off topic