Shield Regeneration Lasers

[NeilF]

Maybe this could finally mark an end to accidental npc murder, by just healing non-targets. Nice.

Effectively sees an end to single players taking on NPC wings, though.

It does risk falling foul of the standard ED issue... Why outfit your ship other than with what is perfect for the job? eg: Why put refuel limpets on your trading ship and waste space/profit? So when you finally get a chance to save another ship (refuel it), you can't...

In the same fashion, it would be fair to assume this laser would most likely do less damage to a foe than a regular laser? So most people will not use it for general solo gameplay? So when you want to heal a friendly NPC... you won't have it fitted...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Hi Mike, is this example really going in the game? If so, does David fully support this type of RPG feature?

I'm sure David Braben fully supports the idea of adding Rocket Propelled Grenades as special weapons in the near future...

 

[TomP]

[video=youtube_share;Iu7vySQbgXI]http://youtu.be/Iu7vySQbgXI[/video]

I have to say this is one of those issues I really don't understand what the complaints are about I actually think its a novel idea that I hadn't really thought of, it won't effect a vast majority of the playerbase because they fly solo but i'm sure it'll be a fun little extra for wings to try and help each other out when things go south.

Are there any arguments other than its silly?

No.

After all, there's nothing inherently silly about grown men and women flying around pretend space ships and going pew-pew, now is there?

We've already had a real life laser expert tell us this is silly, so we should jolly well keep any cheerfulness to ourselves.

 

[bitstorm]

Heh, reverse griefing.

Find ships whose shields are damaged, interdict them and heal their shields

This would be good, and being able to do it with NPCs too say in the distress scenario or whatever.

Based on the limited information available, the way this appears to work though is....

If not in wing do damage, if in wing regen shield.

While I love the idea of shield regen beams and the variety it brings to the table, I'm not too keen on using "winged" as a switch. It takes single player use completely off the table.

A wing switch would essentially arbitrarily limit usage of this item which is a shame, not keen on arbitrary limits. I think I understand why it will have been done this way...

In mid-combat the proposed solution is quick and easy, just target a friend and fire, and it does not require additional gui elements. However I think some gui switch to switch "modes" on a per modules basis might be preferable, to increase the variety of uses of the item by putting it directly under the player's control.

Yes there will then be a load more possibilities of how this item (and similar ones) will be used and those scenarios will have to be programmed for (ie npcs being regenned), and no doubt that will increase time to implement and also increase the likelihood of some form of abuse or exploit appearing, but it also brings the "emergent gameplay" thing to the table we all love.

Actually I am wondering if it's (probably) been done this literally due to time constraints, the code for player regen is in but not npc regen, therefore using a winged switch means they call it done and move onto one of the other many things on the list they have to sort.

 

[Mephane]

If I'm honest, I really like the idea. Now someone in a wing will be have more of a supporting role as well as being able to fight, like a paladin in D&D.

See, that's the thing. On paper, it is not necessarily a bad idea. With a bit of decent world-building and supporting elements, consideration to game balance and playstyles, this can totally work. Yeah, we don't know much about it, so anything could work out just perfectly fine.

Except it hasn't in the past. I've found myself in this situation, "oh this feature doesn't sound so good, let's see how it pans out" only to find out it was exactly as bad as it sounded. For example powerplay-exclusive items. Guess what happened, exactly what the "complainers" said - people would flock to certain powers to collect stockpiles of their shiny loot, then forget about PP again; and certain PP items were more desirable than others, and the PP participation was a mirror of that.
Or let's take missions. I think we are on the verge of the 3rd "big mission improvements" update. Every time when it was said "big improvements to missions" I was so far hopeful, only for it to end in mild disappointment. From the 2.1 mission overhaul I now mostly expect to be worse off than in 2.0, because I first need to grind to super-allied to even see the benefits.

*shrugs*

Engineers could turn out totally benign. The healing beam could have such a weak effect barely anyone ever bothers. It could be useful yet balanced with decent drawbacks and reasonable effort to attain. It could be overpowered but behind a grind so massive only the most hardcore will ever have one, and get great results in their overpowered wings assault common folks at CGs.

