Scrap or redesign shield cell modules, they are too overpowered and trivialize PvP.

You are joking/trolling right?

There is no skill involved in using SCB's, its ridiculous to even try and say that. Its not skillful to use one before your shields go down, its just good timing and paying attention. I seriously think you only want them to be able to kill larger NPC's.

If an NPC anaconda used shield cells like a player, you would have no chance. Its just abusing the lack of NPC ability with a cheap crutch for people to do more than their situation would normally allow them. Its that simple. There is absolutely no skill involved. The skill would come in by flying the ship well enough you don't need SCB's. Then if it turns out you do need them, you either aren't as good as you think, or you picked the wrong fight.

So ... it takes no skill, yet involves good timing and paying attention? What exactly is "skill" then?

Of course I want them to be able to take on NPC's that normally would kill me. Why else would I want them? I'm still learning to fly with/without FA, learning everything. What I don't want is to tackle an NPC that costs me 2m because I am "trying".

It's a health potion, it's a health pack, it's whatever you want to call it. They are in a TON of games and some people need them, some don't.

I'd be happy as hell if they had an offline game that just got improvements and a PVP server where people could complain all day about "balance". This isn't being brought to the attention of the developers because people in Solo are killing NPC Anacondas, it's being complained about because player Vipers can't take out a player Python in 2 minutes.
 
Last edited:

aowqyaaw

Banned
training-wheels.jpg
I double dare you.

Sorry for spamming pictures. I've had too much sugary cereal.
 
Last edited:
So ... it takes no skill, yet involves good timing and paying attention? What exactly is "skill" then?

Of course I want them to be able to take on NPC's that normally would kill me. Why else would I want them? I'm still learning to fly with/without FA, learning everything. What I don't want is to tackle an NPC that costs me 2m because I am "trying".

It's a health potion, it's a health pack, it's whatever you want to call it. They are in a TON of games and some people need them, some don't.

I'd be happy as hell if they had an offline game that just got improvements and a PVP server where people could complain all day about "balance". This isn't being brought to the attention of the developers because people in Solo are killing NPC Anacondas, it's being complained about because Vipers can't take out a Python in 2 minutes.

I would say that ''skill'' is something more than paying attention and having good timing.
Maybe I would define it as an individual's ability to, in a complex system, competently act in the optimal manner, possibly possesing an above average knowledge of deeper mechanics directly or indirectly linked to whatever it is the individual has its ''skill'' measured in.
If that explanation even makes sense.

And you know, it is being brought to the attention of the developers. I guess you didn't read the thread, that's ok, it's getting pretty huge...
3 Vipers can't take out a Python in 2 minutes, and not in 8 minutes, or even bring down its shields in that time span, as we saw in Kremmen's video. Well, not if it has shield cells, at least. Without shield cells, it's a completely different thing, of course. That is kind of the problem.
 
I would say that ''skill'' is something more than paying attention and having good timing.
Maybe I would define it as an individual's ability to, in a complex system, competently act in the optimal manner, possibly possesing an above average knowledge of deeper mechanics directly or indirectly linked to whatever it is the individual has its ''skill'' measured in.
If that explanation even makes sense.

And you know, it is being brought to the attention of the developers. I guess you didn't read the thread, that's ok, it's getting pretty huge...
3 Vipers can't take out a Python in 2 minutes, and not in 8 minutes, or even bring down its shields in that time span, as we saw in Kremmen's video. Well, not if it has shield cells, at least. Without shield cells, it's a completely different thing, of course. That is kind of the problem.

You misunderstood. The person I was replying to was stating in a round-about-way that I suck and needed them as a crutch. They're probably right I have an Asp and got the NPC Anaconda to about 85% hull when I had to use a Shield Cell, and then I got rammed and died. Just like any other game I enjoy playing I'll use systems in play that help me.

