Same old song about cheaters

[Zambrick]

This forum is about the game ED not the real world. I was trying to semi politely say his analogy made no sense. yours is even worse. What issue are you referring to? This thread is about combat logging, not about murder, police, or TVs.

What I am referring to is the fact that all games are based on humans and human experiences. We have no other frame of reference of which to create a game. (aka something alien.)

So in turn the person whom you quoted made the comment that if you buy, look, or read about a TV that its assumed that the TV will be used as a TV.

The manufacturers of the TV will not say that since we made a TV we will allow it to be used as a TV. In opposition of a manufacturer going we made a TV but everyone uses them to commit homicide. The manufacturer cant directly do anything about it, but the authorities can.

You were trying to be clever and mix the message. Or you really didnt get it at all in the first place.

What he was making reference to was the fact that FDEV made a game called Elite Dangerous its a Science Fiction game based in space with space ships.

FDEV did not create a game called Elite Dangerous Science Fiction murder simulator in space with space ships.

Combat logging has become a huge issue because griefers have become a big issue.

The post, if you are not familiar, is about the griefers shaming combat loggers by calling them cheaters. What I am saying is that they have no room to talk and their entire "focus" of gameplay is a cheat unto itself. They have no consequences for murder so why should combat loggers care about being called cheaters?

The griefers caused this because they murder in game and the effect is combat logging. They took a science fiction space game and decided to make it Call of Duty pwn the noobs in space. (Which they are creating as we speak.)

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Horse died, still beating it.

Is Combat Logging a Real Problem?
Only for those trying to kill other players.

Since this only affects a percentage, likely a small percentage, of players, it's reasonable to think this is a very low priority item over fixing actual bugs and implementing new features. I'd wager if an actual list of items exists, this is the last item on it, just above Implement Player Ship Naming.

Is there a real, viable, fair and balanced solution:
No.

Accidental disconnects will happen. Server errors happen - as a matter of fact, they have been happening more this past week than ever. Intentional disconnects are also going to continue to happen, and it's not because of an issue with the game. It's an issue with the player. It's not Frontier's responsibility to change how people think and react as much as those complaining would like. Now it has been addressed that it is possible to log and flag and... but guess what... any half-clever person who would combat log can very easily induce a Windows Error, complete with corroborating event log that will look to anyone able to read this kind of data as an actual windows error - thus they must not have logged, there was a crash. There are just too many ways to refute a claim to ever implement a fair and balanced means of addressing this.

That leaves only one option, one I have given time and time again, and will continue to give until no one speaks of this any longer:

Suck it up and get over it.

But the Player-Killer crowd hates this answer. They want something. Should you just be automatically credited with the logger's Insurance cost to your credit balance? Should the logger just be banned? Should thugs show up at their door to beat them within an inch of their lives? Should their save data simply be deleted? Do you want a biscuit? Do you even know?

To be honest, all the noise the player-killer crowd makes reminds me of Kim Jong Un - you keep firing your missiles into the ocean and impressing no one.

 

[Roland2]

What I am referring to is the fact that all games are based on humans and human experiences. We have no other frame of reference of which to create a game. (aka something alien.)

So in turn the person whom you quoted made the comment that if you buy, look, or read about a TV that its assumed that the TV will be used as a TV.

The manufacturers of the TV will not say that since we made a TV we will allow it to be used as a TV. In opposition of a manufacturer going we made a TV but everyone uses them to commit homicide. The manufacturer cant directly do anything about it, but the authorities can.

You were trying to be clever and mix the message. Or you really didnt get it at all in the first place.

What he was making reference to was the fact that FDEV made a game called Elite Dangerous its a Science Fiction game based in space with space ships.

FDEV did not create a game called Elite Dangerous Science Fiction murder simulator in space with space ships.

Combat logging has become a huge issue because griefers have become a big issue.

The post, if you are not familiar, is about the griefers shaming combat loggers by calling them cheaters. What I am saying is that they have no room to talk and their entire "focus" of gameplay is a cheat unto itself. They have no consequences for murder so why should combat loggers care about being called cheaters?

The griefers caused this because they murder in game and the effect is combat logging. They took a science fiction space game and decided to make it Call of Duty pwn the noobs in space. (Which they are creating as we speak.)

