Modes Reworking the game modes

ALGOMATIC

Banned
Apparently the majority of players don't get involved in PvP though.

We can turn it around though. Players dont get invlvoved in PvP because PvP is a separate activity from PVE and the modes are the biggest contributer to this apart from the lacking content.

There is a thread in the PvP section about why PvP is not popular in ED, many answers revolve around it having no content.

Put content and more players will get involved.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Ugh its not a choice thing maynard. Its an efficiency thing.

That's rather an assumption and it takes no account of the fact that not all players enjoy / prefer PvP.

Besides you give any PVPer a powerup in any PVP game that gives them the chance to take objectives without fighting their opponents they are going to take it.

In a PvP game, yes - the CEO of this company has stated that this is not sold as a PvP game (but as a game where PvP can happen).

Its small because there is no NEED for it. We are asking for there to be a NEED for it. In a game where players are intentionally effecting each other anyways.

Again, an assumption. It may just be that players that prefer PvP constitute a minority of the player-base in any game that is not devoted to PvP.

Let us blow each other up.

You can - with other players who also prefer that play-style.

If you arent involved in it. Then nothing changes. You'll still have the option like everyone else. But lets not snub the good people asking for this. Just because its something you may not want changed.

There's no PvP gate to any game content (apart from CQC) in this game - by design.

That more than 3.25M franchise units of the game have sold based on this premise suggests that it is not an unpopular game design, on the whole, even if some players may have bought the game without fully reading the advertising.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
We can turn it around though. Players dont get invlvoved in PvP because PvP is a separate activity from PVE and the modes are the biggest contributer to this apart from the lacking content.

There is a thread in the PvP section about why PvP is not popular in ED, many answers revolve around it having no content.

Put content and more players will get involved.

That's an assumption with no guarantees.

Frontier know for a fact that they have sold every copy of a game that gives players options as to who they play with (and the current advertising still states this).

What Frontier does not know is what proportion of the player-base would become alienated if existing content was put behind a PvP gate - especially as the advertising states that players in Solo can affect the economy, politics and conflicts of the shared galaxy.
 
Ugh its not a choice thing maynard. Its an efficiency thing. Besides you give any PVPer a powerup in any PVP game that gives them the chance to take objectives without fighting their opponents they are going to take it.

Its small because there is no NEED for it. We are asking for there to be a NEED for it. In a game where players are intentionally effecting each other anyways.

Let us blow each other up.

If you arent involved in it. Then nothing changes. You'll still have the option like everyone else. But lets not snub the good people asking for this. Just because its something you may not want changed.

power ups, PvP, objectives.....

That's Arena / CQC - go have fun.

We can turn it around though. Players dont get invlvoved in PvP because PvP is a separate activity from PVE and the modes are the biggest contributer to this apart from the lacking content.

There is a thread in the PvP section about why PvP is not popular in ED, many answers revolve around it having no content.

Put content and more players will get involved.

There is a difference between adding PvP content and you lot screaming to lock content away from others.
People PvP in PGs, yet you keep demanding content for Open Only.

You can add content without stopping others having access to it.
 

ALGOMATIC

Banned
power ups, PvP, objectives.....

That's Arena / CQC - go have fun.



There is a difference between adding PvP content and you lot screaming to lock content away from others.
People PvP in PGs, yet you keep demanding content for Open Only.

You can add content without stopping others having access to it.

CQC has no objectives, it has some arcade point system which kills any sort of immersion.

Objectives would be fighting over a station or a terretory control, even if its minimalistic lile putting yoir PF name on a station, its still incomparable to some arcade 4 × 4 space shooter.

Sure, adding content for OPEN only is a good option, probably PP is a good candidate but if many play it in SOLO wouldn't be fair taking it from them, although it doesnt seems too popular. I guess they would need to add another layer, dont see any issue.
 
People need to quit calling for the death of solo and player group. If Frontier did it they open themselves up to huge legal issues and catastrophic financial loss. It can't happen if Frontier wants to continue to exist, therefore it won't. Frontier lawyers are smarter than the lot looking for this option. No, I will not go into details, but the point still exists. If you want the death of solo and player groups, ask for a new game because it won't happen in this one.
 
If I may...

On another thread a suggestion was made to create Elite:Crucible, which I think would be an excellent and elegant solution to the problem. In short, it would be:

A mini-bubble of a couple hundred systems.
All systems controlled by Powers/Player Factions
Open Only
Relaxed C&P Rules
Separate PowerPlay/BGS/Economy State
Relaxed Engineering and Mat Gathering
Fully functional area, actions will only impact this mini-bubble
PvP Sanctioned area

BUT

Any ships/credits/mods earned or taken into the Crucible do so on a one-way trip...once you take them in they are no longer available to your CMDR in ED.

