Responce to Yamiks Shield Video.

Add reverb (ion, etc) mines to npcs and you have a balance :) (sorry couldn't resist) Imo is not possible balance game like ED, if you search balanced quick fight, load old freelancer.
 
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Yo dawg but I think missiles and torps should be WAY more deadly, would help against against the booster stacking. BUT ECM AND PD NEED TO BE GOOD TOO.
 
My second post, Genar, which you quote, was devoted to the question of PvE imbalance, by reference to the P.S. concerning PvE at the end of my first post.

But in PvE or PvP, the point is the same: 100% time on target with conventional weapons will get someone nowhere, very slowly.



Thank you.

And as torps travel at about one quarter of the speed of a Cutter and it takes 6 effective strikes to take down a size 8 Prismatic, they are anyway only relevant to surprising the easily surprised.



For PvP, see above. Yes indeed. We are all immortal.



What if he isn't AFK, just idly moving around slowly, blowing up everything without the slightest difficulty or peril, whilst occasionally using a second screen to post on forums to say that the game's difficulty is just right, PvP-ers (/challenge-seeking PvE-ers) should not be permitted to ruin it, and he really needs his shield?

Savage. It only frustrations with this post come from my inability to assign you more rep.
 
Well yeah there is that point I didn't consider. But for PvE it shouldn't take too much code to detect a player AFK'ing in a god-shield Cutter, and to spawn a couple of Reverb Torp iCouriers to 'discourage' such behaviour. ;)

Sure but it wouldn't fix the fact that npcs have ships10x weaker than players. A week or so with every npcs with deadly rank or above in PvP ship builds with G5 mods would make a holistic combat rebalance an easy sell ;)
 
Sure but it wouldn't fix the fact that npcs have ships10x weaker than players. A week or so with every npcs with deadly rank or above in PvP ship builds with G5 mods would make a holistic combat rebalance an easy sell ;)

Yeah I suppose you're right, as are the other posters.

Perhaps there should be a hard limit to shield strength across all ships - similarly, you can then decrease the rabidly powerful weaponry like frag cannons, railguns, plasmas etc.

Actually here's an interesting question : what is the ideal average time to kill a ship, whether in PvE or PvP? Is it seconds or minutes we're talking about here?
 
The issue isn't that shields are over powered. It's that NPC (and most player) builds don't carry counters to it. After all, if you just neuter shields all players will do is bug out quicker as soon as their shields go down.

So it doesn't increase difficulty, it just decrease the amount of time a player will spend actually doing something and increase the amount of time they spend waiting for something to recharge.

Trying to solo a wing assassination mission is a start with the engineered 'boss' ships and indeed that is the direction Fdev have stated they are going and it's the right way.

Vary opposing ship builds, have them spawn depending on where they are from and your reputation with them, but most of all change their behaviour so as to make reverski and exploiting the AI more difficult. Just changing the values of something is a very simplistic and historically ineffective thing to do.
 
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I think that npcs should be at least be able to drop my shield at 10 vs 1 when in a big 3.

20-40min PvP duel is definitely too long IMO.

As the game name suggest, one should never feel fully safe, no matter the gear and game mode.

As per the ideal time : 5 min FDL/vulture PvP battles felt right at the time.
 
Shields are not fine in PvE. They are so far out of balance that they are effectively handicapping CMDRs' flight skills due to over-reliance. Furthermore, hull tanks straight up scare many commanders because of the proposition of actually taking damage. There's a lot of ship variety out there that people are afraid to even pursue.

If you think you need amazing shields to survive a gank attempt from another player, please google Rinzler's guide to trading in open. He lets an elite PvPer interdict him and gets through the whole encounter unscathed. Rinzler was flying an unengineered Type 7 and downgrading the shield generator.

We need to get the training wheels off for the good of the game.
 
That was more of a mild rebuke than 'savage'. ;)

I tend to operate in a (possibly excessively) professional manner, and TS seems to do the same. A mild rebuke in that context might as well be an orbital strike.

