Shield Cells OP

[Defacto]

I like them personally. They are available for everyone to use so there's no unfairness.

I don't think the answer is to remove them, therefore removing game content.

While I don't disagree with you when it comes to just this point, I don't think you could say that it's not unfair just because everyone can have them. That's not how things work...

And while I think there are better solutions than removing them, I don't really think they count as content.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

To balance it I would limit it to just 1, then I would do one of 2 things, either make it weaker when used or increase the downsides of equipping it.

1. Add a cooldown of 30 or 40 seconds to it, it'll remove ability to just tank damage. Increase the delay before it starts working, to require better timing.

Or

2. Double the power draw, making it harder to equip shield cells and great weapons and other equipment without power issues. Increase the ammo costs to at least 200cr. Lastly have it drain your sys capacity during use, making it harder to naturally regenerate your shields afterwards.

 

[Meritz]

How about this:

1. Remove ammo
2. Shield cell is now a one-shot thing - you use it as usual, and it works its magic as usual, but then you have to recharge it
3. You recharge the cell by holding down the use button, or relevant trigger if it is mapped to a fire group. It takes roughly the same amount of time to charge the shield cell as it does to do a warrant or cargo scan (maybe better grade cells charge faster or draw less energy). While charging, the cell will draw a massive amount of energy from your system capacitors. All of them.
4. Once recharged, it can be used again as usual.

This will make pilots think, first, when to use the cell, and when to just shunt power to shields; and second, recharging it is not something you do lightly, at least not in combat, as it can easily deplete your subsystem capacitors, leaving you unable to boost, fire weapons or recharge the shield. Or all three at once, depending on your power distribution system and capacitor levels.

I think that would be balanced. It would be there as a tactical tool, it would require careful use and it would even bring other modules into play.

 

[Ledo]

this would be a good way of balancing.

It is already balanced. Everyone can get the same modules as everyone else. This balancing and equality will just cheapen the game and work you put in. I didnt put in all that time to be equal with the new players. The shield cell bank is a good module and would rather it stay in.

 

[Julio Montega]

When i was pirating in a viper with a class c3 power dist and a class c3 shield i was able to "tank" 2 police vipers and an eagle
with 4 pips to shields and the occasional shield cell, while looting the cans.
I was using a class c2 shield cell every so often and was fine, without evasive maneuvers
and with constant rain of fire on my shields.

It was a bit hilarious,
and i cannot take the NPC Police serious,
if i am allowed to do this.

In my cobra and eagle i turn tail and run,
even though i had the same shield cell module installed.
The cobras shields are recharged slowly by it,
and it works fine here, it is not too powerful a tool,
to make me fly straight into the fire of a turret-a-conda.

In the viper i just continue to loot on,
in a slow pace, ignoring the cop-npcs firing on me...

 

[Digs]

Gotta love how people still don't know how these things work but call for them to be nerfed....

So many of the anti-cell people claiming they instantly refill your shields, that they are constantly spammable for however long you want or that they somehow remove any "shield management"...

Also WHAT shield management? putting power into sys? Thats not really shield management... its not like putting more power into it raises shield recharge rate or such.

Shield Cells are not an instant refill unless you have tiny shields, the recharge is an over time thing and can easily be countered in most cases by a single weapon firing on them. They have an ammo limit, sure this can be increased by more banks at the moment but if people are spamming them like lots of people are claiming then those 30 odd shots aren't going to last any time at all SPECIALLY if they actually HAVE to spam them like that because that means there shields are constantly being torn away so once there out there shields will go down fast.

People claiming these remove gameplay or don't add anything don't understand how they work or what they are really talking about, allowing players a defensive mechanic that they control but have limitations for is very close to the definition of added complexity, what next chaff launchers OP because people keep spamming them so your sidewinder with 2x gimbal weapons can't hit them?

100% agree, I'm starting to think the OP is just trolling tbh.

 

[Atinus]

Not every pilot will want to prolong the encounter - the shield cell is a defensive module and can be used to assist the pilot when they wish to flee.

This is true. The lesson I think is to double check who you're up against. Don't forget your Sun Tzu, "the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory." Or, "He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot will be victorious." Or, "It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles..."

As for prolonging, "What is essential in war is victory, not prolonged operations." And, "There is no instance of a nation benefiting from prolonged warfare."

Basically, every battle is already won or lost before it is even fought. So, my suggestion is to check a potential opponent's modules before engaging. Assess your enemy, Sun Tzu says, "It is the rule in war, if ten times the enemy's strength, surround them; if five times, attack them; if double, be able to divide them; if equal, engage them; if fewer, be able to evade them; if weaker, be able to avoid them." If you're out of you're element, you need to flee, preferably by not running away, but pulling a Han Solo and turning into the enemy to reduce the time he has to fire, whilst engaging the jump drive.