I'm going to stop addressing the TV thing, because I still don't see how it equates to combat logging and it's effect on PvP bounty hunting and pirating, which is what the original analogy was addressing.

As for combat logging becoming a big issue, that is an opinion, and one I don't share. Combat logging is an issue for those who feel it is important. They try to make it a big issue by saying it is cheating, using FDs statement that it is an exploit and Mr. Braben's statement as supporting evidence. My argument was that most of the points made in this forum would be mute if FD changed there stance and said CL was not an exploit, and not cheating. Then maybe we could get to the real issues involving CL and why some consider it bad for ED.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

I'm going to stop addressing the TV thing, because I still don't see how it equates to combat logging and it's effect on PvP bounty hunting and pirating, which is what the original analogy was addressing.

As for combat logging becoming a big issue, that is an opinion, and one I don't share. Combat logging is an issue for those who feel it is important. They try to make it a big issue by saying it is cheating, using FDs statement that it is an exploit and Mr. Braben's statement as supporting evidence. My argument was that most of the points made in this forum would be mute if FD changed there stance and said CL was not an exploit, and not cheating. Then maybe we could get to the real issues involving CL and why some consider it bad for ED.

The point trying to be made is:

The manufacturer says "You can watch TV on this TV", much like Frontier says "You can kill other players in this game".

What the manufacturer of said TV did not say was "We guarantee you will always have perfect reception, a flawless picture and sound, and will find exactly what you want to watch, free of commercial interruption every single time you turn this television on, or we will sue the broadcasting companies on your behalf and deliver a large sum of cash to you at home, and give you a reacharound for your troubles." which is what the Player-Killing community seems to want.

It's considered bad because someone didn't get their way.

But the player-killer community here is very much like the transgender community in certain parts of the United States - they want to pee where they want to pee, don't care if it bothers or offends someone else, and hold protests and demonstrations to rub everyone's noses in their issues because everyone is just supposed to suddenly and magically care and champion a cause that does not interest or impact them in any way.

Squeaky wheel and all that.

 

[veelckoo]

The point trying to be made is:

The manufacturer says "You can watch TV on this TV", much like Frontier says "You can kill other players in this game".

What the manufacturer of said TV did not say was "We guarantee you will always have perfect reception, a flawless picture and sound, and will find exactly what you want to watch, free of commercial interruption every single time you turn this television on, or we will sue the broadcasting companies on your behalf and deliver a large sum of cash to you at home, and give you a reacharound for your troubles." which is what the Player-Killing community seems to want.

It's considered bad because someone didn't get their way.

But the player-killer community here is very much like the transgender community in certain parts of the United States - they want to pee where they want to pee, don't care if it bothers or offends someone else, and hold protests and demonstrations to rub everyone's noses in their issues because everyone is just supposed to suddenly and magically care and champion a cause that does not interest or impact them in any way.

Squeaky wheel and all that.

At least player-killers don't moan that loggers hurt their feelings

 

[Roland2]

The point trying to be made is:

The manufacturer says "You can watch TV on this TV", much like Frontier says "You can kill other players in this game".

What the manufacturer of said TV did not say was "We guarantee you will always have perfect reception, a flawless picture and sound, and will find exactly what you want to watch, free of commercial interruption every single time you turn this television on, or we will sue the broadcasting companies on your behalf and deliver a large sum of cash to you at home, and give you a reacharound for your troubles." which is what the Player-Killing community seems to want.

It's considered bad because someone didn't get their way.

But the player-killer community here is very much like the transgender community in certain parts of the United States - they want to pee where they want to pee, don't care if it bothers or offends someone else, and hold protests and demonstrations to rub everyone's noses in their issues because everyone is just supposed to suddenly and magically care and champion a cause that does not interest or impact them in any way.

Squeaky wheel and all that.

So, if yo look at post 426, which the TV analogy quoted, you'll see my point is similar to yours. Then you started defending Comrade Error's TV analagy, to then turn around and restate my point using the TV analogy, which I still thing never should have been used.

