Resolving the Griefer Issues

Ok... It is a given that this game supplies no actual real-time saves. The save-game implementation here is a definable pseudo save mode at best... That being said, all laws in general require that a stated definable item.object of value be exchanged with the payer by the payee. If the receipt of said value occurs on a random risk based percentage of the time versus the total of all transacted exchanges, then ladies and gentlemen, we have a new horse altogether, and the name of the silly Philly is GAMBLING. Yes indeed, E.D. is quite possibly in Business truth an actual Piece of Casino furniture, otherwise known as a, "One Armed Bandit." Upon the examination of the applied and embodied rules within this game, not some of them, but actually all are indeed not constant. The attrition scales in a non linear & inconstant fashion at the precise and very critical moments of simulation when preservation of player's ability to retain / preserve any form of possessed "In Game Content" transpire. The formula is clear, and direct in its application. Player's content is to be and will be, "reduced", and Frontier's Server space which is leased or Rented from Amazon at cost, is to be and will be factually, "INCREASED" and increase via Argumentum ad baculum ! That unfortunately is a definite ,"CONFLICT OF INTEREST." Sadly, many out there are not mentally capable of such deductive reasoning. That by the way, is not the responsibility of the intelligence possessing and game purchasing customer base. We pay for something that is stated to be offered to us at a given price. This present policy is also clearly affecting future designs of content that was clearly designable and offerable two(2) full decades ago ! This is one of the most severe, and maybe THE most severe failure of Design Policy within this Simulation/Game. Thankfully it can be corrected, and if this game is to be taken seriously in an sincere and HONEST manner, then change these issues of content and scope thereof must !

Here are some basic and historically provable facts about online game-play and content capacity versus what was technologically possible at the time.... Check them out people, and do not just take my word for anything here... Why do I provide this information ? Because Frontier's Programmers and Designers have put a lot of Blood Sweat and Tears into this Incarnation of Elite, and it almost completely shows except when a few very serious and absolutely unavoidable issues are examined outside of the area of focus the Hired corporate P.R. specialists attempt to force Customer attention towards. This capitulation comes as an unconditional and illegitimate form of Fallacy and possible customer fraud... and when these issues get examined under such resolution, that being one closer, than from 10 Zeta kilometers away, if you catch my Astronomical Drift, then one starts to perceive or identify the following issues:

20 years ago Multiplayer command of a minimum of 4 player controlled A.I. Wing-men was fully accomplished within the game of ...
IL-2 STURMOVIK, and within a bandwidth packet size which was a tiny fraction of today's typical 10-100 m.b.p.s. cable connectivity. Oleg Maddox of the 1C Company had to contend with 14.4-56k dial-up telephone modems with unimaginable levels of latency in comparison to today's cable/fiber optics internet connections... So while there is absolutely no question, What So Ever that we are getting lots of Eye Candy in Elite Dangerous, someone's, and I will not point fingers, but someone at Frontier, is Clearly preventing the Development of Proper and realizable content within this sim. The provable, and factual functional result of this person's authority to effect design limitations is that a provable and enormous amount of server space on Amazon's servers is simply not being used for it's stated purpose. I for one now formally make the demand that this policy be stopped immediately. Not next year, no 10 years from now... I mean stop it and that means now. I can provide the M.I.T. Mathematics's Doctorate level Professors, and Corporate Engineers and much more, that will make legally qualified statements of what is being done with the actual Server space and content within this game, and just as important, they will follow and map the Money Trail from beginning to END ! If this type of Dumbing Down of realizable features within M.M.O. games is allowed to continue, it is unquestionably a true statement that all Game Companies will sooner than later come under direct attack of organized crime entities for their property and possession. The end result will be the wholesale use of All online video games as cheaply disguised online Casino's for the singular purpose of defrauding the General Public and Tax Evasion, and Especially for the Mining of Crypto Currencies on a never before experienced scale at tremendous economic and international expense In this case Scotland Yard will be the Authority being skirted around. There appears to be quite a rampant attempt to create special interest laws at this time in response to the fact that several Software companies have already been caught running advanced Bit Coin Mining subroutines within the Online server space, and even on customers machines in several recent cases. It has recently been determined that organized crime costs the EU economy about €110 billion. If I am CENSORED and SILENCED from this FORUM, that will be the final straw here. Factually I will contact Scotland yard, as well as Numerous Professors in the UK all involved in the process of counteracting Cyber-crime, and a real and sincere accounting will take place. This will not be initiated by a off teen, but rather by an Engineer of some 30 years and at 55 Y.O.A.... In other words, no P.R. schmooze or logical set of Fallacies are going to deter me. More over, I will not be financially , "Deterred." Greed will not remove me from the table. I stand firmly one the side of the Customer base and the youth's who are not yet able to perceive exactly how they are being taken advantage of as of yet, but who are put off, when they try to request changes be made to content in this game. They are told, "The Group Voted Against Your Idea's". They do not yet know how to counter this very typical application of the logical"Bandwagon" Fallacy, being used to deter their honest inquiries. David, this is directly to you. You have the ability to order content correction and changes in general. As much as I respect your accomplishments within the field of technology, and especially your invention of intellectual property, I am astounded at the suspensions of applied physics withing the sim, as acts of direct attrition and forced denial/removal of paid for player content, as well as the direct avoidance and denial of well established abilities withing the coding framework of online gaming structure. the levels being logically denied to the paying customer base here within Elite Dangerous approach (20) Twenty Years, TWO DECADES David. Well, we don't need Oleg Maddox to come before a Trial Jury in Court and show the jury how the missing abilities can be applies, Just like he did 20 years ago... Or do we David ? You must know David, that I am posting this out of the full knowledge and respect for your abilities. I know fully well that you can implement player abilities far beyond anything that Oleg Maddox did 20 years ago. This Simulation has had too much support from Fans and too much work from honest coders and artists to just end up as a piece of, "Deception-Ware". If You choose to implement the true ability that can be made available to the customer base here, then I will remain a Fan of your Game series, but this present incarnation of the series, has clearly discernible conflicts of interest between server space usage and the 100 % of that usage which should be used only by the player, as well as what current online content can accomplish. I trust you will quietly restore this David, and I also suggest you restore truthful expression of physics within Elite Dangerous, to Include in a truthful Manner, "Extropic Function of Universe." Better no Coin at all than half the Coin David. 50% of the picture results in error exceeding 75% of possible legitimate physics structures. So David I could have gone straight to Scotland Yard and provided a Research Paper level of explanation and simply allowed them to end Frontier Development, as well as the jobs and Careers of several hundred innocent people, and all truth be told the guilty party might well have left the U.K never to return or to face any real punitive rewards for the action they have practiced upon so many. That, however, is not a way in which Online Simulation of Human Endeavors will be able to continue to develop. The loss of trust, and the drying up of development capitol will be catastrophic, to a long standing point that no P.R. corporate censorship firm will ever be able to compensate for. No one who loves space sims or sims of any kind wants that David, but we must stand up against the intent of organized crime and its utter intent to take over any industry it perceives can be a foundation for illegitimate profiteering, and for the mas laundering of other ill-begotten funds. This issue is certainly no laughing matter, and any company that espouses the belief of invulnerability, reveals their innermost mindset to be one in the same with, "The Fool".

I cant be bothered to read this , I will get a headache.
Learn to paragraph, git gud!

Cheers Cmdr's
 
Frontier seems to disagree with you.. Its on the website, and I quote:



You are welcome. ;)

- - - Updated - - -



omg thats an impressive wall of text.. :O

Lol you rekt that first guy. Frontier outright says it's dangerous. As for the other guy I've seen longer walls of text but he should paragraph edit it.
 
