Sense Of Scale

[A D]

No. Star Citizen DOESNT suffer from this problem. IMO Frontier got this terribly wrong. All the people that play in VR seem to NOT have a problem in VR and i tend to believe them ofc, but also makes me think if elite is optimized only for VR. I have a big-ish 2D monitor and i log in to SC every now and then and this is what i have to say: the difference is just huge. Many people seem to share this opinion.
For instance when you are in your srv next to a conda, you can quickly drive from one end of the conda to the other in one or two seconds (correction 3-4 sec), thats simply wrong. It is also a big problem when i try to take some photos with the external camera where the ship simply looks way wrong size.

If you see the below clip that also has a human as reference, it is pure joy on that aspect. I avoid when i can logging in to SC, just because when i come back to elite, it really breaks my immersion to have this feeling of wrong scale.

Just look at the when the ship is touching down.. oh boy!

It's a hard one. All I can add is when I moved from a 2D monitor to VR the first and most noticeable change was the sense of scale. E.g. even looking down from the ASP cockpit to the surface conveys the impression that I'm sitting 30 feet above the ground. Scale in ED is not perfect for sure, but VR does make a big difference on this front.

 

[Sterling MH]

Exactly. This is why I believe that the only real fix to the perception of scale problem is going to be spacelegs.

Unless you are going to go third person for spacelegs or elitefeet, you won't gain anything other than a sense of how long it takes you to get anywhere. Which since there is no artificial gravity will be just as confusing. The only place I can see elite feet being used is when you're parked in a station. And then it will be novel and then annoyance, just as the space legs in X Rebirth was. A waste of time like the animations you can't skip when you change your outfitting for the 800th time.

 

[Skizomeuh]

Scale seems off because of few human-scale elements on screen to compare with. That's why in VR sense of scale looks better, and to some extends with a simple headtracking system (I own a edTracker): because you're in the game, not looking at it from a fixed point through narrow window, so you can comprehend distances of elements inside the cockpit, and then grasp how things outside are even bigger/farther.

And yes I think spacelegs will help grasp the sense of scale (Yet when in SC I'm on the pilot seat scale become back odd quickly too). Even SRV helped: first time I drove around my ASP then made my way back to a space station where I saw another ASP going through the mailslot then just after an anaconda emerged from it, everything got suddenly massive!

 

[Nagual]

I've found that the scale while in 2D is difficult to truly grasp. It wasn't until playing in VR that the scale became apparent.

 

[Faybs]

Unless you are going to go third person for spacelegs or elitefeet, you won't gain anything other than a sense of how long it takes you to get anywhere. Which since there is no artificial gravity will be just as confusing. The only place I can see elite feet being used is when you're parked in a station. And then it will be novel and then annoyance, just as the space legs in X Rebirth was. A waste of time like the animations you can't skip when you change your outfitting for the 800th time.

That's gameplay, which is a different discussion. What I'm talking about is conveying a sense of scale, which right now Elite struggles with. Spacelegs would solve that problem.

 

[Sterling MH]

I've found that the scale while in 2D is difficult to truly grasp. It wasn't until playing in VR that the scale became apparent.

I would suggest that that arises because you can see a bigger cockpit and with that as a scale you can see everything else at a better scale. Parallax (3d stereoscopic magic) only works well to about 10feet, and so most games and movies using 3d use an unreaslistic model of what stereoscopic vision is either putting your eyes many feet apart or putting you really close to what are then really tiny figures so that you can accentuate the differences properly.

But when you get a sense of scale of the cockpit by moving your head around a foot or so, you are good to size it up to maybe 60feet, and that's pretty much the size of big cockpits in ED. And with knowing the scale of that, everything else is no longer "just a bit bigger than your monitor" in size.

 

[777Driver]

I would suggest that that arises because you can see a bigger cockpit and with that as a scale you can see everything else at a better scale. Parallax (3d stereoscopic magic) only works well to about 10feet, and so most games and movies using 3d use an unreaslistic model of what stereoscopic vision is either putting your eyes many feet apart or putting you really close to what are then really tiny figures so that you can accentuate the differences properly.

But when you get a sense of scale of the cockpit by moving your head around a foot or so, you are good to size it up to maybe 60feet, and that's pretty much the size of big cockpits in ED. And with knowing the scale of that, everything else is no longer "just a bit bigger than your monitor" in size.