 

[Querty Out]

Fairness.. I don't even know where to begin... I suspect this is a European concept to begin with - that everything should be fair. Hence we have little league sports with no scores, and trophies for everyone - just to be fair.
We give jobs to people who are totally not qualified for them - to be fair.
We give vouchers for food, and rent, and public transportation and cellular phones to drug addicts and prostitutes who have no legitimate jobs - to be fair.

But the harsh truth is that life is not fair. Dinosaurs are extinct because life isn't fair. Neandertal is extinct because life isn't fair.
Because life isn't fair.
I won't say things would not be different, potentially better, if life were fair, but it's pure fantasy to think that it ever will be.

And that brings me to this: "you should accept that you may become a piracy and murder victim [...] when you don't want to fly your A-grade PVP ship." which serves to flawlessly illustrate exactly why many Americans, myself included, are such staunch supporters of our Right to Bare Arms. This is precisely why so many of us DO own and carry guns - to help even the odds between law-abiding citizens and the criminal element that disregards the law. We're just trying to make things a little more fair.

And really the only "fair" solution here is to prevent any sort of log-off. All ships should be turned over to AI's whenever the account owner is not online, be it accidentally or by choice. That's the only thing that would be fair, and it has to apply to griefers, pirates, explorers - everyone. Once you log in that very first time, that's it - you're here for eternity. You'll find yourself landed where ever you landed last. And if you were flying through space, well, you'll just be that much farther when you come back, unless, of course, you happen to have been blown up while you were away, then you'll log back in to an insurance claim screen.

I wasn't really thinking too much outside the game when I used the word "fair". We play a game together. Some people like to pirate or murder players in Open, that's fine, nothing wrong with that, even when they have an unfair advantage while doing so in their A-grade PVP build against some weak trading or explorer build. If you want fair PVP then arrange a tournament. But when the same pirates and murderers move to Solo while in a lesser ship to avoid becoming a victim themselves... Well, that's not "fair game" or hypocritical. Maybe there is a better word for it. Sure, it will happen and people will do it, I just suggest not to.

 

[Zambrick]

At least player-killers don't moan that loggers hurt their feelings

Then what do you call coming out here all Butthurt and creating another needless post about a known issue?

 

[Karunamon]

It's an issue with the player.

Nail, meet head.

In most other competitive games I'm used to (and let's just sidestep the tiresome incoming discussion about how two ships shooting at each other isn't competition), disconnecting without a decently fast reconnect is counted against the player that disconnected, 100% of the time.

League of legends comes to mind. If you disconnect mid game, you've just ruined the day of 9 other people. Mid-game disconnections are therefore punished after a pattern of behavior is established. One or two disconnects due to internet problems won't get you in trouble - disconnecting every time you start losing will.

The overarching philosophy is an understanding that a player does not have the right to foist the consequences of their crappy infrastructure on other players.

If your internet sucks, fix it, get new internet, or get a new game, rather than expecting the rest of the (virtual) universe to put up with you not playing by the stated rules.

 

[Querty Out]

Heh ... there may always a bit of chest-thumping where us PvP-types are concerned.

However, I think that for many the decision to play in Open only is a personal RP choice - essentially choosing which dimension you envisage your character existing in, then staying there.

Personally, I did my trading in a Type-7 in Open, a looonngggg way from the hotspots. What this achieved was not people thinking that I was tough (I had precisely nobody on my friends list at the time...) but a reduced credit income in return for 'mah immersion' - a greater feeling of realism, the sense that I was avoiding danger by taking active steps to achieve that, rather than abolishing that danger.

Later I got braver and traded in a Python in Open, even at CG's - even escaping the legendary pirate Bangfish on one memorable occasion.

This was to become a theme for me even after I joined a player group. For example, when the original Robigo smuggling broke, by then I was in Adle's Armada. We all went to Takurua so as to avoid Robigo fighting and did all our smuggling from there in Open - again accepting slightly diminished returns (though, here, the incentive being of course mixed between personal RP satisfaction and 'group image').

A related example would be over players' personal decisions as to whether they do or don't trade virtual slaves. Pure RP.

However ... every man has his breaking point. I am not at all a fan of 2.1 and done every second of my months of RNGineering in Solo. I estimate that the lower-risk adjustments I'm thus able to make to ship choice, outfitting choice and flying style (in SC and before docking) probably save me 5 mins to 10 mins every hour.

