I vote yes. The Fuel Rats haved saved many commanders (myself included) and I for one will gladly fight alongside them if their outpost was under threat from hostile factions.
Should the Fuel Rats be in the Bubble 2.0 ?
- Thread starter Kerenn
- Start date
The key definition I am pointing to is usage number two in the Merriam Webster Dictionary of the English Language; "To express at length a complaint or negative opinion". It doesn't need to be profane to qualify for being a rant. I could also have tacked on that it was raving (to speak wildly, irrationally or incoherently), but I was actually holding back a bit there. More the fool me, perhaps.
And this is where I stand by the statement that you make incoherent claims. Because this is in the game. The Rats did not lobby against it, and it certainly did not get pulled. I don't know where your misinformation comes from regarding this, but you have clearly not kept up with the actual state of the game.
Again, I ask for something more concrete than a suggestion that people "Google it". Since you were fond of pulling out the straw man logical fallacy (invalidly, I might add), I will direct you to the burden of proof fallacy. It is not the community that needs to go find proof of your claims, it is you who must validate it with something more than a claim that it is so.
Now, as for lobbying for synthesis in some agenda to make rats able to refuel SRVs... What are you even talking about? SRVs have never been possible to refuel in any way other than through synthesis. You cannot transfer synthesis materials from one ship to another. The only thing REMOTELY resembling the matter you seem to be alluding to is a situation during the Distant World expedition, where some of the Rock Rats (Mostly formed from Fuel Rats taking on extra mineral surveying tasks during the trip out, later on expanded to be a term unto itself) with SRVs went around scanning for rocks to shoot so a commander without a SRV bay could scoop materials with their ship cargo scoop to get the needed FSD boosts. That was pretty much a one off occurrence; it's certainly not something the Fuel Rats Mischief is pandering as a service to the community.
Again, both of these things are possible. I don't understand where your original claims come from, or why you insist they are reality when they are provably not. You do have to go shoot rocks to refuel your SRV, and you technically can't do it while the SRV is docked in the ship (Other than the long period this was bugged and SRVs auto-refueled on docking), but I don't think that's the point you were trying to make.
Once more, I invite you to pull out some proof of your allegations. Do I come across as slightly miffed over the matter? Yes, because it is kind of a big deal. Your post makes claims that The Fuel Rats has curried favor from FDev - underhandedly at that - and that is a serious accusation to make. The rats whose names you are dragging into the dirt spend a lot of their time doing a very good job for nothing but the warm feeling it gets them in the cockles of their hearts, and the odd enthusiastic thank you from the people they save. And having this kind of... political smear campaign launched against them unopposed, I won't stand for.
Personally I want to know the names of the fuel rats that have lobbied against longer ranged ships or about making refueling more difficult. Pretty much everyone knows how much I want the Asp 2, Turner, Imperial Explorer, to be included in the game.
Oh and the "Fuel Rats educational initiative", sidewinders should start with a 1e fuel scoop so new players are forced to learn how to scoop their own fuel. Yeah, Fdev didn't like the idea. How about fuel scoops being a core component instead of an internal one, so people would have no excuse not to have one? Nope, not part of the vision. (nevermind that the Fer De Lance's original description said that it was built around a fuel scoop)
Also I voted "no", fuel rats live on their ships not play the background simulation. I liked that "organization" idea Chrystoph mentioned. Crafted missions tailed to a specific play style of chartered player organizations would be very welcome. More work for Fdev so I doubt it'd happen.
Oh and the "Fuel Rats educational initiative", sidewinders should start with a 1e fuel scoop so new players are forced to learn how to scoop their own fuel. Yeah, Fdev didn't like the idea. How about fuel scoops being a core component instead of an internal one, so people would have no excuse not to have one? Nope, not part of the vision. (nevermind that the Fer De Lance's original description said that it was built around a fuel scoop)
Also I voted "no", fuel rats live on their ships not play the background simulation. I liked that "organization" idea Chrystoph mentioned. Crafted missions tailed to a specific play style of chartered player organizations would be very welcome. More work for Fdev so I doubt it'd happen.