The reason I said "this isn't being brought to the attention of the developers" was that "It's not being brought to the attention of the developers mainly because of some players in Solo using them to beat NPC Anacondas" ... I know the developers are looking into it. They replied directly to me in this very thread. I have followed it. What I was saying is that the Solo part of this game isn't the main reason people are angry at it. It's being brought up because of "the one that got away". Or the fact that some Viper couldn't kill a Python in 2 minutes, or 5 in 8 like you say.

And to be honest, I thought that video was awesome. I think 5 uncoordinated pilots SHOULD NOT be able to take out 1 Python. This game isn't about "fair play". Without SC's the Python would have been destroyed, and that is more fair? That the most armored toughest ship can be destroyed by 5 players running around without any communication? I think that's idiotic and I think death in this game comes too fast as it is. And before you say that "Elite has always been tough" ... no it hasn't. From what I understand you could just reload your save.
 
Last edited:
You misunderstood. The person I was replying to was stating in a round-about-way that I suck and needed them as a crutch. They're probably right I have an Asp and got the NPC Anaconda to about 85% hull when I had to use a Shield Cell, and then I got rammed and died. Just like any other game I enjoy playing I'll use systems in play that help me.

The reason I said "this isn't being brought to the attention of the developers" was that "It's not being brought to the attention of the developers mainly because of some players in Solo using them to beat NPC Anacondas" ... I know the developers are looking into it. They replied directly to me in this very thread. I have followed it. What I was saying is that the Solo part of this game isn't the main reason people are angry at it.

And to be honest, I thought that video was awesome. I think 5 uncoordinated pilots SHOULD NOT be able to take out 1 Anaconda. This game isn't about "fair play". Without SC's the Anaconda would have been destroyed, and that is more fair? That the most armored toughest ship can be destroyed by 5 players running around without any communication? I think that's idiotic and I think death in this game comes too fast.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Oh, but it can be destroyed by a few players running around without any communication. Not fair? There's a lot more problems than just SCB's.
 
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Oh, but it can be destroyed by a few players running around without any communication. Not fair? There's a lot more problems than just SCB's.

I agree, there are a few issues. Let's just say I'm expressing my extreme discontent at the "PVP balance" complain-a-thon that will eventually happen if FD decides that's how they want to fix things. I hate these type of posts as much as the "hardcore" hate the insurance rants.
 

Sandro Sammarco

Lead Designer
Frontier
Hello Commander Johnny Spaceboots!

I still believe there's nothing wrong (and many things right) about limited skill-based potions in a game that has at its core the chance for uneven encounters. As long as they do not become ultra-path of least resistance, they will not remove or replace skill. So sorry, they're not going yet :)

On the other hand, I would definitely like to see more zing/depth/entertainment to the various roles, including bounty hunting - it's in the list.
 
Hello Commander Johnny Spaceboots!

I still believe there's nothing wrong (and many things right) about limited skill-based potions in a game that has at its core the chance for uneven encounters. As long as they do not become ultra-path of least resistance, they will not remove or replace skill. So sorry, they're not going yet :)

On the other hand, I would definitely like to see more zing/depth/entertainment to the various roles, including bounty hunting - it's in the list.


Okay Sandro, here is an "hypothetical" question for you: If a player Python uses at least 6 shield cells in less than a minute against an other player in a Clipper (for example, me) and without those would have probably lost the encounter (against a 44% Clipper), are they working as intended ?
 
Okay Sandro, here is an "hypothetical" question for you: If a player Python uses at least 6 shield cells in less than a minute against an other player in a Clipper (for example, me) and without those would have probably lost the encounter (against a 44% Clipper), are they working as intended ?

Yes. You don't have a right to win fight and fights don't have to even have a victor. Learn from the experience and figure out a way to do better next time. Every one of us can always do better.
 
What if shield cells recharge shields from your SYS pool of energy.
If you have a full tank of SYS energy, then sure it's going to work to it's fullest and restore your shield.
If you are empty it's going to do jack all.