And since it is a mini-instance, all of the coding work stays the same.
It would give PvPers the meaningful area that they want, yet allow those that prefer a different playstyle to live in peace...

Your thoughts?
 
If I may...

On another thread a suggestion was made to create Elite:Crucible, which I think would be an excellent and elegant solution to the problem. In short, it would be:

A mini-bubble of a couple hundred systems.
All systems controlled by Powers/Player Factions
Open Only
Relaxed C&P Rules
Separate PowerPlay/BGS/Economy State
Relaxed Engineering and Mat Gathering
Fully functional area, actions will only impact this mini-bubble
PvP Sanctioned area

BUT

Any ships/credits/mods earned or taken into the Crucible do so on a one-way trip...once you take them in they are no longer available to your CMDR in ED.

And since it is a mini-instance, all of the coding work stays the same.
It would give PvPers the meaningful area that they want, yet allow those that prefer a different playstyle to live in peace...

Your thoughts?

I wouldn't allow transfer from main Elite for this.
Too many people got their stuff via game bugs/ exploits/ cheats and would have a massive and unfair advantage over anyone who starts fresh.
So if this were to happen, people should have to start from fresh when joining.

The other issue it has is Frontier does not want to run 2 BGS and 2 story lines, which is why consoles are on the same BGS as PC and Mac.
So if this were to happen, either Elite: Dangerous or the PvP Elite would be neglected for story / CGs etc.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
It wouldn't need to be run as a separate BGS though - simply permit lock a chunk of the galaxy to that mode.

Within the permit locked area there could be PowerPlay, Factions, CGs, a duplicate workshop for each Engineer, etc. - just no travelling outside of it.

Not sure how it would be different from the rest of the galaxy though - so different C&P, gathering, etc. might fall off the list (unless more significant development effort was to be spent on it).

I proposed "The New Bubble" some time ago - not the first, probably not the last - however, for some, unless the whole player-base can be affected then it's not enough.
 
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It wouldn't need to be run as a separate BGS though - simply permit lock a chunk of the galaxy to that mode.

Within the permit locked area there could be PowerPlay, Factions, CGs, a duplicate workshop for each Engineer, etc. - just no travelling outside of it.

Not sure how it would be different from the rest of the galaxy though - so different C&P, gathering, etc. might fall off the list (unless more significant development effort was to be spent on it).

I proposed "The New Bubble" some time ago - not the first, probably not the last - however, for some, unless the whole player-base can be affected then it's not enough.

I really do like the Idea. But it all needs to be in the same spot Maynard. You send one group to one side of the bubble and send another to another side of the bubble. It will be split the same way it is now.

Listen to what they are telling you guys tho in the last patch notes.

"Power Bounties

Power bounties are supposed to be an incentive for consensual PvP during PowerPlay activities. They are meant to provide credits to players claiming them, whilst not punishing players they are issued against (such as no anonymous access protocols, no detention centre respawning and no increased transfer costs). They’re also meant to last until claimed or you leave the power. Basically, when you get one, it’s just some extra money stuck on your head that opposing power players can claim when they kill you.

Unfortunately, Power Bounties seem to be triggering some of the punishments that normal bounties do, and are not always being removed when you leave a Power. As an interim fix, we are allowing Interstellar Factors to clear Power Bounties, while we investigate the issues."

You guys have no reason to move anywhere. And what hes talking about above is not able to be done in solo and private. Its MEANT for Player Vs Player. They could take that same program and lock it to open like you're talking about in the same spot. No need to move a player group somewhere because you dont want them around. Everyone should be in the same spot so they can jump in and out turning the gears of war.

I think limiting the stuff to one mode like maynard says is a great idea. But we shouldn't be pushing everyone apart at the same time.

People already have the Solo and Private modes to get away from this. They just shouldnt be effective within them. Removing the need for PVP as listed above in the powerplay program.

Proving you all wrong again is called winning. Ya'll tired of me winning yet?
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Indeed - "Power bounties are supposed to be an incentive for consensual PvP during PowerPlay activities" - which is possible in two of the three game modes. For those not seeking direct PvP in relation to PowerPlay there are still two modes available, one of which requires careful attention to the membership.

So, very much able to be done in Private Groups - as it is also a multi-player game mode.

