That's what the Thargoids were put in for - they are intended to be more challenging NPCs.
Responce to Yamiks Shield Video.
- Thread starter SoundestCat4341
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That's what the Thargoids were put in for - they are intended to be more challenging NPCs.
I've yet to see a thargoid. Also, NecMachina's suggestions seem very reasonable to me. Worth talking about anyway.
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I spent 18 months on a Grand Tour of the galaxy because I was fed up with predictable NPCs. They are only a part of the game.
Once you reach top tier equipment and you've got your technique down any game against NPCs is going to get repetitive, because you've done it all (all you are interested in). Exploration, BGS manipulation (board game PvP) and direct PvP are all activities that have no end. PvE combat isn't an end-game activity, it's practice while you level up, or a fun distraction while you do your main activity (eg BGS work). It's balanced by the NPCs, and if FDev think it's too easy they can adjust the NPCs, no need to adjust the players.
This issue of massive shields is a PvP one, but any solution needs to not be at the expense of players that don't participate in direct PvP. If it doesn't affect PvE it's much more likely to be well received. And if one cannot be found, the path of least resistance is inaction.
How Engineered mods affect gameplay 101:
Consider three playstyles: Solo, Co-op & PvP.
Playing alone (PvE), if you are good at combat, you can ignore Engineers, if you are less good you can use mods to improve your survivability & DPS.
Playing Co-op, you have a similar situation, and with special effects like healing it gives choices & allows each player in a wing to potentially specialise.
For PvP it is still viable to either agree certain rules on allowable mods or simply agree to not use any mods, the issue is more one of trust than anything else. For non-consensual, or free-form PvP there is an issue of escalation & the apparent desire to keep up with whatever the current meta is. This is where the Engineers creates issues, for any other play style one can either ignore mods altogether or they can be used to increase your options & variety of choice.
For any playstyle mods like lightweight components, or increased jump range can make a multi-role loadout more viable, or a specialised loadout even more optimised. It's a great addition to the game in many ways, only non-consensual, or freeform PvP has any downside at all really.
The way the Engineers have been implemented means that it 'encourages' you to explore aspects of the game that you might not have tried (eg mining, or travelling long distances), which is both a pro and a con, and the dice throw mechanism allows min-maxers to endlessly optimise to their hearts content while the regular player can simply have, more often than not, a straight upgrade in the direction they want.
My personal feeling is that if you are wanting to min-max your meta loadout for freeform PvP you should be prepared to put the effort in, just as you do with practising your skills, and if you just want to play the game, you can.
This imbalance of freeform PvP all started with SCBs, not Engineers. For all other play styles you simply have options to cover your particular short-comings as a Cmdr with extra equipment.
Originally posted here:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/340480-2-1-holding-the-game-back?p=5336494&viewfull=1#post5336494
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The good news is that once you fix it for one group, it will be fixed for everyone.
Go soloing Thargoids and you already easily can enjoy that challenge.
ATRs as the human NPC alternative.
Brainless KIs which will kill you.
What's the biggest non-engineered shield you can get in the game? Something like a Cutter with 8A prismatic & 8x A-rate shield boosters.
If the game had a hard cap on shield strength (all stats) at whatever that non-engineered max is, then engineering your shield & boosters becomes a slot saving mechanism - how efficiently you can max out your stats, using as few boosters (and as quick a regen etc) as possible.
What would that cap be (I'm not one for stats), and would it be enough?
If the game had a hard cap on shield strength (all stats) at whatever that non-engineered max is, then engineering your shield & boosters becomes a slot saving mechanism - how efficiently you can max out your stats, using as few boosters (and as quick a regen etc) as possible.
What would that cap be (I'm not one for stats), and would it be enough?
A last one today.
A lot of this useful discussion is based on the assumption or wish combat was or should be the main or most important activity in this game.
By purpose this game is meant to serve many desires and play styles / preferences.
There are many players around for which combat best case is an unwelcome interruption of their play style. Players who simply do not want to spend time and effort to become good in an activity they don't like.
Not everybody wants to be an Elite space soldier.
Still they have the same right to enjoy the game in a subjectively perceived dangerous game universe even if it's not.
Good night!
A lot of this useful discussion is based on the assumption or wish combat was or should be the main or most important activity in this game.
By purpose this game is meant to serve many desires and play styles / preferences.
There are many players around for which combat best case is an unwelcome interruption of their play style. Players who simply do not want to spend time and effort to become good in an activity they don't like.
Not everybody wants to be an Elite space soldier.
Still they have the same right to enjoy the game in a subjectively perceived dangerous game universe even if it's not.
Good night!
I'd love to see something about that. In general, the engineers giving you more options and flexibility (instead of just massive boosts in raw power) is my preferred design paradigm. Keeps the delta between a factory spec ship and an engineered one lower, allows the ship to feel more like "your" ship (instead just a standard-upgraded version of "a" ship), and makes engineering feel more like an optional journey instead of a necessary chore.
Hard caps like this are not my favorite. "I have another utility slot. Why can't I but another booster there?" Now if boosters had their own slots they went in where they were only competing for space with other shield-oriented modules (say in a sub-module slot of the shield generator, ala an SRV bay), then I'd REALLY be pleased.