That way ok you have lots of shield cells, but you need to divert power to use them, meaning your powering down engines or weapons - a tradeoff.

If you're trying to escape 4 pips to shields and 2 to engines likely wont work even with shield cells against anyone who can shoot anyway - you will take damage.

Having said that I still think we should only be able to equip 1 shield cell though.

I think the shield cells pulling from your SYS pool, would solve the problem. Not sure why that isn't the case as it is. Or at least pulling from one of the pools. It could be WEP, I guess.

Either way, you wouldnt need to reduce the possible shield cell modules, because eventually you would have too many shield cell modules for your SYS pool to handle. As long as it used an appropriate amount of energy to use in the first place.
 
If I had my way a shield cell wouldn't boost your shields but shorten your time from shields down to shields back up. Basically faster shield re-upping.
 
So ... it takes no skill, yet involves good timing and paying attention? What exactly is "skill" then?

Of course I want them to be able to take on NPC's that normally would kill me. Why else would I want them? I'm still learning to fly with/without FA, learning everything. What I don't want is to tackle an NPC that costs me 2m because I am "trying".

It's a health potion, it's a health pack, it's whatever you want to call it. They are in a TON of games and some people need them, some don't.

I'd be happy as hell if they had an offline game that just got improvements and a PVP server where people could complain all day about "balance". This isn't being brought to the attention of the developers because people in Solo are killing NPC Anacondas, it's being complained about because player Vipers can't take out a player Python in 2 minutes.

If you are still learning, then why should you be able to kill the 'toughest' enemy in the game at the moment in the process?

I get your point about pvp 'balancing' but it doesn't change the fact that its an issue in both pve and pvp. As this game has both in open mode then its an issue whichever way you look at it. Its just a ridiculous item and if it was removed, everyone would be still on the same level but without a broken item mocking the game design and making people feel worse about the game in general.

I can't see any negative reason not to remove it other than people in 144k ships wont be able to kill 100+ million ships anymore until they have upgraded a bit further.

Anyway, lets see how the nerf affects them.
 
Last edited:
I never understood why one could equip more then one shield cell per ship, that right there is a problem. Then add in a long cooldown, would seem fine to me then.

Also part of the problem is we need more variety in missions, every assassination mission I've had has been an Anaconda, or a Python, how about some lower paying ones that are Asp's or well fitted Cobra's etc...
 
Last edited:

Tar Stone

Banned
In an uneven encounter, the lesser ship can use shield cells to shorten the gap.

The problem is that both ships will have shield cell stocks making them immediately redundant.

So they've had a timing element added to them to bring a bit of skill into their use.

This will now become the central component of a dogfight, before flying, before heat management, before energy management.

The skill element is likely to be as minimal as interdiction requires.

No disrespect intended Sandro but it's an awful mechanic to have at the forefront of combat, and it's depressing to think I have to stock up on these to hunt player bounties. I have to have more than the other guy before I even start? Can you see the problem here?
 
Hello Commanders!

Another quick update: with the next tweaks of shield cell banks (coming soon(tm)) the spool up delay has also been increased from one second to five (which in fairness is another number that fell between the cracks during the last round of balancing).

Again, this isn't the be all and end all. But we look forward to seeing how the tweaks change folks perception of shield cell banks.

Sandro. It feels to me that even the large ships have been balanced to be "fighters". They are really agile, and the hull and shield strength do not scale with the mass of the ship. It's no wonder you guys have ended up trying to tweak things with the shield potions. The larger ships should just be made to be able to take punishment appropriate for their mass, and the easy internal component kills and mission kills (even worse) need to be fixed.

Shield cells are a band-aid on a deep, bleeding wound.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

While i welcome the upcoming scb nerf with open arms, I still believe they are fundamentally flawed and will stay like that even after the nerf.

This. So much this.
 
Hello Commander Johnny Spaceboots!