I've not suggested limiting anything, other than access to a specified region of the galaxy (complete with all game features), to Open.

Direct PvP remains optional in this game, even in PowerPlay. Players that prefer direct PvP as a play-style have been attempting to hijack game features for Open only for years - without success.

The New Bubble proposal is a compromise - it locks out a section of the galaxy (actually three, one for each platform) for players that prefer direct PvP (as the permit would only be available while in Open). It won't be enough for those who demand that they should be given sole access to existing content in Open only - however the way the game is sold makes it rather difficult for Frontier to remove that content from Solo and Private Groups.
 
Indeed - "Power bounties are supposed to be an incentive for consensual PvP during PowerPlay activities" - which is possible in two of the three game modes. For those not seeking direct PvP in relation to PowerPlay there are still two modes available, one of which requires careful attention to the membership.

So, very much able to be done in Private Groups - as it is also a multi-player game mode.

I've not suggested limiting anything, other than access to a specified region of the galaxy (complete with all game features), to Open.

Direct PvP remains optional in this game, even in PowerPlay. Players that prefer direct PvP as a play-style have been attempting to hijack game features for Open only for years - without success.

The New Bubble proposal is a compromise - it locks out a section of the galaxy (actually three, one for each platform) for players that prefer direct PvP (as the permit would only be available while in Open). It won't be enough for those who demand that they should be given sole access to existing content in Open only - however the way the game is sold makes it rather difficult for Frontier to remove that content from Solo and Private Groups.

You cant claim that stuff if they are just sticking around in solo and private maynard.

Its MADE TO BE PLAYER VS PLAYER. And if you have people undermining against NPC's instead of the players. NONE OF IT WORKS. And its what we have now.

But you being here for so long arguing against it doesnt make sense. Or does it? Im on to you maynard.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
While it offers possibilities for direct PvP, it was, rather obviously (given that PowerPlay exists in all three game modes) implemented for all players, not just those that prefer direct PvP.

The implementation of PowerPlay is consistent with Frontier's choice not to force any player that does not want to to play in a game mode where they may be engaged in unwanted direct PvP - the foundation of which are the three game modes and single shared galaxy state.
 
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While it offers possibilities for direct PvP, it was, rather obviously (given that PowerPlay exists in all three game modes) implemented for all players, not just those that prefer direct PvP.

Nobodys gonna take the chance of getting stopped by another player if they dont have to. Thats all this comes down to. Thats why everything in this game is a grief. Because of the no context.

We both know it. Lets stop with the games now.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I know that this is not a game dedicated to PvP - that's why I backed it. It's been obvious for over five years that this game does not require any player to engage in direct PvP to be able to engage in game features (except, of course, CQC which is pure direct PvP).
 
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I know that this is not a game dedicated to PvP - that's why I backed it. It's been obvious for over five years that this game does not require any player to engage in direct PvP to be able to engage in game features (except, of course, CQC which is pure direct PvP).

You're right the game not* is all centered around PVP. And even if by some stoke of luck we all got what we wanted. Nothing would change. Powerplay was meant to be the outlet for the PVP part of the game. Where people had an understanding of shooting each other. And they knew what they were getting into when they did it.

Instead, they undermine in solo and private. Not because of the choice. But because they know they would be opposed. Like that guys griefing and ganking video I posted.

So now, not only do the modes kill the PVP aspect part of the game. But now BOTS are in them as well. Working against actual players. However, that really wouldnt be an issue if we could simple kill them, report them and move on.

Who knows whats else is lurking in private and solo. I gotta tell ya maynard, keeping the game as it is now with the toxicity, PVE vs PVP, instead of PVP vs PVP with objectives. Forum PVP. People invading private group servers and killing everyone in sight, all sorts of things.

All because there is no definition, And there is no definition because of the modes.

Damn near every thread ends up with a open private solo conversation. I know you see them.

So keeping it this way? You are choosing to keep the game toxic. Thats not the players fault. Its how its built.

And it just cant stay this way. I love the game, but even the nicest person becomes super toxic when they get killed in the game. "I got killed for no reason +30 min rant cause they got killed while they were on the ground AFK". We are trying to define that reason. Because it does exist. And when you take away those reasons with private and solo.

The community tearing each other apart is what you get.

It happened early on with WoW, and we see the horde vs alliance. And we see LoL vs Dota, and we see Elite Vs Star Citizen.

