Yep. Engineered shields often end up being more resistant to thermal than kinetic, throwing all initial weapon balance and design on its head. Since energy weapons are generally less capacitor-efficient to use, your effective DPS via lasers would likely be notably lower. You wouldn't have to reload, but you would need more time, and less pips in ENG and/or SYS.
Responce to Yamiks Shield Video.
- Thread starter SoundestCat4341
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Yep. Engineered shields often end up being more resistant to thermal than kinetic, throwing all initial weapon balance and design on its head. Since energy weapons are generally less capacitor-efficient to use, your effective DPS via lasers would likely be notably lower. You wouldn't have to reload, but you would need more time, and less pips in ENG and/or SYS.
hm purely regarding PvP:
Looking at medium-sized ships, especially the FDL, I agree shields might be a bit too strong. On the other hand then I wonder why the FAS and recently also the Chieftain are quite competetive in PvP. You might also argue then that full hull tanks with HRPs, MRPs, shielded FSD and armoured PP are a bit OP (except against some special weapons maybe). I see quite some of them flying around in PVP, and they seem to do ok. The advantage then is that you dont have to stick 4 pips to system, so you can move around a lot more and put out more damage.
With respect to the Cutter, yeah that one is ridiculous...
Looking at medium-sized ships, especially the FDL, I agree shields might be a bit too strong. On the other hand then I wonder why the FAS and recently also the Chieftain are quite competetive in PvP. You might also argue then that full hull tanks with HRPs, MRPs, shielded FSD and armoured PP are a bit OP (except against some special weapons maybe). I see quite some of them flying around in PVP, and they seem to do ok. The advantage then is that you dont have to stick 4 pips to system, so you can move around a lot more and put out more damage.
With respect to the Cutter, yeah that one is ridiculous...
Yamik is absolutely spot-on, and with 3.0.3 power-creep this is reaching insane results.
Let me bring to your attention my current FdL build; I ditched the heat sinks/SCB completely, as most competent players can render them useless nowadays, in favour of one more booster and HRP/MRP.
It has over 3.600 Mj and 1.600 armor with high resistances.
Pretty much everyone I dueled against ran out of plasma/rail slugs before killing me, not to mention that the fight itself was over 20 minutes long, which is really starting to get tiresome. Meanwhile, Plasma damage output is still the same because nobody in his right mind runs anything other than the usual Efficient / Long Range / Focused.
I humbly suggest that the effect of ALL mods to HRP/Shields/Shield Booster should be halved. Just flat out halved or even more, I see no other possibility.
I think I will be ditching high-end PvP and start challenging people exlcusively using Eagles with fixed kinetic weaponry. Much, much more *FUN* this way.
Let me bring to your attention my current FdL build; I ditched the heat sinks/SCB completely, as most competent players can render them useless nowadays, in favour of one more booster and HRP/MRP.
It has over 3.600 Mj and 1.600 armor with high resistances.
Pretty much everyone I dueled against ran out of plasma/rail slugs before killing me, not to mention that the fight itself was over 20 minutes long, which is really starting to get tiresome. Meanwhile, Plasma damage output is still the same because nobody in his right mind runs anything other than the usual Efficient / Long Range / Focused.
I humbly suggest that the effect of ALL mods to HRP/Shields/Shield Booster should be halved. Just flat out halved or even more, I see no other possibility.
I think I will be ditching high-end PvP and start challenging people exlcusively using Eagles with fixed kinetic weaponry. Much, much more *FUN* this way.
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That +1.
Also conda/corvette and FDL shields are all in the God like department, not just the cutter. The cutter is just reaching mind boggling non sense values.
Thermal will be of no help on a thermal shield with two resistant boosters.
If the resistance limits where at stock resistances plus 50%, if would let thermal weapons keep an edge over kinetic.
Also hull is pathetic and bulkhead are just a waste of money and weight in most cases.