But all we know now is
a) We need to reach a new, even higher max reputation. And major faction reputation won't count any more (what is it good for anyway in 2.1?).
b) We need to acquire a new currency to pay for engineer upgrades. Yes it is called materials but in the end it is just that, lots of token currencies that you pay to an NPC to buff your engines or shields or guns etc.
c) There will be stat upgrades.
d) There will be more unique modifications.
e) and finally the healing beam, of which we know just enough to be able to say if that is all that is there to it, it is unfitting to the game universe and the balance that has been established.

Sure, knowing all the details why and how we are wrong and why it is going to be awesome, Mike or Sandro or whoever could just chuckle at all us idiots complaining about nothing. Well, part of the complaining is about how we have barely any information to draw from.

It may very well be that picking the healing beam image was just an unfortunate choice, and the actual implementation is the best idea since sliced bread. But we are long past the point where it is enough to tell us "this is going to be awesome". Now we expect to be told why it is going to be awesome, otherwise we won't believe you.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I have to say this is one of those issues I really don't understand what the complaints are about I actually think its a novel idea that I hadn't really thought of, it won't effect a vast majority of the playerbase because they fly solo but i'm sure it'll be a fun little extra for wings to try and help each other out when things go south.

Are there any arguments other than its silly?

The other, unspoken, argument is that its new. People here are often extremely guarded against anything new. The arguments they do use are random and flawed (not "scientific", introduces "classes"). Ofcourse, energy transferring lasers are far more possible than lots of other stuff in ED, and we already have "classes" such as assassin (stealth), tank (hrp), traders, miners and explorers. Its just new, thats all.

This beam may be fun in coop, multicrew and ship-launched fighters. Glad they came up with the idea, now lets make it work.

 

[Heater]

We now have a use for the small HP's on the anaconda

 

[Nugstar]

For me, it's not how they work or even if they work. It's the bizarre concept that somewhere in the ED galaxy there actually is such a thing as a shield regeneration laser. It actually makes me laugh thinking about it.

Elite isn't and never will be 'realistic'. If it were then thrusters wouldn't have a boost function.

I personally think that these new modules should be creative, and effect the game in different ways, instead of simply tweaking the numbers.

 

[Mephane]

This would be good, and being able to do it with NPCs too say in the distress scenario or whatever.

Based on the limited information available, the way this appears to work though is....

If not in wing do damage, if in wing regen shield.

While I love the idea of shield regen beams and the variety it brings to the table, I'm not too keen on using "winged" as a switch. It takes single player use completely off the table.

A wing switch would essentially arbitrarily limit usage of this item which is a shame, not keen on arbitrary limits. I think I understand why it will have been done this way...

Why do you think it was done that way? My hypothesis is FD want it as a multiplayer-only feature, and in this form a solo player won't be able to use it at all.

In mid-combat the proposed solution is quick and easy, just target a friend and fire, and it does not require additional gui elements. However I think some gui switch to switch "modes" on a per modules basis might be preferable, to increase the variety of uses of the item by putting it directly under the player's control.

I think part of the problem is that it is a dual purpose item. It would be far more believable and much easier to balance if the modification would make it into a healing-only gun. Many problems and worries disappear then immediately, and you can explain the very existence of the device far more believably (as I suggested, a healing-only gun would deliver shield plasma to replenish a shield, using the same technology that is used to product shield cells, or by which shield cells can deploy their energy).

 

[Derath]

See, that's the thing. On paper, it is not necessarily a bad idea. With a bit of decent world-building and supporting elements, consideration to game balance and playstyles, this can totally work. Yeah, we don't know much about it, so anything could work out just perfectly fine.

Except it hasn't in the past. I've found myself in this situation, "oh this feature doesn't sound so good, let's see how it pans out" only to find out it was exactly as bad as it sounded. For example powerplay-exclusive items. Guess what happened, exactly what the "complainers" said - people would flock to certain powers to collect stockpiles of their shiny loot, then forget about PP again; and certain PP items were more desirable than others, and the PP participation was a mirror of that.
Or let's take missions. I think we are on the verge of the 3rd "big mission improvements" update. Every time when it was said "big improvements to missions" I was so far hopeful, only for it to end in mild disappointment. From the 2.1 mission overhaul I now mostly expect to be worse off than in 2.0, because I first need to grind to super-allied to even see the benefits.

