[SERIOUS] The Problem With The Mission System

[StarfireIX]

Greetings, Commanders.



First off to introduce myself. I am CMDR StarfireIX, a fan of the Elite franchise and currently studying at University for Games Development & Interactivity, so please forgive my lack of activity on the forums . I've come here to voice my concerns in regards to the recent controversy with the new payouts for wing missions. This thread has been marked as serious on the title, so if you're going to drop by and leave a comment that has no meaning or relation to this thread, then look somewhere else. These will be my honest thoughts and opinions of the issue in discussion, so feel free to voice your honest thoughts as well on the matter.



Let's start off from the beginning...

The Money Problem - Poster by StarfireIX. Assets used from ED Assets


Elite: Dangerous launched as a massive galaxy for players to explore, fight and trade across the stars. CMDRs chose different professions, from Bounty Hunting, Mining, Piracy or fighting other CMDRs. Money hotspots weren't that common at the time, until when popular spots like "Robigo Smuggling" appeared. These destinations used to reward players from 30m per hour to 70m per hour, and this is still seen as a high amount of credits to make. Subsequently, the gold mine was nerfed and smuggling distances were reduced because of high payouts. Since then, More systems to make CR appeared followed by a nerf at the end. From Robigo, Sothis & Ceos, 17 Draconis, Aditi, Quince, Rhea to Upsilon Aquarii.


A few weeks ago, two new popular systems for making money were reported as bugs for various reasons, including one that allowed players to sit in a station for hours while making millions of CR. In response to this, Frontier had shut down the missions in prep for an update they were working on to fix the issue. When the update was made live, several CMDRs complained about unexpected tweaks to wing missions, due to a highly unstable RNG system for cargo requirements and the reward itself. I spoke to Adam Waite, one of the designers for Elite: Dangerous during a discussion of the wing mission issue. Below is a screenshot I referenced which shows a clear issue with the numbers on this mission.

Hi,


Just to comment. I have changed the cargo requested curve very slightly, you may see more at lower ranks but the absolute maximum that can be requested should not have increased significantly. I have also attempted to increase the rewards of delivery wing missions so that there are less negative comparisons to "solo" delivery missions. If people are seeing missions that have extreme reward issues I would love to see some screenshots so that I can try and diagnose where my fixes have missed the mark.


Adam

Wing missions used to be around 3,000 cargo and now they're at around 8,000. Payouts are too random to be using cargo value as a base for it's reward. If RNG is being unstable, then set a minimum or maximum, using cargo value as the laying of the cake. Some examples:


- 1,500t of Imperial Slaves = 19m CR (13k CR value * amount)
- 3,000t of Gold = 23m CR (8k CR value * amount)
- 1,800t of Tobacco = 7m CR (4k CR value * amount)

Looking at the numbers, the ranges are:


Old - Between 375 and 7500 units of cargo
New - Between 320 and 8,100 units of cargo


If anyone has seen cargo above 8,100 I would be really interested to see that as it means my maths is wrong!


As for the rewards, cargo is an element but we take several factors into account including distance, rank, reputation and distance from the star.

So.... What is the Problem?


The Problem is to do with the Random Number Generation (RNG) system designed for both the reward and cargo requirements of a mission. There is no proper minimum or maximum limit for cargo, so you can end up seeing a 3m CR mission for 400t, or 1m CR for 3,000t... worse... 4m CR for 8,000t. Of course, all these numbers depend on factors such as distance, rank and reputation. Even if you do make it to Allied with a high Elite rank, the payouts and requirements are extremely random, causing players to be nauseated over what they want to do.



The Solution

Make ALL mission rewards similar or the same as eachother. If you don't want to see another "100m/h Money Maker, go to System A then B", then I suggest you look into balancing mission rewards properly for all professions of the game. You may not like what I'm about to say, but EvE Online's ways to make money are all the same and it's a 14 year old game. The only thing that may be slightly more profitable in EvE is exploration, but the risk is dangerously high. You can't have a mission worth higher than the other without some sort of risk. Asking an EvE veteran about ways to make money will result in him saying "any profession can make you money". So you can see where I'm getting at. If not, here is an example of how it could work for smuggling and trade:

