Responce to Yamiks Shield Video.

[Bob Lighthouse]

On my first and so far only attempt at just killing the principal terrorist wing mission target then leaving, he was dead 1 minute and 40 seconds after my first trigger press. Obviously that could be reduced with practice and outfitting. It's much quicker just to wreck'n'run than to take on the whole wing.

Unfortunately as the mission rewards are the same for solo-ing a wing mission as for doing a regular assassination mission, there isn't really any incentive to do it at all except for the welcome personal PvE challenge.

Wow, that seems quick.
What are you using?

 

[Truesilver]

Wow, that seems quick.
What are you using?

Non-meta things...

...well, half-meta. The Devil's Own FdL.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Non-meta things...

...well, half-meta. The Devil's Own FdL.

Thanks.
It's not like I don't know what the weakest link is in my case, but I'm still glad you didn't say "Courier"!

 

[RagingxPenguin]

This is a surprising post! I enjoy watching you guys duke it out in your videos, and most of you seem to run fast FDLs with plasma and rails, and shields seem to go down pretty quickly - sometimes VERY quickly. Has something changed with the new engineering - are slower tankier ships coming into vogue again?

If it's a gank video the people they are shooting aren't that well outfit, and usually get deleted very fast.


If it's a PvP video most people are running biweaves and some very hard hitting builds. Basically if you get focused and can't break contact you are dead. These same builds would wipe the floor with a healthy portion of the player base (no disrespect meant. Its just a fact)

Slower tankier ships aren't really returning. A MJ stacked FDL is still hard to kill unless you're packing a phasing build. Otherwise you need to tear through shields that are nearing preengineer Cutter strength to put of into perspective.

 

[jasonbarron]

On my first and so far only attempt at just killing the principal terrorist wing mission target then leaving, he was dead 1 minute and 40 seconds after my first trigger press. Obviously that could be reduced with practice and outfitting. It's much quicker just to wreck'n'run than to take on the whole wing.

Unfortunately as the mission rewards are the same for solo-ing a wing mission as for doing a regular assassination mission, there isn't really any incentive to do it at all except for the welcome personal PvE challenge.

Damn, that's fast. I soloed 9x of them today as you said to provide myself a test since I hardly ever battle NPC's and wanted to see what I was missing. My battles, though, were not anywhere near as efficient as yours. Mine averaged 7-9 minutes and were a race to see if I would run out of ammo before they ran out of hull. A couple loadouts I tried with superpen rails I managed to kill them from sniping the PP's, but most of them were just tedious slogs through a bazilion SCB's and then the glorious relief once their shields finally went down.

Thanks.
It's not like I don't know what the weakest link is in my case, but I'm still glad you didn't say "Courier"!

Metoo.

Non-meta things...

...well, half-meta. The Devil's Own FdL.

I don't know what that means, and I wish I did

 

[Frenotx]

If it's a gank video the people they are shooting aren't that well outfit, and usually get deleted very fast.


If it's a PvP video most people are running biweaves and some very hard hitting builds. Basically if you get focused and can't break contact you are dead. These same builds would wipe the floor with a healthy portion of the player base (no disrespect meant. Its just a fact)

Slower tankier ships aren't really returning. A MJ stacked FDL is still hard to kill unless you're packing a phasing build. Otherwise you need to tear through shields that are nearing preengineer Cutter strength to put of into perspective.

I'd say "unless you're packing reverb torps / mines", but hitting a well-flown FDL with those is... challenging, to say the least.

Damn, that's fast. I soloed 9x of them today as you said to provide myself a test since I hardly ever battle NPC's and wanted to see what I was missing. My battles, though, were not anywhere near as efficient as yours. Mine averaged 7-9 minutes and were a race to see if I would run out of ammo before they ran out of hull. A couple loadouts I tried with superpen rails I managed to kill them from sniping the PP's, but most of them were just tedious slogs through a bazilion SCB's and then the glorious relief once their shields finally went down.