I think this is faulty logic, I too thought PP would have exactly that effect and it did but examine it properly, 3/4 of the PP weaponry is useless thats a balance issue, the fact that you could flip/flop and keep modules generally encouraged everyone to just roll around building up a supply of what they wanted (I know i collected hudsons and the advanced plasma) was a bizzarre design choice.

So the complainers are right, but for the wrong reason, FD could have easily set it up so that you couldn't flip/flop or they could have actually balanced the weaponry to all be desirable both of which would make the situation a much fairer comparison but there were so many holes in it can we even use it as a comparison currently? Like if thats the comparison you might as well start complaining now because a vast majority of the modifications will be useless I don't think thats a good start point.

 

[Ian Skippy]

See, that's the thing. On paper, it is not necessarily a bad idea. With a bit of decent world-building and supporting elements, consideration to game balance and playstyles, this can totally work. Yeah, we don't know much about it, so anything could work out just perfectly fine.

Except it hasn't in the past. I've found myself in this situation, "oh this feature doesn't sound so good, let's see how it pans out" only to find out it was exactly as bad as it sounded. For example powerplay-exclusive items. Guess what happened, exactly what the "complainers" said - people would flock to certain powers to collect stockpiles of their shiny loot, then forget about PP again; and certain PP items were more desirable than others, and the PP participation was a mirror of that.
Or let's take missions. I think we are on the verge of the 3rd "big mission improvements" update. Every time when it was said "big improvements to missions" I was so far hopeful, only for it to end in mild disappointment. From the 2.1 mission overhaul I now mostly expect to be worse off than in 2.0, because I first need to grind to super-allied to even see the benefits.

*shrugs*

Engineers could turn out totally benign. The healing beam could have such a weak effect barely anyone ever bothers. It could be useful yet balanced with decent drawbacks and reasonable effort to attain. It could be overpowered but behind a grind so massive only the most hardcore will ever have one, and get great results in their overpowered wings assault common folks at CGs.

But all we know now is
a) We need to reach a new, even higher max reputation. And major faction reputation won't count any more (what is it good for anyway in 2.1?).
b) We need to acquire a new currency to pay for engineer upgrades. Yes it is called materials but in the end it is just that, lots of token currencies that you pay to an NPC to buff your engines or shields or guns etc.
c) There will be stat upgrades.
d) There will be more unique modifications.
e) and finally the healing beam, of which we know just enough to be able to say if that is all that is there to it, it is unfitting to the game universe and the balance that has been established.

Sure, knowing all the details why and how we are wrong and why it is going to be awesome, Mike or Sandro or whoever could just chuckle at all us idiots complaining about nothing. Well, part of the complaining is about how we have barely any information to draw from.

It may very well be that picking the healing beam image was just an unfortunate choice, and the actual implementation is the best idea since sliced bread. But we are long past the point where it is enough to tell us "this is going to be awesome". Now we expect to be told why it is going to be awesome, otherwise we won't believe you.

Actually, FD said each time with the mission changes before they were working under the hood and most changes wont be seen by players at the time. Explicitly. Even in the patch notes. Just so people like you wouldnt bend the truth to fuel the Whine Machine.

The main complaint with pp modules, as it is here, is that it would be OP and mess with pvp to much. That totally didnt happen, so all doom-sayers did a Cheney and now claim they never were concerned with that.

Btw, a sane person would not "demand to be told why its cool, otherwise dont believe them". A sane person would discuss how it would be best implemented.

But I guess that may bring the risk of reducing the daily dosis of whine, so mindlesz ranting it is. I guess.

 

[bitstorm]

e) and finally the healing beam, of which we know just enough to be able to say if that is all that is there to it, it is unfitting to the game universe and the balance that has been established.

Don't agree with this at all. Stating it's not possible requires knowledge of how shields would work "in real life". This is why you're not an engineer. =p

"Healing" also known as recharging shield capacity, regening or strengthening a shield.

I mean based on the assumption that some emitter placed on a ship can actually produce a shield, then why on earth is it so ridiculous to think some emitter external to the shield can reinforce that shield. Ultimately it works in just the same way as shields no?