So, on topic, I agree shield cells are needed for smaller ships to have a chance of escape when they are outmatched. It might make PvP tedious in larger ships, but then again, it took three hours for the USS Monitor and the CSS Merrimack to fight to a standstill.

 

[Defacto]

I don't think shield cells would be the right tool for small ships that need to escape
Better to have something specialized for that IMO

And I don't understand why a real-life naval fight taking 3 hours is a reason for tedious fights being ok

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

It is already balanced. Everyone can get the same modules as everyone else. This balancing and equality will just cheapen the game and work you put in. I didnt put in all that time to be equal with the new players. The shield cell bank is a good module and would rather it stay in.

That argument makes no sense, just because something can be used by anyone doesn't make it balanced and good for game play. For example if they made a new laser that used zero heat and was stronger than the pulse laser would that be balanced because everyone can use it? No.

The call for balance isn't asking for everything to be equal but to make sure there isn't one optimum loadout for everyone. What fun would it be if everyone used the same ship, same weapons, same utilities and same internal equipment?

 

[Phaaded]

And, so it begins... the cry for devolution into balance madness and flavor of the week mechanics. I hate MMOs for this very reason.

You hate MMO's because of blatantly overpowered and gamebreaking items existing in them, and people calling that very fact out?

Haha, there's the door.

 

[Atinus]

I don't think shield cells would be the right tool for small ships that need to escape
Better to have something specialized for that IMO

Except they're actually effective at enabling escape. Say, you're in a Sidewinder or Eagle and get alphaed by an Asp with big guns. The shield cell lets you repower your shields en route to a hasty escape. The "right" tool is the one that works.

And I don't understand why a real-life naval fight taking 3 hours is a reason for tedious fights being ok

Then don't fly around in a big battleship. Stick to dog fighting in smaller ships against smaller ships if quick combat is your thing. But the bigger ships by necessity are going to be tougher to bring down.

I imagine watching two fully decked out Anacondas go at it would be a prolonged affair if both were committed. Measures and countermeasures until somebody gains an advantage. It *is* akin to naval combat.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The call for balance isn't asking for everything to be equal but to make sure there isn't one optimum loadout for everyone. What fun would it be if everyone used the same ship, same weapons, same utilities and same internal equipment?

.... but surely the "optimum loadout" will be determined at some point, regardless of any buffing or nerfing of individual ships or modules? The only question is how much better it will be than the next best...

 

[bassman]

It is already balanced. Everyone can get the same modules as everyone else.

Your missing the point, noone is claiming that they are somehow "unfair" since obviously anyone can use it. The problem is that when one particular thing is too powerful it becomes the only viable choice unless you want to deliberately put yourself at a disadvantage vs other players and/or NPCs .

ED has a long history of this being the case before said thing was "nerfed" a bit - in early beta gimbaled weapons started off being the only viable choice until their aim range and accuracy was reduced, next was railguns, again they started off so good that it was pointless using anything else if you could aim half decently, following that cannons became the next weapon-for-all occasions to the point where almost every CMDR would have to equip a couple or never win a fight vs another CMDR. All of these have been toned down and the game is much the better for it with much more scope for varied loadouts and tactics.

It seem clear to me that shield cells are the next thing that needs a bit of tweaking. However as I said in a earlier post I think the problem runs a little deeper this time as use of vanilla cargo space for military equipment somewhat undermines the ship role specialisation dynamic. If it were me I would have a set amount of space with military fitting capability and the rest only usable for cargo or non-military equipment, a viper could have all military grade rack space (which could be used for plain cargo if you desired) thus reinforcing its primary role. A bigger less specialised ship like the cobra would have less military grade capacity than the viper but a lot more vanilla space reinforcing its role as an all-rounder.

 

[Defacto]

Except they're actually effective at enabling escape. Say, you're in a Sidewinder or Eagle and get alphaed by an Asp with big guns. The shield cell lets you repower your shields en route to a hasty escape. The "right" tool is the one that works.



Then don't fly around in a big battleship. Stick to dog fighting in smaller ships against smaller ships if quick combat is your thing. But the bigger ships by necessity are going to be tougher to bring down.

I imagine watching two fully decked out Anacondas go at it would be a prolonged affair if both were committed. It *is* akin to naval combat.

They're pretty effective at anything that doesn't involve you exploding, which kind of is a problem with them.