If shields where partial protection based on the number of ring it would make things more interesting. Like 3 rings : 100%, 2 rings : 75%, 1 ring : 50%
Same goes if armor and hull where two distinct things : for example if HRPs where armour needing to be ablated before getting significant breach chances, hull tanking would get more viable.
Except: shields can be made roughly 2.5x tougher by putting 4 pips to systems, which isn't included in the headline strength shown on the 3rd-party sites (they will show the effects elsewhere).
Redo your calculations with that, and basically every ship gets more shields than hull, and many get several times more shields than hull.
Not only shields are over powered. The whole system is completely out of balance.
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Built on extremes, that premise is.
Not nearly everybody flies around in a Cutter, not nearly everybody has prismatic shields.
Approximately half a year ago, I was on open, flying an Asp Scout with a shield of about 200 (bi-weave). No extra armour (couldn't afford that). A CMDR jumped in and killed me with TWO volleys. Count 'em, TWO. First volley took down my shields and half my hull, the second finished me.
Given the consequences of "dying," I don't mind having strong shields, and bleed-through damage would result in people returning every five minutes to base (I know I would). I'm way too old for temper tantrums, but if FD listened to that proposal, I would ditch ED and move on. Not because I'm a crybaby, but simply because I have neither the time, nor the talent to become a guy who beats an Elite Anaconda with a stock Sidewinder. Sorry, masochism isn't my thing.
(I spent, between two accounts, two years to get my backside in a Corvette, which should show that I don't give up easily.)
Not nearly everybody flies around in a Cutter, not nearly everybody has prismatic shields.
Approximately half a year ago, I was on open, flying an Asp Scout with a shield of about 200 (bi-weave). No extra armour (couldn't afford that). A CMDR jumped in and killed me with TWO volleys. Count 'em, TWO. First volley took down my shields and half my hull, the second finished me.
Given the consequences of "dying," I don't mind having strong shields, and bleed-through damage would result in people returning every five minutes to base (I know I would). I'm way too old for temper tantrums, but if FD listened to that proposal, I would ditch ED and move on. Not because I'm a crybaby, but simply because I have neither the time, nor the talent to become a guy who beats an Elite Anaconda with a stock Sidewinder. Sorry, masochism isn't my thing.
(I spent, between two accounts, two years to get my backside in a Corvette, which should show that I don't give up easily.)
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Well, I think one sad thing about this is that there is a lot of cool gear to be had in the utility slots, but you sort of have to ignore most of it because shield boosters are so insanely powerful.
A solution (if we need one) could be to move shield boosters to the optional internals with a scale-system (say... 1 through 7) with a limit of 1, and perhaps move interdictor and scanner to utility slots.
But it's not like the current system doesn't work or anything, it just feels a little cramped imo.
A solution (if we need one) could be to move shield boosters to the optional internals with a scale-system (say... 1 through 7) with a limit of 1, and perhaps move interdictor and scanner to utility slots.
But it's not like the current system doesn't work or anything, it just feels a little cramped imo.
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Built on extremes, that premise is.
Not nearly everybody flies around in a Cutter, not nearly everybody has prismatic shields.
Approximately half a year ago, I was on open, flying an Asp Scout with a shield of about 200 (bi-weave). No extra armour (couldn't afford that). A CMDR jumped in and killed me with TWO volleys. Count 'em, TWO. First volley took down my shields and half my hull, the second finished me.
Given the consequences of "dying," I don't mind having strong shields, and bleed-through damage would result in people returning every five minutes to base (I know I would). I'm way too old for temper tantrums, but if FD listened to that proposal, I would ditch ED and move on. Not because I'm a crybaby, but simply because I have neither the time, nor the talent to become a guy who beats an Elite Anaconda with a stock Sidewinder. Sorry, masochism isn't my thing.
Two things : no need of prismatic for very high values, nor cutter. Any ship with 6 utility slots or more will work for God shields.
6 boosters are about +400% effective shielding IIRC.