So the above demonstrates that when hitting certain ranks or reputation with a faction, it sets limits on what RNG can randomize for reward and cargo requirements. I'm not sure if this may be stable to use on servers, but it can be possible for sure. For smuggling, the risk levels and reward increase the further out you go in terms of LY. If your destination in supercruise is really far to get to, then the system only gives you a bonus rather than adding the bonus when you accept the mission in the first place. This should help in response to the insane payouts that were seen for passengers at Rhea or Upsilon Aquarii. (while also better utilizing the bonus mechanic that was introduced around Update 2.1)

In regards to risk levels, the higher it is, the more you are in danger of being pulled or chased by hostile NPCs. They can vary from Pirates, Warlords or even Thargoids! Some parts of missions, including smuggling, need this type of feature to give the player a feeling of meaning and danger when he commits to doing these missions. If we see changes in all professions, especially mining, combat, trade, exploration and passengers; then I assure you that money hotspots will barely be a thing unless bugs occur or tweaks need to be made. We want players to enjoy doing other professions with equal rewards, not do one specific role because it's the most profitable out there!

If you're reading this Thread, Frontier, then I hope you take this as my honest feedback on what needs to be reviewed for the better future of the game. For one, I certainly hope this game continues to improve for the better, especially for other CMDRs. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to let me know. As for the community, what are your thoughts on this? Do you think professions like combat, mining and trade need to be equal in reward but a few with some risk and adventure?



Stay Dangerous, CMDRs!


- CMDR StarfireIX

 

[Boshea]

I guess a wrinkle to this is "What ship is a mission balanced around". For Cargo this is easier, but there have been reports of low rank Assassination missions pitting people against Condas. Even the Wing Assassination missions are always one engineered large ship as the target, along with a variety of combat medium ships (and one AspX for variety).

 

[StarfireIX]

I guess a wrinkle to this is "What ship is a mission balanced around". For Cargo this is easier, but there have been reports of low rank Assassination missions pitting people against Condas. Even the Wing Assassination missions are always one engineered large ship as the target, along with a variety of combat medium ships (and one AspX for variety).

Agreed. There could also be a system where the mission board checks what ship you're in and gives you missions suitable for your abilities. There is something similar in game but they should be tweaked.

 

[vidslo]

Honestly, Fdev has shown that they DO and CAN listen. The feedback forums have been a rather great way of doing so.

I suggested it on Reddit, and I'll suggest it here. Frontier Developers should really consider opening a feedback forum(s) for missions, broken down by their generic type, so that all players can share their ideas, pose their findings (and enjoyment or frustrations), and give the Dev's a more focused look at what we, the players, are seeing and our ideas on how to make things more engaging. Not only from a reward standpoint, but also from the standpoint of enjoying this great game.

I don't think right now is a good time. I'd rather they focus on C&P, but I think doing this would net them a lot of great information that will help them in getting closer to a balance that the majority of players can appreciate and enjoy.

 

[hunterm101]

I feel like FDev should give us a concrete number of what they view to be the 'upper limit' of what's possible to make per hour. They bring down entire mission types to address c/h ratios without ever telling us what they're trying to bring it down to. I feel like another problem is that they like to keep their playerbase in the dark about aspects like this, and that's another surefire way to turn players away.

 

[Alshain]

Agreed. There could also be a system where the mission board checks what ship you're in and gives you missions suitable for your abilities. There is something similar in game but they should be tweaked.

I fear such a system would be abusable. You can easily switch ships after taking a mission.

 

[StarfireIX]

True.. though if that's the case then probably a mission preference settings option in the mission board. So you could stay in one ship but then set how you want to do your missions today, like mining, combat, bounty hunting, etc.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Agreed. There could also be a system where the mission board checks what ship you're in and gives you missions suitable for your abilities. There is something similar in game but they should be tweaked.

I'm gonna tell ya - I think it already does this in some cases for cargo missions. Very often will I be in, say, an Asp with 64T of space, and I'll be given multiple haulage missions whose net tonnage equals 64T exactly.

Very good OP, btw.

The mission boards in this game need a massive overhaul, and your ideas are great.

 

[metascrawl]

This thread has been marked as serious on the title, so if you're going to drop by and leave a comment that has no meaning or relation to this thread, then look somewhere else.

Aren't you just adorable?

Got to say though, these are good ideas and you've presented them very well. Good job CMDR - I hope Frontier do notice this.

 

[Finn638]

I feel like FDev should give us a concrete number of what they view to be the 'upper limit' of what's possible to make per hour. They bring down entire mission types to address c/h ratios without ever telling us what they're trying to bring it down to. I feel like another problem is that they like to keep their playerbase in the dark about aspects like this, and that's another surefire way to turn players away.

