Should ship transfers have a time delay or not?

[Lobstris]

Question!

Remember back when people were calling for ship deliveries?

Back then... did anyone actually specify that there should be a time delay? Yes, yes, it might seem obvious and not even something that should be mentioned, but did anyone who was asking for it think to specifiy it?

I've quoted what the initial DDF proposal said previously, essentially that the transfer was 'magic (perhaps on the back of a big freighter)'. But it did not go into detail about what 'magic' meant, as to whether that referred both to the mode and the duration of transfer.

ARRRGH!!!!

Just looked for that post again, and found one from Tom Kewell dated 15/7/13, which reads:

Players can store ships they are not currently piloting

• Initially the player will have nowhere to store a ship
• The player will be able to rent (or buy) hangar space – for an initial fee, and then a rental. Not all stations will have storage space, and some will be cheaper than others. Storage spaces will come in a range of sizes (s,m,l). There isn’t a cap to the number of ships a player can store this way, other than the drain on their cash
• A number of different facilities can offer ship storage, with a range of different prices
  • E.g. functional - shipyard storage, luxury – High end Storage attached to high end residencies in central locations, cheap – warehouses in remote locations
• Storage fees are deducted daily from their account, and there is an additional fee in some locations (generally the cheap ones) to retrieve the ship from storage, when the player wishes to pilot the ship again
  • The fee increases over in-game time only (i.e. if you’re logged off it won’t increase)
• Players can store their ships at multiple locations
  • Registering a new location for ship storage costs a fixed one-time fee
  • Once registered a player can visit that location or any other registered storage location they have to arrange ship transfers between them which costs a fee to transport them, based on distance and law level of the intervening route (though the transfer happens magically – perhaps on a giant freighter).
• Players can only swap their current ship whilst in a registered storage location
  • If the desired ship isn’t present then the player must arrange a transfer which costs a fee and takes time based on the distance the transferred ship needs to travel to get to the current storage location
    • The same restrictions and pricing as above are applied here too
  • Once the transfer is complete the player is notified and is able to dock and swap their ships putting their old ship in storage at that location providing they can also pay the storage fee accumulated for the transferred ship since it went into storage (including all previous storage locations it’s been at and transferred from since last flown)
  • Cargo and equipment can be transferred for a fee, as with ship purchase.

Edit: Ninja'ed by Yaffle when looking for the post.

 

[S'Rau]

The delay should be inversely related to the ship's FSD multiplied proportionally by the quality and quantity of weapons : put a s****y FSD on a beefed up the ship = long delay, good FSD on a an unarmed vessel = short delay.
I'd even spice it by adding the mass of the ship in the equation ... just to prevent Corvette/Cutter ninja move across the galaxy and indirectly reducing their need/use (ie nerfing them without touching their stats).

 

[ahwala]

Delay has nothing to do with immersion or realism and everything to do with balanced play mechanics. If you add a ship teleport option which allows you to circumvent manual travel, you now have two ways to move your ship from point A–>B, where you used to have only one option. Those options have to be weighted against each other in terms of benefits and drawbacks. If one choice is CLEARLY better than another choice, then there's no point in having both options. Instant teleport is always the better choice, and that's a shame. This is a game about flying spaceships and we're introducing disincentives to actually flying your spaceship. Simultaneously we're throwing the whole ship ecosystem out the window. Relative jump abilities between ships and between modules is now meaningless.

This one change addresses the "mile wide, inch deep" criticism by simultaneously making the gameworld smaller and shallower. That's a shame and it's one of the clearest signs I've seen so far that devs are in pure reaction mode and that there is no clear vision for Elite anymore. If this change goes through as planned, I will expect many more thoughtless decisions to come.

Thanks.

If this change goes through as planned, I'm out. It's so unfortunate and sad to see this great galaxy go to waste.

 

[Otherwhere]

Think of all the potential game play challenges they could implement with an actual ship transport system:
•transports could be attacked en route
•ships could be stolen, held for ransom
•Thargoids could destroy them

Insta-travel is easy for Frontier to do, but at a loss to the game and to potential game play.

 

[warbaby2]

Thanks.

If this change goes through as planned, I'm out. It's so unfortunate and sad to see this great galaxy go to waste.

Yup - hate to say it, but since the game I originally backed seams to be slowly dissolving before out eyes, I tend to agree.

 

[Bobbydylan]

I remember an interview with David Braben back when Elite was still in development (or maybe shortly after release), saying that they endevour to make Elite as scientifically plausable as possible except where gameplay demands otherwise. Hyperjump was an example of this exception. I don;t see instant transfers as another.

Adding a delay does nothing to the game but make it more plausible.

 

[Privata]

Question!

Remember back when people were calling for ship deliveries?