Bleedtrough would be fine if and only if : ablative armour distinct from hull. And : armour can be repaired with AFMU in the field. Because, indeed otherwise we will all be running all the time to stations like headless chickens.
If AFMU would have the ability to repair the armour, ships could hull tank / take bleedtrough damage, finish/escape from the fight and repair. Then keep going.
It would make packing SCBs vs AFMU a real choice: try to keep 3 rings at any cost, or take the hit and repair afterward ?
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... I little wonder why you guys always use as example just this one clearly unbalanced overpowered ship (cutter). Try your counts versus other normal ships
Other ships than Prismatic Cutter actually have far higher effective HP. If I had to tank damage for a given time, with my RL house resting on the outcome, I would not request a Cutter. I would use FdL or other PvP variants.
This illustrates the true extent of this monstrous defensive power creep: there are ships with even greater survivability, even staying in range at all times, than an 11,300 Mj build.
This also is why I personally am not saying 'nerf HD boosters then everything is fine' (which in truth is just public execution of the big ships) - the entire issue of defensive power creep needs addressing holistically.
^^ Correct.
Stationary Cutter with an AFK CMDR?
*launches barrage of Reverb Torpedoes*
I like your posts in general, Truesilver, but from time to time you do tend to set up strawmen arguments like the above
Stationary Cutter with an AFK CMDR?
*launches barrage of Reverb Torpedoes*
I like your posts in general, Truesilver, but from time to time you do tend to set up strawmen arguments like the above
And this is _precisely_ why nobody PvP's with the big three (four?), and why Truesilver mentioned in a real-world scenario he'd prefer a faster ship.
Stationary Cutter with an AFK CMDR?
*launches barrage of Reverb Torpedoes*
I like your posts in general, Truesilver, but from time to time you do tend to set up strawmen arguments like the above
NPCs have access to reverb torps ? Omg ! where ?
Besides, afk CZ is 100% doable: take npc pilot and fighter. Take fighter to edge of CZ. Let the npc murder the CZ. Check shield every 10-15 min or so.
If your npc has a high rank it's quite hilarious. My deadly npc (dead now due to thargoids, RIP) was doing it just fine with the corvette. "Only" 7K of effective shields, but still.
Y'know I think we've hit on a brilliant but simple idea for Frontier : NPC's should have Reverb Torps if a CMDR is sitting around AFK'ing in a god-shield Cutter
My second post, Genar, which you quote, was devoted to the question of PvE imbalance, by reference to the P.S. concerning PvE at the end of my first post.
But in PvE or PvP, the point is the same: 100% time on target with conventional weapons will get someone nowhere, very slowly.
Thank you.
And as torps travel at about one quarter of the speed of a Cutter and it takes 6 effective strikes to take down a size 8 Prismatic, they are anyway only relevant to surprising the easily surprised.
For PvP, see above. Yes indeed. We are all immortal.
Y'know I think we've hit on a brilliant but simple idea for Frontier : NPC's should have Reverb Torps if a CMDR is sitting around AFK'ing in a god-shield Cutter
What if he isn't AFK, just idly moving around slowly, blowing up everything without the slightest difficulty or peril, whilst occasionally using a second screen to post on forums to say that the game's difficulty is just right, PvP-ers (/challenge-seeking PvE-ers) should not be permitted to ruin it, and he really needs his shield?
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I'm now a bit sad that npcs don't have them.
Though silver bullet hard counters are the worse way to balance a game.
Still shields above 3K make for boring slugfest in any case. Good things there are thargoids otherwise I would never use my combat conda in PvE given how OP it is.
Though silver bullet hard counters are the worse way to balance a game.
Still shields above 3K make for boring slugfest in any case. Good things there are thargoids otherwise I would never use my combat conda in PvE given how OP it is.
Well yeah there is that point I didn't consider. But for PvE it shouldn't take too much code to detect a player AFK'ing in a god-shield Cutter, and to spawn a couple of Reverb Torp iCouriers to 'discourage' such behaviour.