Have you tried VR, or sat in a GU97? Heck even just stood in the menu screen next to SRV tires

 

[Skizomeuh]

As for planets: absence of atmosphere doesn't help our brains to grasp that this tiny rock few hundreds of meter away is actually a 10km high mountain 20km away. That's why Thargoid bases look more massive: the fog down there helps our brains better accept the distances

Remember: our brains can be tricked so easily...

 

[Old Duck]

2 - Suns are too small. Yeap, we never really get an accurate idea of how big suns are because (a) we can't get close to them, and (b) we can fly loops around them fairly fast.

I never understood how SC works around a star (or orbiting planets FTM). I can lap even a large star in mere seconds - a star that extends to the orbit of Mars if that star were in Sol. Yet if I actually go to Sol and follow Mars' orbit line, it will take much longer to make the same loop. Right? I never get the sense that I'm orbiting a HUGE star that would swallow the earth vs. our own sun which is quite a bit smaller, and yet is still way bigger than a moon that takes about the same time to orbit in SC.

The other thing that messes with the scale of stars is that the surface shimmers way too quickly. The gasses on the surface of large stars must be themselves moving in SC to "shimmer" that fast, seeing that a few pixels worth of a large star are the size of Jupiter. Whoever coded stars must have looked at SOHO videos and not realize they were seeing time-lapse photography...

 

[B1rdy]

I've always thought that the sense of scale in Elite Dangerous was "off", but having recent played some games in PSVR to then come back to ED, the scale really feels broken. This isn't just because I've gotten used to VR immersion. The best example I can give is Skyrim VR. It's amazing to actually walk around Skyrim, and it does give a more accurate sense of scale, but if I go back to 2D Skyrim, my mind still keeps that sense of scale. Having taken a break from ED, I went back and everything feels tiny, even though I know it's supposed to be huge.

I don't have this problem with any other game. NMS is probably the closest game I have to ED, and things feel to proper scale there. So I'm left wondering if ED is "wrong" in how it's rendering its world on a 2D screen. Sitting in my Anaconda, for example, feels more like a dragster than a massive aircraft-carrier sized spaceship. It really breaks the immersion (say it Yamiks, say it!) to the point where I might go back to flying just small ships to try to recapture the sense of realism.

I've heard people speculate that many of EDs models were originally supposed to be smaller but where then just upscaled to be bigger, and that's why we are sitting in insanely huge cockpits that throw off our sense of scale. I also see hints of this with things like the large landing bays. When transitioning from hangar to surface, those "vents" on the deck must be like three stories high, yet they just look like small vents on the 2D screen, making everything look small as well. Temporal queues (how fast landing pads move, for example) also throws off sense of scale.

I'm curious, being on PS4 and unable to try this for myself, does Star Citizen share this lack of scale, or is ED unique in this regard?

Actually Skyrim (also)has an exaggerated world size (for most people). Most have to dial it down a bit.

 

[Nagual]

I would suggest that that arises because you can see a bigger cockpit and with that as a scale you can see everything else at a better scale. Parallax (3d stereoscopic magic) only works well to about 10feet, and so most games and movies using 3d use an unreaslistic model of what stereoscopic vision is either putting your eyes many feet apart or putting you really close to what are then really tiny figures so that you can accentuate the differences properly.

But when you get a sense of scale of the cockpit by moving your head around a foot or so, you are good to size it up to maybe 60feet, and that's pretty much the size of big cockpits in ED. And with knowing the scale of that, everything else is no longer "just a bit bigger than your monitor" in size.

Absolutely, it's just the way some people interpret the images. Though, even if not moving your head in VR, the sense of depth is what takes your breath away. This is really noticable will in the hanger or similar, looking out of the mail slot at a sun or nearby planet is something else to behold in VR.

Actually Skyrim (also)has an exaggerated world size (for most people). Most have to dial it down a bit.

It also has giant chickens and giant cabbages for some reason...

 

[Sterling MH]

That's gameplay, which is a different discussion. What I'm talking about is conveying a sense of scale, which right now Elite struggles with. Spacelegs would solve that problem.

That, however, is why I think it would be in dock. Simpler and you only need to walk around the ship to see its size, and that size won't be based on imagining how fast you can float, but how fast you know you can walk. The freecam in VR gives you the same effect, but zero of the feet. So, again, unless you can go third person, adding humans with legs isn't going to make anything scale up. And anything you do with feet should not become itself a grind and should not be wanting to be skipped. If you had to get to the escape pod before your ship blows, would THAT be gameplay with legs? Sure. But 99% of people will die so you have to retcon how they got out alive anyway.

SC has the FPS thing for legs to do.