 

[Mephane]

So the complainers are right, but for the wrong reason, FD could have easily set it up so that you couldn't flip/flop or they could have actually balanced the weaponry to all be desirable both of which would make the situation a much fairer comparison but there were so many holes in it can we even use it as a comparison currently? Like if thats the comparison you might as well start complaining now because a vast majority of the modifications will be useless I don't think thats a good start point.

That some would be desirable and others deemed useless was also part of the initial complaints. And yes, FD could have set it up better. They totally could. But they didn't. And this and other example leads be to question, why should I even still assume that FD would set this up any better?

 

[Derath]

Also unless it heals at a monstrous rate a healing laser would have no impact on PvP in its current state, infact I think its entirely limited to cooperative PvE

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

That some would be desirable and others deemed useless was also part of the initial complaints. And yes, FD could have set it up better. They totally could. But they didn't. And this and other example leads be to question, why should I even still assume that FD would set this up any better?

Because whats the point if you assume they are going to mess everything up from the start? In principle I agree with you - their track record for balance sucks and I suspect there will be many many holes in things they implement. I won't discuss things from that perspective however because its pointless to do so if you've reached the stage where you assume everything's going to be bad why post at all? Discuss something on its own merits, if they implement it terribly thats their own problem

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Because whats the point if you assume they are going to mess everything up from the start?

Its the best position to hold. That way you will never be disappointed.

However, saying they are going to mess it up before anything is released is putting the cart before the horse, counting the chickens before they have hatched, and many other proverbs that mean the same thing. This is why proverbs exist actually.... old bits of wisdom that people should always keep in mind. Just doesn't stop people discarding the wisdom of the ancients.

 

[lysan]

http://youtu.be/Iu7vySQbgXI




No.

After all, there's nothing inherently silly about grown men and women flying around pretend space ships and going pew-pew, now is there?

We've already had a real life laser expert tell us this is silly, so we should jolly well keep any cheerfulness to ourselves.

I actually question that "Laser expert", because it is possible, at least on paper, however my concern here is that the DEVS just got lucky and didn't check if this was even plausible. From a game point of view I still need to see how it will work, but I'm skeptical due to several reasons.

If this is lasers what will we see on projectile weapons? at some point the game play reason becomes silly (not saying it is the case here), but there is a borderline and I am afraid we are about to cross it. This game was suppose to be closer to science than arcade games (according to David Braben) so its very important to keep it that way. Otherwise we will end up with a lot of feature that is just a waste of development time.

Spoiler

[video=youtube;7xZ0MBdy5M0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xZ0MBdy5M0[/video]

 

[TomP]

I'm just really pleased that there will be more to The Engineers than percentage increases in module function.

If anything, I want more outlandish ideas, not fewer. If nothing else, the hilarious RAEG it provokes is an absolute treat on a wet Friday. Just imagine if there isn't a straightforward way to increase FSD range on your FdL. Teeheehee.

 

[Nutter]

Can I petition that this thread is moved to the sky is falling section of the forum as soon as the forum is overhauled?

It will go in the RPG forum, where it belongs

 

[Huros]

Holy molly that's going to be a lot of threads, might need a new sub-forum for it.

Do it mike, ring fence it so we know where to go for a whinge fest.

 

[Mephane]

Because whats the point if you assume they are going to mess everything up from the start?

It's probably just a matter of catharsis. Speaking about it is better than just brooding in silent frustration.

And again, maybe the choice of example was just unfortunate. Maybe this healing beam turns out to be no big deal and everyone will return to normal business once it is revealed in full detail (e.g. in the beta). Am actually more worried about the stat increases for "all modules", but we know too little about that to go into a heated discussion. I'll complain extensively about that once we know what kind of increases and what the drawbacks are (if there are any).

Btw drawbacks, that's an important point. The healing laser may have drawbacks simply not listed in that fateful picture. Could do 50% less damage when directed against foes, heals only rather weakly, overheats even quicker than a normal beam laser etc.

Imagine plasma accelerators were not yet a thing, and the only bit of information we would have is like

New weapon in 2.1: Plasma Accelerator
- Does the highest amount of damage of all weapons
- Equally useful against shields and hull

Right out of the gate, that sounds utterly overpowered while opening many questions. But in fact the thing produces massive amounts of heat, has limited and expensive ammo, can only be aimed manually, has projectile travel time and a low rate of fire; it is indeed quite well-balanced and useful while not overpowered.