Yeah, those SCBs are a chore. Very unsatisfying to fight against. "Ok, making good progress on their sh... welp. There it goes." What are your thoughts on the SCBs only working when you're rebuilding the shield? Instead of them extending the giant boring wall that is the shield, they'd be used to more quickly get the shield back up after it fell. Same number of added MJ in the fight potentially, but with opportunists for the opponent to actually feel like they're making progress. (at least 16 seconds after the shield fails- the delay before rebuilding starts.)

 

[jasonbarron]

I'd say "unless you're packing reverb torps / mines", but hitting a well-flown FDL with those is... challenging, to say the least.


Yeah, those SCBs are a chore. Very unsatisfying to fight against. "Ok, making good progress on their sh... welp. There it goes." What are your thoughts on the SCBs only working when you're rebuilding the shield? Instead of them extending the giant boring wall that is the shield, they'd be used to more quickly get the shield back up after it fell. Same number of added MJ in the fight potentially, but with opportunists for the opponent to actually feel like they're making progress. (at least 16 seconds after the shield fails- the delay before rebuilding starts.)

I only started doing combat post 2.1, so I don't remember SCB's being any other way. I think if I were going to try to farm these guys efficiently (by myself), I'd probably use a 5x PA FdL, with four Phasing & one TLB. Still don't know if I could do it as fast as Truesilver. Not that there would be any point; the rewards aren't very good, and it was only worth doing as a personal challenge for me. Still, kinda fun for a little while.

 

[Auronio]

Sounds like the PvP shield nerf thread slowly turned into a PvE wing assassination epeen thread.

As I most likely was one of the first trying to solo them without success three times today I slightly changed my setup and managed 4 in a row. 2x Corvette, 1x Cutter, 1x Anaconda, me in my Corvette with bi-weaves and 2x 7A SCBs. 5x efficient beams, 2x efficient multi-cannons. Not to forget my new SLF hire who today reached competent.

I believe I will continue these cause it's an excellent way to grind MEF.

 

[Frenotx]

Even if shields are nerfed in some way, SCBs remain in a problematic state. Weaker starting shield caps will just make the SCBs represent a larger percentage of total health. The only thing keeping them in check is a) only available to horizons players (engineering special effect), and b) is a very all-or-nothing, rock-paper-scissors check. Without the counter you're severely disadvantaged if your opponent is bank tanking. If you DO have the counter (and you're faster than them), then they've mostly wasted a bunch of internals. It's really just not a good situation good.

 

[Riverside]

Even if shields are nerfed in some way, SCBs remain in a problematic state. Weaker starting shield caps will just make the SCBs represent a larger percentage of total health. The only thing keeping them in check is a) only available to horizons players (engineering special effect), and b) is a very all-or-nothing, rock-paper-scissors check. Without the counter you're severely disadvantaged if your opponent is bank tanking. If you DO have the counter (and you're faster than them), then they've mostly wasted a bunch of internals. It's really just not a good situation good.

I share your view on SCBs, I'd be happy if those and other stat buffing modules were removed from the game completely. But with massive shields there is a cost in how long they take to recharge, and SCB cells cannot be restocked on the fly so they are at least a valuable commodity to the pilot who cannot easily dock.

I'd be in favour of shield recharge being another docking service that is removed with anonymous access. If you're docked anonymously the shield shouldn't even recharge at it's normal rate imo, to discourage pad blocking.