And where RNGineering is concerned, 5-10 mins/hr means more to me than all the RP or image in the galaxy and then some...

I trust you go don't go back to Open in your engineered ship to murder players at engineering bases...?

Nothing wrong with murder at engineering bases (bar some improvements to the crime and punishment system) but if one murders in Open then one should engineer in Open.

 

[Zambrick]

Nail, meet head.

In most other competitive games I'm used to (and let's just sidestep the tiresome incoming discussion about how two ships shooting at each other isn't competition), disconnecting without a decently fast reconnect is counted against the player that disconnected, 100% of the time.

League of legends comes to mind. If you disconnect mid game, you've just ruined the day of 9 other people. Mid-game disconnections are therefore punished after a pattern of behavior is established. One or two disconnects due to internet problems won't get you in trouble - disconnecting every time you start losing will.

The overarching philosophy is an understanding that a player does not have the right to foist the consequences of their crappy infrastructure on other players.

If your internet sucks, fix it, get new internet, or get a new game, rather than expecting the rest of the (virtual) universe to put up with you not playing by the stated rules.

If the game was balanced and centered around PVP in any way, I would agree with you. If this game was anywhere near complete, I would agree with you. However this game is not league of legends or any other twitch based FPS e-sport game. Until they finish and fix this game, combat logging is a non issue and they should get over it.

Its like grabbing a sibling and taking them outside at gunpoint and telling them you have to play a game of marbles with me. Since the sibling knows its a water pistol they just go right back in the house and goes on about their day. That is all this debate is boiling down to.

 

[Roland2]

Nail, meet head.

In most other competitive games I'm used to (and let's just sidestep the tiresome incoming discussion about how two ships shooting at each other isn't competition), disconnecting without a decently fast reconnect is counted against the player that disconnected, 100% of the time.

League of legends comes to mind. If you disconnect mid game, you've just ruined the day of 9 other people. Mid-game disconnections are therefore punished after a pattern of behavior is established. One or two disconnects due to internet problems won't get you in trouble - disconnecting every time you start losing will.

The overarching philosophy is an understanding that a player does not have the right to foist the consequences of their crappy infrastructure on other players.

If your internet sucks, fix it, get new internet, or get a new game, rather than expecting the rest of the (virtual) universe to put up with you not playing by the stated rules.

I'm not a PvPer, nor do I like online games (in general). So, please explain how one player disconnecting messes up 9 other players. The online games I do play, the netcode has contingencies so that one person leaving doesn't adversely affect the other player in the group, except for the lose of ability/DPS that player offered. And the only penalty, was a 1 hour cooldown before they could participate in the group event(s) again. In another game there was no penalty for disconnects.

 

[JerryLove]

Nail, meet head.

In most other competitive games I'm used to (and let's just sidestep the tiresome incoming discussion about how two ships shooting at each other isn't competition), disconnecting without a decently fast reconnect is counted against the player that disconnected, 100% of the time.

That's a sub-genre of team-based competitive games.

Most games, even most multiplayer games outisde of that genere have no "punishment", except perhaps in some very specific situations.

For example: log out in the middle of a PvE event you've joined in StarTrek Online and you will be blocked from the PvE queue for 30 min. Log out at any other point and there's no punishment at all. Not because there can't be, but because there'd be no purpose to it.

And even in such cases: what's the punishment for doing it while playing single-player?

League of legends comes to mind. If you disconnect mid game, you've just ruined the day of 9 other people. Mid-game disconnections are therefore punished after a pattern of behavior is established. One or two disconnects due to internet problems won't get you in trouble - disconnecting every time you start losing will.

That would be a MOBA (specific sub-genre). ED is not a MOBA. It's closer to games like Diablo or X3.

No one's day is ruined by a combat log. At absolute worst, they are denied a bounty they hoped to get; and even that requires a large number of specific circumstances to be in place.

If your internet sucks, fix it, get new internet, or get a new game, rather than expecting the rest of the (virtual) universe to put up with you not playing by the stated rules.

Yea. that's a good option. Go personally fix the internet.