Yeah they should. I think they avoid doing that because not stating it explicitly allows them the freedom to arbitrarily declare what is or isn't "too much" at any time. Then again, if they put an upper limit on how much a player is allowed to earn they would have to put a reason behind that too.

But good post OP, there's too much disparity between mission payouts vs workload, it would be good if mission generation was more structured.

 

[Tikanderoga]

Agreed. There could also be a system where the mission board checks what ship you're in and gives you missions suitable for your abilities. There is something similar in game but they should be tweaked.

That is just asking for people to hop into a Sidey, accept a high paying missing, hop into their battle Conda and blast the target out of space before it can even hail you, because the mission you accepted was for a puny sidewinder.

 

[NW3]

OP, your suggestion is good. I've thought that FD should have a set of sanity checks that tweak the random missions, to make sure they are within appropriate limits (since it seems to be hard to make the RNG behave).

On that note, FD should have multiple random sequence generators (which can use the same algorithm) but which will prevent non-random sequences. That is, if you use the standard C Rand function to plot x,y coordinates, you will find that you will get noticeable clusters of points (typically on a diagonal). You want to avoid using the same random sequence to generate a group of variables. That is, you want to avoid this...

dest = rand();
credits = rand();
rank = rand();

... because dest, credits, and rank will be correlated, since rand() is a pseudo random number generator. Instead, use something like this:

dest = randDestination();
credits = randCredits();
rank = randMinumumRank();

... to avoid clusters of non-randomness, by ensuring that each initial seed is different and each function maintains a separate sequence by using setseed() and getseed(); of course the C rand() function doesn't have a getseed(), so you'll need to write your own; that's a good thing, since the C rand() function is terrible.

If FD is reading this, go search the Suggestions forum for my post (quite a while ago) on quality pseudo random number generators. PM me, if you can't find it or look for the original ACM article, published years ago.

 

[StarfireIX]

That is just asking for people to hop into a Sidey, accept a high paying missing, hop into their battle Conda and blast the target out of space before it can even hail you, because the mission you accepted was for a puny sidewinder.

They could lock the mission to the ship, like with bounties for the C&P system. So if you have a cargo mission accepted and you want to quickly switch to another ship, the cargo stays in the ship or station until you swap back to that ship. It might be a bit frustrating, especially if you see a good combat mission but you're in a trade ship. But you could perhaps save the mission so when you come back it's still available.

 

[Chaparral]

So I like this, but I'm missing the part about the BGS. That damn thing messes with the available missions at every station. Is your intention that this offering be independent of the BGS? If so I would support it 100 percent, and I'd like to see you do work ups on all generic mission types.

 

[Hessfire]

I have another thread in F & S suggesting a rework of the Mission system as well, but would ask if I could present some of my ideas here with you for discussion as well. I would also ask how the system you are proposing addresses the Multiplier Money (Manna from Heaven) that is currently present in the Wing Missions?

 

[sedilbur]

Why using so much rng in mission generation ?

I mean why not putting a set of various and validated rewards in a table [ 100k, 500k, 1m, 2m, 4m, 8m, 16m]. Same for quantity [50t, 100t, 200t, 400t, 800t].
- Just example -
Then using rank, reputation to choose the index of the tables to use.

Then only rng the destination ? With adding a bonus reward algorithm depending of distance and travel ?

You can also randomized the commodity type for variety and not feeling always the same. ( slaves,palladium, bio waste , gold)

It's a just simple and maybe stupid suggestion. But I just try to help. I am not a game developers.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

G [...]
Make ALL mission rewards similar or the same as eachother. If you don't want to see another "100m/h Money Maker, go to System A then B", then I suggest you look into balancing mission rewards properly for all professions of the game. You may not like what I'm about to say, but EvE Online's ways to make money are all the same and it's a 14 year old game.

They are - grind, grind and more grind

http://www.tentonhammer.com/guides/understanding-the-mission-grind-in-eve-online

https://www.engadget.com/2012/08/26/eve-evolved-making-your-first-billion-isk/

And then when that isn't enough, you can grind your wallet too: http://massivelyop.com/2016/02/15/eve-player-uses-28000-of-skill-injectors-to-create-max-character/

EVE is 14 years of utter garbarge, sorry to say. I think the only thing that keeps anyone there is that they've either tied up too much money, or are simply too addicted to the mind-numbing endless grind of Isk to PLEX to play for free to ever do anything else, and will continue to do so until they die and rot in the chairs, still grinding away.