Ok... It is a given that this game supplies no actual real-time saves. The save-game implementation here is a definable pseudo save mode at best... That being said, all laws in general require that a stated definable item.object of value be exchanged with the payer by the payee. If the receipt of said value occurs on a random risk based percentage of the time versus the total of all transacted exchanges, then ladies and gentlemen, we have a new horse altogether, and the name of the silly Philly is GAMBLING. Yes indeed, E.D. is quite possibly in Business truth an actual Piece of Casino furniture, otherwise known as a, "One Armed Bandit." Upon the examination of the applied and embodied rules within this game, not some of them, but actually all are indeed not constant. The attrition scales in a non linear & inconstant fashion at the precise and very critical moments of simulation when preservation of player's ability to retain / preserve any form of possessed "In Game Content" transpire. The formula is clear, and direct in its application. Player's content is to be and will be, "reduced", and Frontier's Server space which is leased or Rented from Amazon at cost, is to be and will be factually, "INCREASED" and increase via Argumentum ad baculum ! That unfortunately is a definite ,"CONFLICT OF INTEREST." Sadly, many out there are not mentally capable of such deductive reasoning. That by the way, is not the responsibility of the intelligence possessing and game purchasing customer base. We pay for something that is stated to be offered to us at a given price. This present policy is also clearly affecting future designs of content that was clearly designable and offerable two(2) full decades ago ! This is one of the most severe, and maybe THE most severe failure of Design Policy within this Simulation/Game. Thankfully it can be corrected, and if this game is to be taken seriously in an sincere and HONEST manner, then change these issues of content and scope thereof must !

Here are some basic and historically provable facts about online game-play and content capacity versus what was technologically possible at the time.... Check them out people, and do not just take my word for anything here... Why do I provide this information ? Because Frontier's Programmers and Designers have put a lot of Blood Sweat and Tears into this Incarnation of Elite, and it almost completely shows except when a few very serious and absolutely unavoidable issues are examined outside of the area of focus the Hired corporate P.R. specialists attempt to force Customer attention towards. This capitulation comes as an unconditional and illegitimate form of Fallacy and possible customer fraud... and when these issues get examined under such resolution, that being one closer, than from 10 Zeta kilometers away, if you catch my Astronomical Drift, then one starts to perceive or identify the following issues:

20 years ago Multiplayer command of a minimum of 4 player controlled A.I. Wing-men was fully accomplished within the game of ...
IL-2 STURMOVIK, and within a bandwidth packet size which was a tiny fraction of today's typical 10-100 m.b.p.s. cable connectivity. Oleg Maddox of the 1C Company had to contend with 14.4-56k dial-up telephone modems with unimaginable levels of latency in comparison to today's cable/fiber optics internet connections... So while there is absolutely no question, What So Ever that we are getting lots of Eye Candy in Elite Dangerous, someone's, and I will not point fingers, but someone at Frontier, is Clearly preventing the Development of Proper and realizable content within this sim. The provable, and factual functional result of this person's authority to effect design limitations is that a provable and enormous amount of server space on Amazon's servers is simply not being used for it's stated purpose. I for one now formally make the demand that this policy be stopped immediately. Not next year, no 10 years from now... I mean stop it and that means now. I can provide the M.I.T. Mathematics's Doctorate level Professors, and Corporate Engineers and much more, that will make legally qualified statements of what is being done with the actual Server space and content within this game, and just as important, they will follow and map the Money Trail from beginning to END ! If this type of Dumbing Down of realizable features within M.M.O. games is allowed to continue, it is unquestionably a true statement that all Game Companies will sooner than later come under direct attack of organized crime entities for their property and possession. The end result will be the wholesale use of All online video games as cheaply disguised online Casino's for the singular purpose of defrauding the General Public and Tax Evasion, and Especially for the Mining of Crypto Currencies on a never before experienced scale at tremendous economic and international expense In this case Scotland Yard will be the Authority being skirted around. There appears to be quite a rampant attempt to create special interest laws at this time in response to the fact that several Software companies have already been caught running advanced Bit Coin Mining subroutines within the Online server space, and even on customers machines in several recent cases. It has recently been determined that organized crime costs the EU economy about €110 billion. If I am CENSORED and SILENCED from this FORUM, that will be the final straw here. Factually I will contact Scotland yard, as well as Numerous Professors in the UK all involved in the process of counteracting Cyber-crime, and a real and sincere accounting will take place. This will not be initiated by a off teen, but rather by an Engineer of some 30 years and at 55 Y.O.A.... In other words, no P.R. schmooze or logical set of Fallacies are going to deter me. More over, I will not be financially , "Deterred." Greed will not remove me from the table. I stand firmly one the side of the Customer base and the youth's who are not yet able to perceive exactly how they are being taken advantage of as of yet, but who are put off, when they try to request changes be made to content in this game. They are told, "The Group Voted Against Your Idea's". They do not yet know how to counter this very typical application of the logical"Bandwagon" Fallacy, being used to deter their honest inquiries. David, this is directly to you. You have the ability to order content correction and changes in general. As much as I respect your accomplishments within the field of technology, and especially your invention of intellectual property, I am astounded at the suspensions of applied physics withing the sim, as acts of direct attrition and forced denial/removal of paid for player content, as well as the direct avoidance and denial of well established abilities withing the coding framework of online gaming structure. the levels being logically denied to the paying customer base here within Elite Dangerous approach (20) Twenty Years, TWO DECADES David. Well, we don't need Oleg Maddox to come before a Trial Jury in Court and show the jury how the missing abilities can be applies, Just like he did 20 years ago... Or do we David ? You must know David, that I am posting this out of the full knowledge and respect for your abilities. I know fully well that you can implement player abilities far beyond anything that Oleg Maddox did 20 years ago. This Simulation has had too much support from Fans and too much work from honest coders and artists to just end up as a piece of, "Deception-Ware". If You choose to implement the true ability that can be made available to the customer base here, then I will remain a Fan of your Game series, but this present incarnation of the series, has clearly discernible conflicts of interest between server space usage and the 100 % of that usage which should be used only by the player, as well as what current online content can accomplish. I trust you will quietly restore this David, and I also suggest you restore truthful expression of physics within Elite Dangerous, to Include in a truthful Manner, "Extropic Function of Universe." Better no Coin at all than half the Coin David. 50% of the picture results in error exceeding 75% of possible legitimate physics structures. So David I could have gone straight to Scotland Yard and provided a Research Paper level of explanation and simply allowed them to end Frontier Development, as well as the jobs and Careers of several hundred innocent people, and all truth be told the guilty party might well have left the U.K never to return or to face any real punitive rewards for the action they have practiced upon so many. That, however, is not a way in which Online Simulation of Human Endeavors will be able to continue to develop. The loss of trust, and the drying up of development capitol will be catastrophic, to a long standing point that no P.R. corporate censorship firm will ever be able to compensate for. No one who loves space sims or sims of any kind wants that David, but we must stand up against the intent of organized crime and its utter intent to take over any industry it perceives can be a foundation for illegitimate profiteering, and for the mas laundering of other ill-begotten funds. This issue is certainly no laughing matter, and any company that espouses the belief of invulnerability, reveals their innermost mindset to be one in the same with, "The Fool".

Can we get a TL;DR version of this? Boil it down or something? Short version? Great Wall of Text over here is painful to read.
 
Lol you rekt that first guy. Frontier outright says it's dangerous. As for the other guy I've seen longer walls of text but he should paragraph edit it.

But go and check what Braben himself has said about the title of the game. The "its called [title here]" argument (and I am using the loosest possible definition of the word "argument" here), is absolute crap. Go try again.
 
He thinks David Braben is using ED to mine bitcoin by hijacking our systems because a flight simulator in the 90s had multiplayer over dial up.
 
Can we get a TL;DR version of this? Boil it down or something? Short version? Great Wall of Text over here is painful to read.

I can give you a TL; DR: I would like to try that stuff he smokes. I've read through that post and wondered if he used some speech generator or something. Or was totally wasted. Either way, trippy as hell.
 