But you raise a good point. "get a new game". For example: if you can't stay connected in a MOBA, go get a game like Elite Dangerous!

 

[Asp Explorer]

I'm sure you have inspired someone, somewhere to find an acoustic coupler and fill lulzbuckets

 

[Karunamon]

Until they finish and fix this game, combat logging is a non issue and they should get over it.

Agreed, in principle, but FD has this hilarious habit of making crappy bandaids that stay around too long rather than actually fixing actually broken things in a timely manner (which by this point is years).

At this point, I'd be happy seeing a fix for CLing just because it would end this stupid debate over whether things the developers have said are exploits are exploits. IMO, exploits are always bad regardless of the reasons for them existing.

 

[Troopi]

The problem with FD "fixing" combat-logging is they have no way to differentiate between that and a genuine network issue.

This is the whole truth about it. In a game where loosing a ship means loosing money, a crash or network drop could cause unfair destruction of a ship. FDev would have to reimburse each reported case. It's much easier for them to leave it as it is. And it's much fairer to players that have faulty connections /computers, because they never know when the damn thing will fail.

 

[Boomer Kay]

I can understand why people would combat log to avoid paying 20-30m rebuy. As money making is nerfed harder and harder, the amount of people avoiding the rebuy will only increase.

Is the problem combat logging, or the grindy nature of the game turning people off from playing it? Whenever my Conda blows up, it does not inspire me to get right back into the saddle and slowly grind my money back, it just makes me wonder why I still play Elite.

It's frikken monopoly money.
I wasn't happy to lose my corvette to in open (to an npc) and I made my first 600 million at an average rate of 1 mio per hour, so that was quite some "lost progress" (to an open end goal, so it doesn't matter in the end, where we will all uninstall the game).
But if the prospect of losing monopoly money in a game of monopoly ever discourages me, i'll just stop playing games and watch tv, since I will have lost all perspective of what playing games is about.

 

[Karunamon]

For example: log out in the middle of a PvE event

Open is PvP, not PvE. When there is another human involved, and rules you are expected to follow.

No one's day is ruined by a combat log.

Speak for yourself. This is why there are rules, and if caught you will be punished. It's not for you to decide who's day it ruins.

Yea. that's a good option. Go personally fix the internet.

Your crappy internet is not my problem.

But you raise a good point. "get a new game". For example: if you can't stay connected in a MOBA, go get a game like Elite Dangerous!

Until someone annoyed enough to screen record all of their play catches you doing this, opens a support ticket with video evidence, and you get the ban you deserve.

I'm not a PvPer, nor do I like online games (in general). So, please explain how one player disconnecting messes up 9 other players. The online games I do play, the netcode has contingencies so that one person leaving doesn't adversely affect the other player in the group, except for the lose of ability/DPS that player offered. And the only penalty, was a 1 hour cooldown before they could participate in the group event(s) again. In another game there was no penalty for disconnects.

In a MOBA? Your team is down a person, which statistically torpedoes your winrate. The other team gets an easy win they didn't have to work for, which feels remarkably hollow.

You'll notice I was speaking specifically of league of legends. Players have been banned for repeated disconnects. Given that the developers here acknowledge it as an exploit, similar measures should be expected.

 

[Zambrick]

I'm not a PvPer, nor do I like online games (in general). So, please explain how one player disconnecting messes up 9 other players. The online games I do play, the netcode has contingencies so that one person leaving doesn't adversely affect the other player in the group, except for the lose of ability/DPS that player offered. And the only penalty, was a 1 hour cooldown before they could participate in the group event(s) again. In another game there was no penalty for disconnects.

That is because it was an instanced group event with limited slots to fill.

It would be like WoW not allowing you to log in because you were having network trouble during the raid. Well because you DCed during the raid you are not allowed to log in for an hour. No game has ever and will ever do that if they want to remain in business.


The only point is there is no need to continue to try and justify how a selfish gankers POV outweighs the POV of some scientist just trying to experiment. Neither side is more or less important to the game universe than the other. With maybe the slight acceptation to the scientist, because without their contribution to the game story all the new toys and experiences wouldn't happen without said experimentation and mystery solving.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Au contraire - someone else's crappy internet is very much your problem