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I agree the idea of a hard cap is pretty gamey, but so are dedicated slots
If I use a booster or two, it's not primarily to make the shield 'bucket' bigger, but to add complementary engineering upgrades. If those engineered boosters were only viable if they filled in a stat trough it would allow the fitment of as many as you like but for practical purposes you'd probably only need 2 or 3.
many of you seem to be missing the forest for the trees. shield capacities aren't really the issue, power is. reactor outputs and distributors. that is what needs to be looked at instead of shields.
besides, the cutter is the only ship that can get out of hand with shield capacity. scbs already have a hard counter, so the issue is power. i partially agree with the sentiment that you shouldn't be able to max out tank and still sling dps at the same time. tank, dps, speed is the triad here and you should only ever be able to pick 2.
besides, the cutter is the only ship that can get out of hand with shield capacity. scbs already have a hard counter, so the issue is power. i partially agree with the sentiment that you shouldn't be able to max out tank and still sling dps at the same time. tank, dps, speed is the triad here and you should only ever be able to pick 2.
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Outfitting should be about trade offs, not just A-rate and G5 everything.
And this is why the epitome of intelligent outfitting and skilled flying in ED was the pre-buff FdL, which existed from ED 1.2 to 1.4.
c5 plant. No engineering.
You could run SCB's. You could run rails'n'plasma. You could run full pulses. You could run 6 x A-rank boosters. But good griefer ... you couldn't do any of the things I just said at the same time.
Power was Frontier's original balancing mechanic. When credits still mattered, the entire process of progressively upgrading your new combat ship revolved around affording to upgrade its PP. Like many, I did this in sequence in Viper, then Vulture, then FdL, working the RES, the CG's and CZ's, eking out every ounce of power, weighing whether a utility slot should receive a C-rank booster or a D-rank, even after my PP was at max spec.
The product of this engagement was balanced duels that I will never forget between builds that really felt personally crafted - and ironically were so much less homogeneous than today.
It was sad to see engineering submerge it all beneath the dull waves of blandness.
I still remember one grimly prescient exchange between two noted pilots, and the wider player-base, on these forums in January 2016 (Beta 1.5, FdL buff to c6 plant announced). From memory:
Cmdr Alexander the Grape: "This is a mistake. The FdL will have enough power to fit any combination of loadout. Far more will be lost than achieved."
The Forum: "Burn the witch! You must be a rubbish pilot!! Idiot!!! Troll!!!! Give us our max OP FdL's now!!!!!"
Cmdr Elethiomel Zakalwe: "You see, Alex, most don't think like you. They just want to be handed the most powerful thing that they could possibly get."
*Sigh*
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It's not just the cutter that has shields that go out of hand.
The anaconda and corvette also have really strong shields. The corvette has about 20% less than the cutter which is still in the 7 to 8k effective. How is that not over board?
But yeah power management and the outfitting game are mostly gone. It's a thing only explorers and performance drives still have the joy to do.
The FDL should never have got that C6 pp. It was a silly decision and a very poor one.
The anaconda and corvette also have really strong shields. The corvette has about 20% less than the cutter which is still in the 7 to 8k effective. How is that not over board?
But yeah power management and the outfitting game are mostly gone. It's a thing only explorers and performance drives still have the joy to do.
The FDL should never have got that C6 pp. It was a silly decision and a very poor one.
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Having to choose between heavy offense and heavy defence? Hull tanking offering the advantage of more power for weapons? Needing to make concessions to take the "big hitter" weapons? Nope, just have it all. This is a great illustration of why it is often a bad idea to give players what they want. Quite often that ultimately dumbs the game down, and leaves people angry with the devs for making a boring game. If you ask most people if everyone should be given a million dollars, they'd say yes. Actually do it, and inflation would obliterate the currency and everyone would suffer.
But face it. Majority of players want quick wins.
Quick credits. Quick maxed engineers. Quick all ranks and all ships. Quick all triple Elite Admiral King.
20 hours from Sidewinder to Conda - which is easily achievable now - still too long of an effort for many.
In terms of business and the current ED business model it makes sense to attract new players and please them with some ease. The game in total is still sufficiently complex and diversified in order to keep every new player busy for months.
The slightly restricted view from the combat perspective only - particularly PvP - does not consider that many other activities work quite well and for a player where combat is only an intermezzo in between of other tasks when flying around overpowered ships work perfectly well and provide that nice feeling of supremacy even if that's an illusion when being confronted with other players.
The good old virtue of patience has went out of date.
Quick credits. Quick maxed engineers. Quick all ranks and all ships. Quick all triple Elite Admiral King.
20 hours from Sidewinder to Conda - which is easily achievable now - still too long of an effort for many.
In terms of business and the current ED business model it makes sense to attract new players and please them with some ease. The game in total is still sufficiently complex and diversified in order to keep every new player busy for months.
The slightly restricted view from the combat perspective only - particularly PvP - does not consider that many other activities work quite well and for a player where combat is only an intermezzo in between of other tasks when flying around overpowered ships work perfectly well and provide that nice feeling of supremacy even if that's an illusion when being confronted with other players.
The good old virtue of patience has went out of date.
Has Yamiks replied in this? Wanted to see if he could manage a forum post without his usual colourful turn of phrase and avoid a forum ban. 
Both happy and sad with that.
I don't really know much about Combat but I do agree with that. Everytime is see people saying the OP shields you can get with Engineering are a problem I just think "Nah, the overgarched powerplant is the problem". Remove that mod, adjust powerincrease of mods and we could have a much nicer balance across the board.
OP shields and Weapons are perfectly fine thing to exist in the game imo, but not having to sacrifice anything for it seems to me like one of the weirdest gamebalance decisions ever (no matter if its about PvE or PvP).