The only redeeming quality EVE has is that I escaped that hell hole long ago - just after Goonfleet and BoB merged and nearly destroyed the game. They should have held out for more cash before selling back - enough to ensure recovery couldn't have happened.

---

Now with GRIND: Online out of the way...

I have to imagine from what I've heard in various dead-streams (I never get to watch them live), that under the hood, Elite is a massive Rube Goldberg machine of code and database tables and queries, and tables of coded database queries... and if you don't know what a Rube Goldberg machine is - go google and come back. I'll still be here. The long and short of it is, it's an incredibly over-complicated device to perform a simple task. We marvel and awe at them for the absurdity of their complexity at performing a simple task, such as pouring a cup of tea, yet requiring 1.23 million individual moving parts to make it happen.

Perhaps the ultimate solution is a bit of simplification? I can't say for sure - I can't claim to know, only suspect from the results I see and what little gets said. I'd love to see an in-depth "This is how it works under the hood" series of streams, if for no other reason, to sate my own curiosity.

I also suspect there are a number of particularly brilliant minds at work behind the scenes - perhaps a bit too brilliant, and they've made things vastly more complex than they really need to be, entirely on accident, because it's the way their minds work. It's a strange phenomenon that afflicts the particularly brilliant - the smarter they get the more difficult simple things become for them, and the more complex they need the simplest things to be in order to be able to comprehend them.

This phenomenon occurs in other areas too - if you're familiar with the phrase "over-engineering", happen to be a particularly clever engineer or have ever watched or worked with one, you get it.

Normal Person: I need a more efficient way to turn on the light in my office.

Engineer: Spends 16 weeks studying, making diagrams, calculating, verifying, designing, analyzing, prototyping, and finally coming up with a solution - an infrared activated, motion-sensing, self-articulating device that can follow and track you as you approach your office, and send a signal to activate the lights when you are the optimal distance away from your office.

Any other normal person: Installs a second switch near the door.

 

[StarfireIX]

I have another thread in F & S suggesting a rework of the Mission system as well, but would ask if I could present some of my ideas here with you for discussion as well. I would also ask how the system you are proposing addresses the Multiplier Money (Manna from Heaven) that is currently present in the Wing Missions?

Certainly! Also with wing missions, they might follow the same principle with the example of rank, reputation and smuggling. If you were to be in a sidewinder and you were winged with a few guys doing a wing mission, you might be still capped but you will still get a decent amount of CR. Wing missions could also be a little more dangerous than the standard missions, since you're in a wing with others or perhaps by yourself. If you did a mission to smuggle 2,000t of commodities to a station and you were pulled by a Thargoid, then your wing could potentially act as an escort to protect you as you make your journey to the destination. (Although pulling someone from hyperspace might land you anywhere, however escorts might be a good thing to have in wing missions)

So I like this, but I'm missing the part about the BGS. That damn thing messes with the available missions at every station. Is your intention that this offering be independent of the BGS? If so I would support it 100 percent, and I'd like to see you do work ups on all generic mission types.

These ideas are part of the reward and mission system in general, however I've been working on a couple of images and writing for the next thread regarding BGS and PowerPlay. With regards to BGS, I think it should be an activity where CMDRs of their player faction help control and expand their territory, as well as protect it from enemy attacks. States and Orders could be done by the daily tick, but progression with expansion or objectives would be done in real-time.

Why using so much rng in mission generation ?

I mean why not putting a set of various and validated rewards in a table [ 100k, 500k, 1m, 2m, 4m, 8m, 16m]. Same for quantity [50t, 100t, 200t, 400t, 800t].
- Just example -
Then using rank, reputation to choose the index of the tables to use.

Then only rng the destination ? With adding a bonus reward algorithm depending of distance and travel ?

You can also randomized the commodity type for variety and not feeling always the same. ( slaves,palladium, bio waste , gold)

It's a just simple and maybe stupid suggestion. But I just try to help. I am not a game developers.

I don't have a problem with that, honestly. The developers do want to have some sort of variation somewhere, though. But either way, straight payouts can be pretty good too.