Shields are not fine in PvE. They are so far out of balance that they are effectively handicapping CMDRs' flight skills due to over-reliance. Furthermore, hull tanks straight up scare many commanders because of the proposition of actually taking damage. There's a lot of ship variety out there that people are afraid to even pursue.

If you think you need amazing shields to survive a gank attempt from another player, please google Rinzler's guide to trading in open. He lets an elite PvPer interdict him and gets through the whole encounter unscathed. Rinzler was flying an unengineered Type 7 and downgrading the shield generator.

We need to get the training wheels off for the good of the game.

Hear hear. Nice to see a kindred spirit.
 
The issue isn't that shields are over powered. It's that NPC builds don't carry counters to it. After all, if you just neuter shields all players will do is bug out quicker as soon as their shields go down.

So it doesn't increase difficulty, it just decrease the amount of time a player will spend actually doing something and increase the amount of time they spend waiting for something to recharge.

Trying to solo a wing assassination mission is a start with the engineered 'boss' ships and indeed that is the direction Fdev have stated they are going and it's the right way.

Vary opposing ship builds, have them spawn depending on where they are from and your reputation with them, but most of all change their behaviour so as to make reverski and exploiting the AI more difficult. Just changing the values of something is a very simplistic and historically ineffective thing to do.

Ah but you forget this is a multiplayer Elite game - which has it's motley collection of PvP players, who also have a finger in the pie. And to them, shields are too strong which can make one or two ships nigh on impossible to explode.

So they cite PvE examples as well as 'time to kill takes too long'. Which are very valid points all the same.

I'd like to know the answer to this question: What is the ideal time-to-explosion which would satisfy all player types?

I mean, it's all very well lamenting that time-to-kill can be too long during PvP - but I've yet to see a figure on what the ideal time-to-KABLOOEY! actually is ;)
 
I tend to operate in a (possibly excessively) professional manner, and TS seems to do the same. A mild rebuke in that context might as well be an orbital strike.

I tend to operate in a mostly professional manner - but with a dollop of irreverence and flippancy bludgeoned in as well, because life's too short to be boringly professional all the time.

And TS's mild rebuke ran like water of this duck's back ;)
 
Actually here's an interesting question : what is the ideal average time to kill a ship, whether in PvE or PvP? Is it seconds or minutes we're talking about here?

Yes, you are absolutely right that this is the true question that Frontier and every interested customer needs to address.

Personally ...

20-40min PvP duel is definitely too long IMO.

As the game name suggest, one should never feel fully safe, no matter the gear and game mode.

As per the ideal time : 5 min FDL/vulture PvP battles felt right at the time.

... I agree with Muetdhiver.

I think that PvP duels felt best to me when a typical duel lasted about 3 mins, with an epic being 5 mins.

(Not saying that YouTube music picks should be the driving force here, but as an interesting aside, speaking as someone who likes to set PvP vids to music, that actually coincides with the pop convention as to listener attention span.)

Of course there should be a bell curve of outcomes, with some fights over in seconds, others taking longer, but personally, if we assume two PvP duellists in hard-ceiling ships, both of whom are skilled and experienced, I would go with 3-4 mins as the apex of the bell curve.

Concerning PvE, I hope that Frontier will make great strides forwards in terms of providing player-choice. Unlike many PvP-ers I actually have no problem at all with many, if not the majority perhaps, of players wanting to kill lots of NPC's quickly. Relaxation is a valid reason to buy a computer game.

So 'shooting gallery' areas like Nav Beacons should remain. But the current Wing Assassination missions, for example, should be developed further. I understand that there is a gradation from easy Nav / easy RES up to Haz RES / CNB / Hi-CZ but imo there is not enough gradation. The current Wing Assassination missions, let alone solo assassination, are far too easy if the only objective is to kill the principal target.

So my request for PvE would be 'give the player as much choice as possible, with a reasonable link between risk and reward'.

Hence in my scenario an apex PvE 1v1 would result in a similar TTK to PvP, as above.
 