And for that second part, you made it sound like something being tedious is ok because reality. I'm not sure what you are going on about with ''don't fly big battleships''. Fights in ED never take 3 hours, even with shield cells.

 

[Sonicdark]

So with all this talk of nerfing shield spec ships what would be added to compensate for lack of shield boosting? Shields are already weak against lasers so there would need to be a module that improves shield resistance in order to balance armor and shield builds. Keep in mind that the shield generator does not count as a defensive balance because reinforced bulkheads are passive AND all players can equip type A shield generator. At the end of the day the easy fix is to know what ships you can engage and avoid the ones that you cannot. Remember, just because your ship is considered a "Jack of all trades" doesn't mean it can engage every other ship out there.

 

[Rilman]

While I don't disagree with you when it comes to just this point, I don't think you could say that it's not unfair just because everyone can have them. That's not how things work...

And while I think there are better solutions than removing them, I don't really think they count as content.

It can work anyway we decide we want it to work, in a game.

I would ague that they are content, they are a part of the game, a part that adds an additional layer to fighting tactics.

They probably need a cooldown timer if I'm honest.

 

[Atinus]

They're pretty effective at anything that doesn't involve you exploding, which kind of is a problem with them.

No, that's their advantage. The alternative might be for starter ships to have no means of escape against a superior foe.

And, we should mention the fact that if you wait too long to activate your shield cell, *it won't work*! I've had that happen a half dozen times, where I still have shield cell ammunition, but an opponent took out my shield because I waited too long. So, there's still skill involved with using them, and certainly skill involved with getting your opponent's shields down.

And for that second part, you made it sound like something being tedious is ok because reality. I'm not sure what you are going on about with ''don't fly big battleships''. Fights in ED never take 3 hours, even with shield cells.

I never said they did. I'm saying when a full array of countermeasures are employed by adversaries, particularly in a game like this, combat will necessarily take longer. A bigger ship with more shield cells, harder armor, etc. is simply going to take longer to defeat. It's akin to combat between 20th level mages employing globes of invulnerability.

In this case, I like the mechanic precisely because it gives the outmatched opponent an opportunity to flee. That to me outweighs combat being a slightly more prolonged affair when upgraded ships meet one another. What's next? No armor upgrades because it "takes too long" to kill the opponent?

And I don't think they're overpowered.

 

[bassman]

a part that adds an additional layer to fighting tactics.

It does and thats good, but when something has a tangible downside as well that tends to make it more interesting. Its why for example the silent running mode is more interesting than an out and out cloaking device (athough its arguable that silent running has too much downside for its upside).

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So with all this talk of nerfing shield spec ships what would be added to compensate for lack of shield boosting? Shields are already weak against lasers so there would need to be a module that improves shield resistance in order to balance armor and shield builds.

We had been playing the game for almost a year before we had shield generators and I dont remember any complaints about shields not being strong enough in general.

 

[Defacto]

No, that's their advantage. The alternative might be for starter ships to have no means of escape against a superior foe.

And, we should mention the fact that if you wait too long to activate your shield cell, *it won't work*! I've had that happen a half dozen times, where I still have shield cell ammunition, but an opponent took out my shield because I waited too long. So, there's still skill involved with using them, and certainly skill involved with getting your opponent's shields down.



I never said they did. I'm saying when a full array of countermeasures are employed by adversaries, particularly in a game like this, combat will necessarily take longer. A bigger ship with more shield cells, harder armor, etc. is simply going to take longer to defeat. It's akin to combat between 20th level mages employing globes of invulnerability.

In this case, I like the mechanic precisely because it gives the outmatched opponent an opportunity to flee. That to me outweighs combat being a slightly more prolonged affair when upgraded ships meet one another. What's next? No armor upgrades because it "takes too long" to kill the opponent?

And I don't think they're overpowered.

I think a better alternative would be something more interesting than a shield potion.

I'm really not disagreeing with most of what you are saying, but I simply don't like how shield cells are implemented in this game... at all.
And really, in the end, it's the high-end ''pro'' players who will use these thing to their fullest ability, not the new people.

I think something similar to this was said when Fa Off allowed you to fly at boost speed forever. It will help traders escape from evil pirates! No it will not, it means that the evil Viper pirates can fly at a constant 400 m/s.

 

[Robert Maynard]

It does and thats good, but when something has a tangible downside as well that tends to make it more interesting. Its why for example the silent running mode is more interesting than an out and out cloaking device.

Shield cells take up a module slot and add weight to the ship, reducing jump range. For a combat ship, maybe the loss of a slot that would otherwise take up a scanner or cargo rack is not too much of a downside - for a trader or miner it would be more if a trade-off.