Would like to see Fuelrats minor faction out there. Worst thing that can happen is a wipe back to the current status, so nothing to loose in trying to establish some stations near Jaque.
I don't understand the fear that playing BGS would lead into hot water with other groups as every Cmdr is free to do missions for factions they like (or all factions if they like the credits) and on top - what a member of Fuelrats does in their spare time when not beeing on a rescue (and in that time/case not beeing a Fuelrat) is completely their decision, too. Noone can blame the Fuelrats as a group for actions of volunteers in their free time.
I don't understand the fear that playing BGS would lead into hot water with other groups as every Cmdr is free to do missions for factions they like (or all factions if they like the credits) and on top - what a member of Fuelrats does in their spare time when not beeing on a rescue (and in that time/case not beeing a Fuelrat) is completely their decision, too. Noone can blame the Fuelrats as a group for actions of volunteers in their free time.
Hello, let me just say I am a huge fan of the Fuel Rats and will always be grateful after you guys saved me a few months back!
..but *pedantic mode on*
They are Marathons, not damn Snickers
Guys, guys, guys (and girls, and transgender, and inbetween and questioning, and burgeoning and others...)
Let's not feed the trolls nor derail the discussion here, please.
Now now. This is a rather interesting discussion to me.
From what I gather, Jacozilla, you seem to think the Fuel Rats may have lost sight of themselves under the weight of their success and become some sort of self-replicating hive ? Spreading far and wide to influence and manipulate the odds to be forever in their favour ?
I can only answer that's it's a valid concern, but it needs not be. Over the course of our history, I have seen quite a lot of Rats show how utterly overwhelmed with the response they've gotten when all they did was, I don't know, play the game another way. I mean, you fly from point A to B to deliver goods (and sometimes from B to A), why not fly from point C to D to deliver Fuel ? And Enjoy the Vistas ? And maybe feel you're doing something useful and making someone's day while you're at it ? I don't get that kind of response from the NPC I work with when doing missions or trading. Not even a Pirate can say he gets such interaction.
But enough boasting, let's get back to Frontier. You may have seen people asking for things since the 1.5 beta. And those people may even have been Rats, whether in active duty (one does have to find something to do during those Witch Space Tunnels, why not read and post on these forums ?) or not. But to link the two items and generalize your conclusions is what I'd call a Hasty Step (please refer to my above points about Alec Turner being not only a Rat but also a Buckyballer and Elite Racer. Yet do you believe those two groups are lobbyist ?). Each and every Rat you may have read on these forums or in other places were NEVER speaking for the collective as a whole, and ALWAYS as themselves. I might even add that they were speaking as gamers first and Rats second, but that'd besome sort of fallacy. I mean, speaking from my own experience, once you've played Elite a certain way, you start to see it a certain way. I am a Rat. I am an Explorer. I do not have the grips some people have with -say- Fer-de-Lance, because I never see any. Interdictions getting troublesome ? That's not a problem to me. So when I read about people complaining or pushing FD to reduce the numbers of interdictions, I just nod and move along. Of course, this ties in to your point : after a while, everyone starts preaching to their own choir. We could also digress about the current society and FB's algorithm where if you follow a Republican, FB will show you more and more Republican news and less and less Democrats News ; leading to perception biases.
I think the root of the problem is that you feel the Rats may have become prey to such biases and changed their nature accordingly. In a way your change of hearts concerning us is a delight to read because it means you cared enough to be wounded by what you saw happening.
Fear not, random citizen, We love You.
The only other argument I can show you to re-assure you that we are not, in fact, a lobby group,that we don't have an agenda. We've already proven we can do alot with very little. Jump Range ? I ratted in a 16LY Vulture. We don't care about range. Optimised Fuel usage ? That's on FD and the engineers. Or it may have been the First Great Expedition lobbying in secret, who knows... I might be confusing the dates, but I do think we did our first Sag A* Rescue and Beagle Reach before 1.5 beta. So we already were everywhere in the galaxy.