I do like the idea of damage bleedthrough and the longer I play (and the more potent shields get) the more I like it. Having shielding block a proportion of hull damage relative to it's current integrity level and angle of attack, perhaps adding a corresponding degree of jitter as well, could be an interesting dynamic.

In my view there should be multiple counters to everything; universal defences are boring.

how about buffing lasers?

I feel it's the repeated augmentations to railguns and PA that are the real source of this issue.

Reducing damage drop off and improving hitscan weapons like lasers, just further encourages static, long range, shine-your-weapons-on-each-other-until-the-ship-with-inferior-damage/durability-folds, sort of gameplay.

... I little wonder why you guys always use as example just this one clearly unbalanced overpowered ship (cutter). Try your counts versus other normal ships :)

With how easy a Cutter is to get, it is a normal ship.

Regardless, the increases Engineering brought to shields applies to everyone, and anyone can build a ship that is largely immune to NPCs.

The problem is no matter how much you buff hull stats to soak damage, if you want to fly any of the Big Three (especially in Open, and against thargoids to a lesser extent especially against basilisk and medusa, the latter of which ripped my corvette to shreds) then you need high levels of shields.

Not really.

With the current way modules take damage the moment shields drop, things like Elite NPCs gain the ability to Module Snipe, and if you fly in Open that leaves players open to actually attacking and destroying you as you sit there with no powerplant and no thrusters or FSD due to something like High Yield Shell on Cannon.

Only if you are running low integrity internals with poor hull resistances and no module protection. The ships most vulnerable to high yield shell are also those that tend to be better at evading cannon fire and even basic levels of shielding will still enable one to escape.

Unless something has changed very recently, NPCs don't deliberately target modules either (though it would be nice if they did), even at Elite rank.

Reducing the relative potency of shields also works against both sides in a fight.

Stationary Cutter with an AFK CMDR?

*launches barrage of Reverb Torpedoes*

Need quite a few reverb torpedoes to bring down some of the bigger shield gens.

Perhaps there should be a hard limit to shield strength across all ships - similarly, you can then decrease the rabidly powerful weaponry like frag cannons, railguns, plasmas etc.

I really dislike hard limits and vastly prefer systems that discourage overspecialization via organic means.

Actually here's an interesting question : what is the ideal average time to kill a ship, whether in PvE or PvP? Is it seconds or minutes we're talking about here?

That's going to be highly subjective and situational.

I think the TTK was about right with smaller ships early on in the game's history. Fights could be quite protracted if one was evasive enough, but small ships could destroy each other in seconds if one was caught unawares, with defense generally scaling faster than offense as ships got larger and slower.

For me it's less about the time itself than the end result making sense. As it stands, with the arms race of offense vs. defense being almost unassailably in favor of defense currently, one would expect radical changes to military strategy and tactics...but the game doesn't behave that way. We'd also see the one reliable counter demonstrated so far (ATR's reverberating lasers) start to spread to other forces and other markets, until shielding was rendered completely obsolete. We'd thus come full circle and offense would be ascendant until defense caught up. The real world history of arms and armor are filled with such cycles.
 
I'd like to know the answer to this question: What is the ideal time-to-explosion which would satisfy all player types?
This depends on the repercussions, which the rebuy costs are a part of. Also you'd have to consider the TTK across all ships.
 
It's all out of whack. Just look at you asking for more power creep for the NPCs now. Engineers have already totally twisted how you perceive the game. If you just crank up the HP of NPC all across that won't work for new and non-horizon players.
 
Built on extremes, that premise is.

Not nearly everybody flies around in a Cutter, not nearly everybody has prismatic shields.

Approximately half a year ago, I was on open, flying an Asp Scout with a shield of about 200 (bi-weave). No extra armour (couldn't afford that). A CMDR jumped in and killed me with TWO volleys. Count 'em, TWO. First volley took down my shields and half my hull, the second finished me.