Back then... did anyone actually specify that there should be a time delay? Yes, yes, it might seem obvious and not even something that should be mentioned, but did anyone who was asking for it think to specifiy it?

No , but I expected it to be there as without one it just makes no sense and feels like something from an ubisoft game not an elite game.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I've quoted what the initial DDF proposal said previously, essentially that the transfer was 'magic (perhaps on the back of a big freighter)'. But it did not go into detail about what 'magic' meant, as to whether that referred both to the mode and the duration of transfer.

ARRRGH!!!!

Just looked for that post again, and found one from Tom Kewell dated 15/7/13, which reads:



Edit: Ninja'ed by Yaffle when looking for the post.

All the gameplay... all the immersion.

why loose it? what do we gain? nothing , we loose so much.

 

[Monk]

Thanks.

If this change goes through as planned, I'm out. It's so unfortunate and sad to see this great galaxy go to waste.

Yup - hate to say it, but since the game I originally backed seams to be slowly dissolving before out eyes, I tend to agree.

Ugh, I'll swallow this pill if it comes to it. Though, I've been mulling, if support is strong enough, there should be a boycott of the 2.2 beta until this is addressed.

 

[Lobstris]

Thanks.

If this change goes through as planned, I'm out. It's so unfortunate and sad to see this great galaxy go to waste.

Yup - hate to say it, but since the game I originally backed seams to be slowly dissolving before out eyes, I tend to agree.

With due respect guys. I was of the same opinion, but I've come to the conclusion that's cutting your nose of to spite your face. I'm just swapping to Solo *if* it turns out bad. That way Elite will still be Elite. The galaxy will still be there. The story will still be there. The dynamism of the BGS changing system states will still be there. Just people pooping Anacondas out of Asps won't be.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Frontier decided way back before 1.0 was released that ED (inside the bubble) was going to be about the destination not the journey:
- highly variable and large jump ranges compared with size of bubble make bottlenecks or common routes non-existent
- arrival at star means with a decent scoop you can refill your tank before the FSD cooldown is done in many ships, and it doesn't take that long in others
- scooping is safe and reliable, not a last resort, and available in almost all systems
- most ships carry enough fuel to make several jumps in a row
- even in-system interdictions are considerably rarer (and easier to evade) than their Elite/FE2/FFE equivalents, especially in low-security/anarchy systems

and then following on from that
- 2.0 added the ability to increase jump range temporarily by 100%
- 2.1 added the ability to easily increase jump range permanently by 50%
- 2.2 adds the ability to use white dwarf stars (common in the bubble) to get a significant one-off range boost

Instant ship transfer within the bubble would just be more of the same - and not that much more of it, either.

Any delay that's actually more than just an inconvenience it would already be quicker to just go and get the ship yourself. A delay of up to 30 minutes is either absolutely nothing (set the transfer order, go have dinner / play a different game / post on the forums, come back) or an inconvenience which doesn't add interesting gameplay, makes the feature not worth paying the credits for in the first place, and doesn't fit with the design of the rest of the game.



If the game had been designed as journey not destination for the bubble from the start, I'd have a rather different view - a delay of a day, plus a significant charge, would make perfect sense as a transfer cost then.



(Outside the bubble, transfers to/from Jaques, I'd say are a different matter, and should probably just be disallowed as "out of range". Deep space travel is largely journey not destination, so different logic applies.)

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Question!

Remember back when people were calling for ship deliveries?

Back then... did anyone actually specify that there should be a time delay? Yes, yes, it might seem obvious and not even something that should be mentioned, but did anyone who was asking for it think to specifiy it?

Answering for myself. I don't even want ship transfers. I want the pain. I love not being able to get what I want in a jiffy. Because when I do, I have accomplished something. I also get that I'm very much the minority, so I'll have to live with it.

I also whip myself before going to bed. Helps me relax. True story.

 

[Arubeto]

Question!

Remember back when people were calling for ship deliveries?

Back then... did anyone actually specify that there should be a time delay? Yes, yes, it might seem obvious and not even something that should be mentioned, but did anyone who was asking for it think to specifiy it?

Yes, in fact everyone who ever asked for ship transport specifically requested that it should not be instant. Here are just a few examples:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/231632-Ship-Towing-Transport-Service

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/281865-Ship-transport

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/103669-Having-ships-transported-to-new-locations

If you search the forums for "Ship transport" you will find that universally everyone who ever mentioned time requested the mechanic to not be instant but take some time to complete.

 

[Monk]

Yes, in fact everyone who ever asked for ship transport specifically requested that it should not be instant. Here are just a few examples:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/231632-Ship-Towing-Transport-Service

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/281865-Ship-transport

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/103669-Having-ships-transported-to-new-locations

If you search the forums for "Ship transport" you will find that universally everyone who ever mentioned time requested the mechanic to not be instant but take some time to complete.