There will always be competition, it just exists. But when you remove certain aspects of competition and only leave the PVE side. In whats supposed to be a PVP scenario. It gets used for module hopping(which they should be disabled if you are in power with them? it would push tier 5 rewards, and more people would stay involved with a single faction). But people lose interest in a PVP part of the game where you just end up PVEing the whole time because either,

a) The losing side goes into solo and private using the relaxed build with more cargo space and what not.

b) They were never out in open to begin with. But you know they are there because numbers are turning.

Ive experienced it all. Its whats happened within the community. Its not fair to PVEers because there is no context. Its not fair to the PVPers looking for that outlet. And when they finally get that "organic" PVP. They are called every name in the book. Usually its the PVPers in the games that are toxic. This game its the other way around. And by that alone. It needs some definition.

You have to force people to PVP if you want to define PVP. Otherwise, we get the toxicity we have now.

And remove CQC from your vocabulary. People not playing it doesnt mean they dont want to PVP either. People dont play it because the servers SUCK, the matchmaking sucks, the Ladder system sucks. You are rewarded by time. The payouts for winning sucks. And its connected to the main part of the game, instead of using that currency for personal progression within the mode.

CQC was removed from steam, not because we didnt want to use it. It was removed from steam because it was built crappy.

Thats why no one plays it.
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Many threads end up in a modes "debate" simply because some of those that prefer direct PvP cannot force others to engage in it. Frontier forestalled the haemorrhaging of players that don't enjoy PvP by offering them options. Some players that prefer direct PvP don't like that. Hence the cycle goes on.

Is there really an expectation that perceived toxicity would actually *reduce* if content was taken from Solo and Private Groups to be locked behind an Open only requirement? When one Frontier Dev is on record as stating that Frontier are well aware that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP? When the game is advertised, clearly stating that players in Solo affect the economy, politics and conflicts of the shared galaxy?

If forcing PvP on players is required for PvP to gain definition then I'm very, very glad that Frontier chose to design their game as they did.

Regarding WoW, it would seem that changes have been made to their PvP arrangements - if these articles are anything to go by:

https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/3/16604460/world-of-warcraft-pvp-player-versus-player-servers

http://massivelyop.com/2017/11/14/t...do-you-stand-on-wows-proposed-new-pvp-system/
 
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Many threads end up in a modes "debate" simply because some of those that prefer direct PvP cannot force others to engage in it. Frontier forestalled the haemorrhaging of players that don't enjoy PvP by offering them options. Some players that prefer direct PvP don't like that. Hence the cycle goes on.

Is there really an expectation that perceived toxicity would actually *reduce* if content was taken from Solo and Private Groups to be locked behind an Open only requirement? When one Frontier Dev is on record as stating that Frontier are well aware that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP? When the game is advertised, clearly stating that players in Solo affect the economy, politics and conflicts of the shaerd galaxy?

If forcing PvP on players is required for PvP to gain definition then I'm very, very glad that Frontier chose to design their game as they did.

Wow, im just going to stop now. Cause this is a really bad outlook. I know you mean well, but im not sure you realize what exactly is happening out there. You should be able to put 2 and 2 together as a mod seeing all the posts about it.

If you take a step back and look at both sides of the people coming here. There is obviously a toxicity issue maynard.

And its all around this subject.

And then you say you're happy because of the way it is...

That is pretty bad. And unfair to a lot of people. Not just PVPers.

But even to the people that are looking for this game to grow and not platue out because skimmer missions were on sale.

Cmon man, look at everything thats happening because of it.

Edit: The WOW thing is really good. If you read it, its kind of like leaving a station with powerplay material. Or Powerplay in general would be Elites Flagging system. Its ALMOST AS IF POWERPLAY WAS DESIGNED THIS WAY.

Oh gee there I go being right again.
 
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....

"Power Bounties

Power bounties are supposed to be an incentive for consensual PvP during PowerPlay activities. They are meant to provide credits to players claiming them, whilst not punishing players they are issued against (such as no anonymous access protocols, no detention centre respawning and no increased transfer costs). They’re also meant to last until claimed or you leave the power. Basically, when you get one, it’s just some extra money stuck on your head that opposing power players can claim when they kill you.

Unfortunately, Power Bounties seem to be triggering some of the punishments that normal bounties do, and are not always being removed when you leave a Power. As an interim fix, we are allowing Interstellar Factors to clear Power Bounties, while we investigate the issues."

You guys have no reason to move anywhere. And what hes talking about above is not able to be done in solo and private. Its MEANT for Player Vs Player. ......

Where does it say this is locked to open?

Because from what I've read, you can gain and claim these in private groups.
 
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