You speak of the AI Refuellers. The only beef we've had with those was that they sported a skin designed by one of our own and FD was very discreet about asking to use it, but that was sorted in a polite and civil manner with an offer FD couldn't refuse (the details of which might have involved Snickers, but I am not at a liberty to discuss much more). We might have feared the AI would take our jobs, and maybe some Rat might have asked to take those out of the game, but I'm fairly confident that this was either jokes or misinformed fear of the unknown. The problem we tackle here is that FD has to keep a few bolts and screws hidden in their teasing, and our little minds can only fill the gaps. It's happened with No Man's Sky recently, but it certainly isn't a new phenomenon.
In conclusion, I urge all of you to not partake in a sterile debate and maybe try an open dialogue. What gets you up in the morning ? Wat's that thing that keeps you coming back to Elite ? What are you anticipating on most ? Share the love, spread the Fuel.
Kerenn Out (for the night).
Let's not feed the trolls nor derail the discussion here, please.
the Fuel Rats consistently lobby FD to prevent, restrict or make them change their initial designs whenever any feature would make players lives easier re: fuel, range, refueling, etc without the fuel rats. Basically, they lobby to prevent any change in game that threatens their existence even if it would provide self help opportunity for commanders vs having to rely on fuel rats.
I did not know we had such power. Quick, someone get me Zac on the line, I want Braben to come clean my cockpit !
But seriously, though. I spoke to Zac Antonaci on numerous occasions, many of them privates and some not so private (discord / skype PMs / Discussion group) and he told me a few times FD are VERY VERY VERY careful what they do around us because as much as they love the way we took their game and made it something else, they SIMPLY CANNOT show weakness and allow us to be favourites, otherwise the flood gates open to "Hey, why isn't my group getting X and Y ?" questions that would by then be completely legitimate.
Also, from a strict personal point of view, any self-help mechanism they will / would implement will be a godsend, since the Fuel Rats is one of those organizations bound to kill itself. Once we've educated every single commander, made sure everyone is paying attention at all times and monitoring their fuel levels with our level of professionalism, our purpose becomes moot and we are useless. Thankfully, reality doers not care for theory and there will always be bloody idiots to run out of fuel. We love you, bloody idiots
Google back to 1.5 and major updates after that. Fuel Rats have lobbied and in some cases gotten changed FD proposed features that would have put more control re: lack of fuel or refueling (or rescue AI) back in hands of solo commanders.
The only thing I remember coming close to this was Alec Turner, a very well known Rat, Elite Racer, and Buckyballer asking if SRV should have fuel or not. Because at one time, SRV did not have fuel and could run forever on solar batteries or something.
So on one hand - as a selfish lobby, this makes perfect and total sense. Any lobby group does that. But pretending the Fuel Rats is not a self interested lobby is naïve - so yea, I support their desire for a faction because they are just that - a player faction, not a benevolent society for all.
This last part hurt my feelings.
I like the way you think.
The Lobby Signal ! Quick, to the Lobby-Mobile !
Now now. This is a rather interesting discussion to me.
From what I gather, Jacozilla, you seem to think the Fuel Rats may have lost sight of themselves under the weight of their success and become some sort of self-replicating hive ? Spreading far and wide to influence and manipulate the odds to be forever in their favour ?
I can only answer that's it's a valid concern, but it needs not be. Over the course of our history, I have seen quite a lot of Rats show how utterly overwhelmed with the response they've gotten when all they did was, I don't know, play the game another way. I mean, you fly from point A to B to deliver goods (and sometimes from B to A), why not fly from point C to D to deliver Fuel ? And Enjoy the Vistas ? And maybe feel you're doing something useful and making someone's day while you're at it ? I don't get that kind of response from the NPC I work with when doing missions or trading. Not even a Pirate can say he gets such interaction.