I think the whole ‘griefing’ issue needs to be put in context within the game. Sandy, Ed, and others have talked about this ‘karma’ system and I prefer this as an automated system response to behavior which then adds more to the gameplay than arbitrary decisions by so called ‘judges’. And I say this from the standpoint of having been one of those judges in a seriously OP ship for a different space game in another time.
First to consider is the significant differences between:
1. Roleplay – e.g. pirate vs trader
2. Powerplay – undermine vs expansion
3. Abuse – repeated harassment or bullying
One and two are desirable within a game context and, generally, most people will agree that number 3 is not desirable in a public space.
So the question is: how do you make one and two okay with rules and three not okay, also with rules.
One and two should be reasonably easy to address:
1. It is acceptable for a player to attack another player anywhere, at any time.
2. It is not acceptable to avoid being attacked / killed by logging off intentionally (combat logging) and either respawning in Private / Solo or logging back on to Open in 10 minutes time to avoid the pirate.
3. If a player attacks another player then there should be role play consequences in the game.
4. The security force in the system should respond to the attack by attacking the attacker (one assumes that the law wants to maintain security in their system to enhance trade).
5. The attacker automatically suffers penalties to reputation in the system as a result of disrupting trade routes.
6. If the resulting loss in reputation is sufficient then the attacker becomes ‘permanently wanted’ and is no longer allowed access to the affected factions systems or docking areas.
7. The attacker can amend their reputation by undertaking missions with allies of the offended faction, or by attacking enemies of the offended faction.
8. The attacker cannot buy-off their bounty (Too easy get out).
9. The change to reputation, and the response by the security force, is proportional to the Rank of the attacker. E.g. an elite player will be assailed by heavier class security ships and an elite player will get a higher reputation loss multiplier for every attack / kill.
10. The change to reputation and security response to the attack is proportional to the security in the system, e.g. High security = maximum response, low security = limited response.
11. If a player, or group of players kill camp in a single system then its security rating will rise over time proportional to the number of attacks / kills occurring within that system.
12. Players attacking players in an anarchic system will only get a response based on changes to reputation i.e. there is no generic security force but if you annoy one faction enough then they will turn hostile, as will their bases.
13. These rules would also apply for Powerplay initiatives.
14. Combat logging applies a ‘cooldown period’ on logging on to Open server (soft boot).

I see these rules as applying an RPG / faction balance adjustment. Pirates exist and there is not necessarily anything wrong with that but actions have consequences. As a result, existing in a largely law abiding bubble, pirates (violent crime) should be most active in anarchic independent systems or on the periphery of ‘society’, and higher security law abiding systems should be harder to operate in – as is the case with real world crime and punishment. This should make traders consider their routes – safe routes would be through high security systems that are run by strong factions or powers, while less safe routes are further out and may include independent and anarchic systems. Trade prices could then be adjusted to balance – you can choose to go via a less secure system and run the chance of being pirated or, stick to high security systems and be less prone to attack but also get less profit per run.
Roleplay rules do not need to be complex but they should be balanced: - if you attack someone in law abiding space there should be consequences and the consequences may be permanent e.g. if you amass a high enough bounty it may be that it cannot be paid-off at all and that you would either have to ‘serve a sentence’ or spend a lot of time repairing your rep.

To some extent these rules may help in reducing item 3 but not wholly I would think. In that case I think the so-called Karma System is an idea but how might that work?
1. It is acceptable for a player to attack another player anywhere at any time.
2. It is not acceptable to avoid being killed by logging off intentionally (combat logging) and either respawning in Open or logging back on in 10 minutes time to avoid the pirate.
3. If a player attacks another player then there should be consequences in the game.
4. Every player has a ‘hidden’ karma rating held by the server.
5. If a player initiates an attack against another player, it adds negative karma to their account.
6. If the player initiating the attack is of a significantly higher rank than the attacked then it has a negative karma multiplier e.g. elite vs harmless.
7. If the player initiating the attack is in a much heavier class ship then it has a negative karma multiplier e.g. Conda vs sidewinder.
8. If the player initiating the attack repeatedly kills the player it has a negative karma multiplier for each successive attack / kill.
9. Once the negative karma indicator hits a certain trigger value then all security forces become hostile excepting anarchic systems (refer security responses above).
10. Once the negative karma indicator hits a certain trigger value then the player is set into a ‘cooldown’ period where they cannot fly (any ship) in Open game (soft boot). Once the cool down period has elapsed they may rejoin Open.
11. The karma indicator has a natural decay rate so that if a player does not engage in any negative rated activity for a period of time it will, eventually return to neutral.
12. Combat logging applies a ‘cooldown period’ on logging on to Open server (soft boot).