 

[Finn638]

I also suspect there are a number of particularly brilliant minds at work behind the scenes - perhaps a bit too brilliant, and they've made things vastly more complex than they really need to be, entirely on accident, because it's the way their minds work. It's a strange phenomenon that afflicts the particularly brilliant - the smarter they get the more difficult simple things become for them, and the more complex they need the simplest things to be in order to be able to comprehend them.

Doesn't work quite as simply as that. When you're dealing with complex systems, making things simple is difficult. As Albert Einstein said, "The definition of genius is taking the complex and making it simple". From my experience working on maths problems in college, there is a multitude of solutions to almost any given problem - from long and complex to simple and elegant. It's the simple and elegant solutions that are the most elusive.

Time is a big consideration here. It could take a long time to work out the most effective and efficient solution; often you just have to settle for the best you could come up with given the time constraints (and smarter people actually find better and more elegant solution quicker). And I'm sure the devs have their deadlines, so they can't take all the time in the world to make everything the best it can be.

Even the things we think are very efficient and genius today will look stupid in a 100 years because people will find better ways of doing the same thing, there will always be room for improvement for just about anything.

This is not an argument for, or against FDev; this is simply to point out that complexity is not side effect of being too brilliant, it has more to do with the balance of workload against time.

 

[StarfireIX]

They are - grind, grind and more grind

http://www.tentonhammer.com/guides/understanding-the-mission-grind-in-eve-online

https://www.engadget.com/2012/08/26/eve-evolved-making-your-first-billion-isk/

And then when that isn't enough, you can grind your wallet too: http://massivelyop.com/2016/02/15/eve-player-uses-28000-of-skill-injectors-to-create-max-character/

EVE is 14 years of utter garbarge, sorry to say. I think the only thing that keeps anyone there is that they've either tied up too much money, or are simply too addicted to the mind-numbing endless grind of Isk to PLEX to play for free to ever do anything else, and will continue to do so until they die and rot in the chairs, still grinding away.

The only redeeming quality EVE has is that I escaped that hell hole long ago - just after Goonfleet and BoB merged and nearly destroyed the game. They should have held out for more cash before selling back - enough to ensure recovery couldn't have happened.

---

Now with GRIND: Online out of the way...

I have to imagine from what I've heard in various dead-streams (I never get to watch them live), that under the hood, Elite is a massive Rube Goldberg machine of code and database tables and queries, and tables of coded database queries... and if you don't know what a Rube Goldberg machine is - go google and come back. I'll still be here. The long and short of it is, it's an incredibly over-complicated device to perform a simple task. We marvel and awe at them for the absurdity of their complexity at performing a simple task, such as pouring a cup of tea, yet requiring 1.23 million individual moving parts to make it happen.

Perhaps the ultimate solution is a bit of simplification? I can't say for sure - I can't claim to know, only suspect from the results I see and what little gets said. I'd love to see an in-depth "This is how it works under the hood" series of streams, if for no other reason, to sate my own curiosity.

I also suspect there are a number of particularly brilliant minds at work behind the scenes - perhaps a bit too brilliant, and they've made things vastly more complex than they really need to be, entirely on accident, because it's the way their minds work. It's a strange phenomenon that afflicts the particularly brilliant - the smarter they get the more difficult simple things become for them, and the more complex they need the simplest things to be in order to be able to comprehend them.

This phenomenon occurs in other areas too - if you're familiar with the phrase "over-engineering", happen to be a particularly clever engineer or have ever watched or worked with one, you get it.

Normal Person: I need a more efficient way to turn on the light in my office.

Engineer: Spends 16 weeks studying, making diagrams, calculating, verifying, designing, analyzing, prototyping, and finally coming up with a solution - an infrared activated, motion-sensing, self-articulating device that can follow and track you as you approach your office, and send a signal to activate the lights when you are the optimal distance away from your office.

Any other normal person: Installs a second switch near the door.

Mission grinding in EvE is probably the only slight downside I see from the game, but somewhere there is always a grind. The way I look at the game is how you do the professions that can land you big in-game money. If you go to an area where it's null-sec/Anarchy for example, you would be expected to be in danger by powerful pirates for the sake of acquiring a lot of credits. This I think there isn't enough Risk in Elite, since nowadays people just blow up skimmers in a few seconds and then complete their mission without any worry.

I would really like to see some sort of fix to the mission system anyway, with the ideas presented here if possible. All I want to see really is a galaxy where you can make money in any particular profession you want to do; whether it is mining, combat, exploration surveys, etc.