Given the consequences of "dying," I don't mind having strong shields, and bleed-through damage would result in people returning every five minutes to base (I know I would). I'm way too old for temper tantrums, but if FD listened to that proposal, I would ditch ED and move on. Not because I'm a crybaby, but simply because I have neither the time, nor the talent to become a guy who beats an Elite Anaconda with a stock Sidewinder. Sorry, masochism isn't my thing. :D (I spent, between two accounts, two years to get my backside in a Corvette, which should show that I don't give up easily.)
Are you on xbox? Was it a vulture...? *whistles as he walks away*

Tangent: I would like to see a removal of explosive resistances to shields and boosters, a 'natural resistance' of zero baselined across shields entirety, and a rebalance of explosives. Would this solve the issues? No clue, but making explosives worth a crap would be lovely.

Realism is a fleeting mistress in this game. It is there one minute, gone the next. Fun realism of explosives in space might be interesting. Self-oxidizing thermobarics can output >12Mj/kg with tech from the 60's (our time). Consider you can cram 400+kg in a tomohawk cruise missile, and suddenly the damage output of this game's explosives is rated somewhere between a hot fart and a Fourth of July economy pack of sparklers. Might also make some of the engineering effects *cough, high yeild, cough* convert to explosive.

Might make ecm more attractive on large ships, very attractive on small/meds and armor would be a must. Plus it would be fun as hell reading the Salt Lake Discussions when npc's start dozering with dumbfires. Just a thought. Not a solution.
 
It's all out of whack. Just look at you asking for more power creep for the NPCs now. Engineers have already totally twisted how you perceive the game. If you just crank up the HP of NPC all across that won't work for new and non-horizon players.

Indeed. This why this thread is all about making engineered player shields weaker.

All the talk about beefing up NPCs is to highlight that if that was to happen :

1) non Hz players would be unable to engage anything above a python due to the ginormous disparity.

2) a conda vs conda PvE fight would last 30min and be silly (Which where PvP is right now)

3) it would force FD to make a combat rebalance #1 priority due to the salt that would be generated.

In other words engineering has made player ships so unbalanced that if npc would have them the game would break down from the silliness.

Which is a strong argument in favour of a rebalance.
 
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Interesting discussion.

As I'm lazy and old of course I like that I'm nearly invincible in my Conda, Corvette or Cutter.
In PvE only.

In my highly engineered Conda I was grilled in half a minute twice in a CG from a 3xFDL/1xClipper wing.

Imho in majority of cases PvE is relatively easy. PvP you still have a high risk of being killed. At least if you are not a PvP pro.

But as I assume the majority here - claiming the current system being overpowered and asking for a nerf or re-balance - are end game players savvy with all tricks and experienced PvP veterans I would say that broad player base has not yet reached that level and might face more difficulties than an end gamer sees.

So the question is - and I don't have an easy answer - how to balance the game in a way to keep it both challenging for new and veteran players.

May I ask the veterans here how you are doing in your overpowered ships versus Thargoids (not scouts) in solo and how versus NPC wings of 6-7 ships when soloing a wing terrorist massacre mission?

In my personal experience Thargoids are end game content and very difficult to solo even in a highly overpowered player ship.

Terrorist wings in solo are highly challenging.

ATRs so far I wasn't able to win anything, I always high waked last second.

I believe at least in these cases I'm pretty happy my ships are slightly overpowered.

Imho.
o7
 
Indeed. This why this thread is all about making engineered player shields weaker.

All the talk about beefing up NPCs is to highlight that if that was to happen :

1) non Hz players would be unable to engage anything above a python due to the ginormous disparity.

2) a conda vs conda PvE fight would last 30min and be silly (Which where PvP is right now)

3) it would force FD to make a combat rebalance #1 priority due to the salt that would be generated.

In other words engineering has made player ships so unbalanced that if npc would have them the game would break down from the silliness.

Which is a strong argument in favour of a rebalance.

I'm not holding my breath. This issue was apparent shortly after engineer release already. If this was of concern, it should have been fixed already.
 
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