Which again raises the question...Where did the idea for instant txfr even come from? Is it the loach? ::goes to look up most effective loach murdering practices::

 

[Leo Sagan]

Answering for myself. I don't even want ship transfers. I want the pain. I love not being able to get what I want in a jiffy. Because when I do, I have accomplished something. I also get that I'm very much the minority, so I'll have to live with it.

I also whip myself before going to bed. Helps me relax. True story.

I had to rep this ...

 

[who?]

Answering for myself. I don't even want ship transfers. I want the pain. I love not being able to get what I want in a jiffy. Because when I do, I have accomplished something. I also get that I'm very much the minority, so I'll have to live with it.

I also whip myself before going to bed. Helps me relax. True story.

You lucky, lucky barsteward...

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Question!

Remember back when people were calling for ship deliveries?

Back then... did anyone actually specify that there should be a time delay? Yes, yes, it might seem obvious and not even something that should be mentioned, but did anyone who was asking for it think to specifiy it?

Yeah, on the (many) occasions it came up, the timing, price and potentially max range were mentioned.

 

[Mephane]

Question!

Remember back when people were calling for ship deliveries?

Back then... did anyone actually specify that there should be a time delay? Yes, yes, it might seem obvious and not even something that should be mentioned, but did anyone who was asking for it think to specifiy it?

Back then we even imagined the ships might actually fly around piloted by an NPC (and being potentially vulnerable to pirate attacks).

 

[Boff'in]

You're assuming that the cost plus the delay would still be worth abusing to shortcut the jump range ecosystem, and exploit the transfer mechanic. If it's priced right, and the delay is at least as long as the travel time (longer since it's being flown by a flunky), then most sane people will opt to fly the ship they want where they want it!

Also, realize, you are essentially arguing that all ships should have the same jump range. I don't disagree. But tacking on an instant shuttle meta exploit rather than addressing the issue directly is how you anger players.

If Frontier had just said, hey we're increasing all jump ranges to a maximum of 55LY when you plot a course from a station, because of special witch tunneling routes, then everyone would have been fine with it. Instead, they kicked over the bee hive.

Ship transfer Delay or not, changes certain playing fields.

I play for imersion, and I'm personally not bothered.
Out of laziness, I don't mind.


Price is the only factor, Ship type Multiplied by Distance.
so Jacque should be out of the question.

Delay, is another (if you want to add it as a deterent & immersion)


What about, system state? Politics?
That's what the PP players complaining about.
I speed read through a Suicide Sidewinder attempt to get to a station, then SUMMON ship of destruction.

All fair points.

So skipping delays.
It's all these other wrinkles, right?

Should we be able to summon a ship from Imperial to Federal space.

What if the system I'm in, is in war, should I be able to transfer?
What if i'm in Duvals space, and I'm pledged to another power? Surely that should clamp down my activities?
Should only "select" stations habour a Taxi service? sporatically placed throughout the bubble to allieviate silly milleage but not eliminate it?

We can start adding BGS to factor services, and fees to deter if not shut down exploitable behaviour, without resorting to delays (which I'd have, because immersion , but as a lazy developer, just give me a ticking clock on the UI for the first iteration, we can do fiddly stuff later.)

 

[ahwala]

Ugh, I'll swallow this pill if it comes to it. Though, I've been mulling, if support is strong enough, there should be a boycott of the 2.2 beta until this is addressed.

Well, even the fact that they have actually announced instantaneous ship transfer to be a thing is so unbelievably saddening that I'm lost for words. This hasn't only been considered, it's         actually been announced to be a thing. I was barely able to swallow the lacking implementation of the RNGineers and those bazillion untradedable micro-materials, but now this is so worrying that I don't see how this very same design team could come up with any future additions to the game that wouldn't disappoint me. Sandro said "we don't need any more timesinks", it's so ridiculous I don't know what to do, really. Neither would a delayed ship transfer be a timesink (as it would still be way faster than what we have now), nor were any past updates particularly time-friendly. That guy, seriously. /facepalm

 

[Monk]

Back then we even imagined the ships might actually fly around piloted by an NPC (and being potentially vulnerable to pirate attacks).

Take that a step further. You could even instruct the transfer service to avoid Medium Security and lower, where reasonably possible. It would take much longer but it would guarantee that your ship showed up intact and not missing pieces.

 

[etien]

Probably been proposed elsewhere; I think to add to 'immersion' the ship should be seen approching the base / starport and docking. That would be cool
Also why not being able to follow the progress of the ship on the galaxy map in its journey; that would be cool too