To enable consenting PVP play – Fdev could set-up pockets of independent anarchic systems around the bubble where these rules do not apply so players can enjoy consensual PVP play without penalty.
It won’t please everybody but I think it might be considered a discussion point.
 
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Can we get a TL;DR version of this? Boil it down or something? Short version? Great Wall of Text over here is painful to read.

Yeah, I like reading everybody's opinions here (even the inane ones) but I tried, and just couldn't do it. Cliff Notes version, please.
 
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Solo play is the way I'm going. Getting tired of getting killed without chances of survival and no repercussions to the killer.
 

verminstar

Banned
Why are you spamming all these old threads back to life? Ye made yer point and FD couldnt care less anyway so why make such a mess with threads that really should have been left to die?

Because people who might be interested in C&P can be found on these threads and I have referenced a few of these old threads also. Maybe FD couldn't care less, maybe they could. I've just spent a bit of time thinking about how to improve C&P for my own amusement/sanity. Now it's done can get on with with other stuff now. What's it to you anyway? Are you the forum spammer jammer?
 
Why are you spamming all these old threads back to life? Ye made yer point and FD couldnt care less anyway so why make such a mess with threads that really should have been left to die?

Thanks Mr FD spokes person for your perceived sabre-rattling on behalf of the whole community...

If you're not interested, just move on; It's far simpler than spouting negativity... As Elver has said, some folks might be interested. If they are they can read. If they're not, they can ignore. No harm really done!
 
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Greetings,

With thousands of posts over a number of years about dealing with griefers with no real solutions why don't we take it to the next level?

We are on a Forum. We have Moderators. From what I have seen they cannot remove a post (or maybe they can but choose not to) but can move posts to the appropriate sub forum and close them when appropriate.

Maybe we should have Moderators in the game as well. They cannot change the status of a player's account but will be flying around in Imperial Couriers with unlimited shielding and massive weapons only the top three ships have access to. In FE2 I had an Eagle with a Plasma Accelerator and a 3000LY jump range. Easy to do in ED. Thus when griefers are identified in a system they are going to have serious issues when the Moderators show up. Community Goals are different but new players getting killed just starting the game or those moments as in the current Beta 2.3 testing when many greifers take advantage of live players they will meet the Moderators.

There is no solution between PvE and PvP. Frontier maybe missed this point. There are different approaches to the game and will always be in conflict. So if we nerf the balance towards PvP maybe Moderators with serious ships could make a difference. Nothing else has worked so far.

Just an idea. Discuss/debate it but if it turns into a yelling fest like so many posts do then I'll ask a Moderator to close it. I do wish when a few people arguing back and forth add so many posts one has to wade through versus intelligent discussion the Moderators could help. But I figure that they are limited. I feel your frustration!

Regards

This has already been resolved, and the solution is implemented on your start screen.
Simply select Private Group or Solo, and you will not have to contend with griefers or anyone at all.

Private Groups are moderated and those causing problems in the group can and are removed from the group.
Solo ensures the only thing you'll run into are NPC's and will never encounter a griefer at all.
 
This has already been resolved, and the solution is implemented on your start screen.
Simply select Private Group or Solo, and you will not have to contend with griefers or anyone at all.

Private Groups are moderated and those causing problems in the group can and are removed from the group.
Solo ensures the only thing you'll run into are NPC's and will never encounter a griefer at all.

So you're suggesting the multiplayer, PvP, and crime and punishment mechanics FD basically put in place at the beginning of the game, many of which were incredibly basic and a work in progress, are so perfect, there's no room for even discussing their improvement?

ps: I think they could be improved!

ps: I think they should be improved!

ps: I think they need to be improved!
 
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So you're suggesting the multiplayer, PvP, and crime and punishment mechanics FD basically put in place at the beginning of the game, many of which were incredibly basic and a work in progress, are so perfect, there's no room for even discussing their improvement?

ps: I think they could be improved!

ps: I think they should be improved!

ps: I think they need to be improved!

Nowhere did I say anything was perfect, merely that there is a solution to this problem already available until such a time that the current placeholder system is expanded.
 
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