We have.... A way to see scale without a £400-£500 bit of kit that ups the required graphics card a long way and also taxes the CPU too. And nothing more than the same fantasies about CQC being a tournament game with people loving the excitement of testing their mettle against other humans. Fantasies that did not appear to be real.

If ALL you could do was take a walk around the ship in the outfitting screen and through the ship when docked and off the pad (so you don't block the pad in PG/Open I get inside if I will be a while as building a habit, even though I play only solo) then I think it a nice thing to add. Better than wings which I can't use.

Hey, how about elite feet becomes a solo only portion? There's no PvP in it at all. We're not running an FPS here. And if you block a pad to go walkabout, you aren't griefing someone else for your gawking desires.

 

[lenna]

I agree with Graxxor though, the game does feel like everything was designed for a smaller scale, and then someone realized too late that the ships needed to be bigger to be realistic, and they just multiplied all ships' volumes by a constant. I mean, look at the size of the windows on most ships - acres and acres of glass.

There is not that much glass in most ships... it just seems like a lot due to general positioning.

The perspective and ship sizes are pretty much spot-on and having played ED with a 2D Monitor, a 3D Monitor, and VR I do have an appreciation for the differences in perception afforded by these technologies.

While we can not walk with our avatars yet, you can still get up and move around in the real world with VR and the mapping does seem to be near enough 1:1 scale.

Where the ship sizes are concerned, if you want the cramped tin can experience - there are SLFs.

 

[Sterling MH]

Have you tried VR, or sat in a GU97? Heck even just stood in the menu screen next to SRV tires

No and no. And no. Why is that relevant to anything you quoted?

 

[Sterling MH]

Though, even if not moving your head in VR, the sense of depth is what takes your breath away.

From what I've seen in YT vids of VR in ED (can I have a consonant, please) it is more that the cockpit elements (that are a lot closer to you in your seat stuck back and not moving your head around, just turning it) that takes people's breath away. And those are a lot closer than 10 feet... Unless you are playing with your Holo Me as Mr Tickle....

 

[Maro-Val]

Anyone here played subnautica remembers the place where sea emperor was kept? Now THAT felt massive in scale in every aspect, being at the bottom and looking up, being up and looking down all over. It was trully an extraordinary scale shock.

 

[777Driver]

No and no. And no. Why is that relevant to anything you quoted?

Was curious about your statement 'Because you can see a bigger cockpit' partially Agree with you're saying, however there is a lot more to it, you don't have to be on the bridge of a ship in VR to understand the scale. The first thing that hit's you is when you load the menu screen inside the hangar, next to an SRV and Imperial Eagle. Anyway, it's just one of those things that unfortunately can never really be described properly.

Cheers

Anyone here played subnautica remembers the place where sea emperor was kept? Now THAT felt massive in scale in every aspect, being at the bottom and looking up, being up and looking down all over. It was trully an extraordinary scale shock.

Need to pull the trigger on that game, keep putting it off for some reason. Aerofly is frikin amazing, have never been a fan of GA desktop flight sims, accidentally found Aerofly, it simulates most of America with real world high resolution mesh and photo-real textures. Mind Blowing flying over Nevada at 30,000 feet, you feel like you are actually there, including vertigo.

 

[lenna]

I've found that the scale while in 2D is difficult to truly grasp. It wasn't until playing in VR that the scale became apparent.

VR in ED does allow you to truly appreciate the level of detail FD have put into their models and the environment... in some cases it even highlights some modelling deficiencies that are less obvious from the 2D monitor perspective.

It would be almost impossible to replicate the same perception on a single 2D monitor, add an array of 3 or more 2D monitors in an appropriate physical world configuration and you may be able to get some of the same feeling of perception.

 

[777Driver]

From what I've seen in YT vids of VR in ED

No point judging VR on YT videos, absolutely no point at all. All a YT vid demonstrates is head tracking in 3D space. Depth and scale cannot be translated for obvious reasons.

 

[lenna]

From what I've seen in YT vids of VR in ED (can I have a consonant, please) it is more that the cockpit elements (that are a lot closer to you in your seat stuck back and not moving your head around, just turning it) that takes people's breath away. And those are a lot closer than 10 feet... Unless you are playing with your Holo Me as Mr Tickle....

Different people will pick up on different things, for me personally the instrumentation is impressive perhaps but nothing special in the grand scheme of things - the general sense of depth perception can make a huge difference... the most notable case is landing an Asp Explorer as you can look almost straight down and get a vary accurate and natural feel for your alignment with docking/landing pads. The instrumentation in that area is lacking IMO.