I still believe there's nothing wrong (and many things right) about limited skill-based potions in a game that has at its core the chance for uneven encounters. As long as they do not become ultra-path of least resistance, they will not remove or replace skill. So sorry, they're not going yet :)

On the other hand, I would definitely like to see more zing/depth/entertainment to the various roles, including bounty hunting - it's in the list.

Then can we at the very least expect modules which will allow us to counter shield cells, either via disabling them, reducing their effectiveness, making them backfire (overcharge, damaging hull and taking down shields or something...)? Or some way to counter shield cells without a special module, which could lead to the problem of releasing snakes to take care of a rat problem? Also, I fail to see how shield cells help with uneven encounters. Any ship that is geared for combat will have tons of shield potions. The only way that SCBs could close the gap is if you were attacking a non-combat loaded bigger ship, like a trading Anaconda or something. In fact, it makes encounters even more uneven, since a trading cobra with 6 scbs could be interdicted by a python with 50 scbs and would realistically have zero chance of winning, even if for the most part they were able to outmaneuver the python. Bigger ships can fit more shield cell banks. A lot more.

Because right now, they upset the balance that was achieved in the alpha and beta 1. Shields were essentially multiplied, potentially dozens of times, in strength with the introduction of shield cells in (I think?) Beta 2, reducing the significance of hull, and by extension making making all hull based weaponry such as cannons obsolete, as well as reducing the importance of sustained damage weapons, while making high burst anti-shield weapons the only choice if you want the chance to fight against shield cells. To exacerbate this problem even further, weapons have steadily had their damage reduced further and further. I was fine with the alpha and beta 1 TTK, even if it is what some people may consider a bit long. I felt like it was in a sweetspot.

But now, with players who are kitted primarily for combat, TTK has practically been multiplied several times. With the now multiplied TTK, I find battles that were formally exciting and unpredictable have turned tedious. Before, the difference between fighting a skilled pilot and a reckless one was reflected not only in the result, but in the time to get that result. A reckless, clumsy pilot could be dispatched of in a matter of 30 seconds to a minute, while a fight with a skilled pilot could easily take 5-10 minutes. But now, regardless of skill-level, I find that fights have deteriorated to where even a terrible player can easily waste 10-15 minutes of my time, and what was formally a battle of wits and maneuvering has now turned into a battle of attrition.

So with that said, I sincerely hope that players can again have a wide variety of viable outfitting choices, and that with proper use of skill, that a player can effectively counter shield cells. Perhaps by making it so that taking damage while using a shield cell cancels the recharge or does something else significant, so that players have to either put distance between them and their enemies or be good enough at maneuvering to stay out of their arc of fire.

Glad to here that bounty hunting will be getting some work done on them.
 
Last edited:
One concern at the moment which indirectly involves shield cells is people playing solo. I found my pal was playing the other night so I thought it would be a good opportunity for us to team up but he said that as he was doing trade runs that he was playing solo as it was safer. Currently there doesn't seem to be any incentive for traders to play the multiplayer. Is this why I hardly see any other players in game even when I went to SOL? I can understand people with expensive ships not wanting to risk them in the multiplayer if they are destroyed too easily. Perhaps we should make shield cells only available to help with the multiplayer aspect and not allow them to be used in solo? --ducking behind my chair to avoid the hate--
 
The easy way to look at what needs a nerf is if there is one module you NEED to have in order to succeed, and have as many as possible, under any circumstance, odds are it needs a nerf or a change.

You can argue about weapon load outs, armor, ship type etc, but the one constant was always shield cells. You were never better off with ecm, or point defense, or heat sinks, or even chaff if you could add in more shield cells. The nerf really isn't enough, anyone that loses their shields that quick wasn't going to win anything with or without them.
 
I'm sure this was proposed before but, only one shield cell bank per ship ? That would go on par with only one fuel scoop and only one shield generator :p
 
Back
Top Bottom