 

[XW_Ziggy]

IMO shields shouldn't be so strong:

• Shield SCBs require one keypress in combat to get your shield back; Repairing your hull isn't even possible at all and you have to DISABLE modules in order to slowly manually repair each of them with the awkward right-panel interface. This is not really an in-combat thing even if you are nimble-fingered with the right-panel under pressure.
• Shields can be recovered to 50% out of combat with a R&R for free. Hull tanks don't have that option for their hull or modules.
• Shields slowly regenerates automatically, hull does not. Full shield regeneration is accelerated in supercruise so you can run away to regen very quickly and then immediately interdict again. Hull tanks really suck for back-to-back repeat skirmishes.
• Shields mean that your canopy can't be destroyed, your modules all work and you can engineer for low-integrity/high-dps/low-mass; Hull tanks must give up jumprange, speed, agility, dps and output to increase module integrity or suffer the consequences of earlier malfunctions.
• Shields protect against area damage like explosives/penetrator rounds/high-yield. Hulls take EXTRA damage from these things AND they affect multiple modules simultaneously.
• Shields completely protect against crippling debuffs like corrosive rounds and scramble spectrum, hulls obviously do not.
• Shields can be boosted with utility slots, normal slots, and military slots; Hulls cannot be boosted by utility slots and the AMFU does not fit in a military slot.
• Shields prevent individual modules from being sniped. Even with phasing sequence on a sub-targeted module, the bleed-through damage is only to the hull, not the module! Hull tanks know all about module sniping, and how quickly the MRPs become useless, dead-weight.
• Shield failure does not result in being sent to the rebuy screen; Hull failure is usually expensive and inconvenient.

So, why - EXACTLY - would anyone want to hull-tank when it's still just so blatantly inferior to shield-tanking in almost every single way?

FD need to improve the outlook for hull tanks - either by weakening shields (which results in community backlash with outbursts and whining) or by improving the QoL of a hull tank in combat by attempting to balance or at least partially balance each and every point on the list above.

I've just thought of another advantage of shield tanking over hull tanking:

• Shields absorb damage for free; Repairing modules, hull integrity, ship integrity, and military composites can get really expensive.

 

[Frenotx]

Someone posted a Vulture video too.
I found the differing strategies between that one and the above two really interesting.
That came up briefly in a thread with Truesilver and Aashenfox as I recall; the merits of focusing on the target itself, vs breaking down the wing.

I kill everyone in sight with my Corvette, and just take out the big one first.
Threat 5, wing assassination missions.
I do that as a quick way to farm mats actually.

You can stack them and have a second one spawn while you're already starting to engage!
That was a fun eye-opener but I still finished them both the time it happened to me (Corvette).

I'm trying them in my Courier now.
The problem I have when trying to break up the wing is the target will eventually flee before I can kill everyone else.
If I find them again all the ships I already killed have respawned...
Not so with my ammo!
Trying to kill just the target itself ends up with me taking too much damage.
Need more evasion/chaff etc I suppose...

It's difficult to see in my video with the viper, but I'm constantly adjusting my vector to try and work in as much evasion as possible, while still sticking close to the target. I attempt to put the target between me and the rest of the wing as much as I could (use them like a shield), but didn't do a wonderful job of it that time. The

 

[lecorsobreton]

It's difficult to see in my video with the viper, but I'm constantly adjusting my vector to try and work in as much evasion as possible, while still sticking close to the target. I attempt to put the target between me and the rest of the wing as much as I could (use them like a shield), but didn't do a wonderful job of it that time. The

I've watched both the chieftain and your viper's video and while amazing (too bad you hit the wreckage!), it just underlines even further the SCB rampant spamming from NPC. It seems they don't fry themselves and have several banks installed it seems. Using a SCB should take a toll on your ship's shield generator and PP. I must hone my piloting skills, that's for sure ^_^

 

[Frenotx]

I've watched both the chieftain and your viper's video and while amazing (too bad you hit the wreckage!), it just underlines even further the SCB rampant spamming from NPC. It seems they don't fry themselves and have several banks installed it seems. Using a SCB should take a toll on your ship's shield generator and PP. I must hone my piloting skills, that's for sure ^_^

SCB spam is annoying, for sure. NPCs don't fry because they use heatsinks, though. I stayed close enough for it to not matter, but if you're fighting from further away you'll often lose target lock on NPCs when they deploy their SCB- that's their signature dropping due to the heatsink icing them up.