But enough boasting, let's get back to Frontier. You may have seen people asking for things since the 1.5 beta. And those people may even have been Rats, whether in active duty (one does have to find something to do during those Witch Space Tunnels, why not read and post on these forums ?) or not. But to link the two items and generalize your conclusions is what I'd call a Hasty Step (please refer to my above points about Alec Turner being not only a Rat but also a Buckyballer and Elite Racer. Yet do you believe those two groups are lobbyist ?). Each and every Rat you may have read on these forums or in other places were NEVER speaking for the collective as a whole, and ALWAYS as themselves. I might even add that they were speaking as gamers first and Rats second, but that'd besome sort of fallacy. I mean, speaking from my own experience, once you've played Elite a certain way, you start to see it a certain way. I am a Rat. I am an Explorer. I do not have the grips some people have with -say- Fer-de-Lance, because I never see any. Interdictions getting troublesome ? That's not a problem to me. So when I read about people complaining or pushing FD to reduce the numbers of interdictions, I just nod and move along. Of course, this ties in to your point : after a while, everyone starts preaching to their own choir. We could also digress about the current society and FB's algorithm where if you follow a Republican, FB will show you more and more Republican news and less and less Democrats News ; leading to perception biases.
I think the root of the problem is that you feel the Rats may have become prey to such biases and changed their nature accordingly. In a way your change of hearts concerning us is a delight to read because it means you cared enough to be wounded by what you saw happening.
Fear not, random citizen, We love You.
The only other argument I can show you to re-assure you that we are not, in fact, a lobby group,that we don't have an agenda. We've already proven we can do alot with very little. Jump Range ? I ratted in a 16LY Vulture. We don't care about range. Optimised Fuel usage ? That's on FD and the engineers. Or it may have been the First Great Expedition lobbying in secret, who knows... I might be confusing the dates, but I do think we did our first Sag A* Rescue and Beagle Reach before 1.5 beta. So we already were everywhere in the galaxy.
You speak of the AI Refuellers. The only beef we've had with those was that they sported a skin designed by one of our own and FD was very discreet about asking to use it, but that was sorted in a polite and civil manner with an offer FD couldn't refuse (the details of which might have involved Snickers, but I am not at a liberty to discuss much more). We might have feared the AI would take our jobs, and maybe some Rat might have asked to take those out of the game, but I'm fairly confident that this was either jokes or misinformed fear of the unknown. The problem we tackle here is that FD has to keep a few bolts and screws hidden in their teasing, and our little minds can only fill the gaps. It's happened with No Man's Sky recently, but it certainly isn't a new phenomenon.
In conclusion, I urge all of you to not partake in a sterile debate and maybe try an open dialogue. What gets you up in the morning ? Wat's that thing that keeps you coming back to Elite ? What are you anticipating on most ? Share the love, spread the Fuel.
Kerenn Out (for the night).
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Actually, given that the founders of the rock rats was Anuranium, me, Ravenov and Domaq - yes, I did know, and I was in the channel when we had the discussion on what to call ourselves. Ravenov was the one who came up with the name. I suggested Heavy Metal Rockers. His did have more squeakiness to it.
-Absolver, apparently part of Kerenn's research.
Actually, given that the founders of the rock rats was Anuranium, me, Ravenov and Domaq - yes, I did know, and I was in the channel when we had the discussion on what to call ourselves. Ravenov was the one who came up with the name. I suggested Heavy Metal Rockers. His did have more squeakiness to it.
-Absolver, apparently part of Kerenn's research.
Thanks for the precision, will update.
I voted no. As much as we appreciate the sentiment of people wanting to fight for us, that's not what we do. We're not here to fight. we're here to refuel. There are plenty of limpets at Jacques and I'm sure other factions won't mind us using their stations' limpets should the need arise.
.
I'll add my voice to this silliness about lobbying or whatever. The Rock Rats name was an homage to the Fuel Rats of which some of us are both. Nothing more.
.
And just to clarify, it was DWE Waypoint 3 where we came up with the name I believe
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Thanks Kerenn for your work on clarification. Though I hope concerned people both read and take the time to understand it. It was quite clear, no negative suggestions there, yet this is an issue by itself in any web forum.
Personally, I would find it a nice touch to have a Fuel Rats faction up there. Would fit our motto that we don't care how far away someone in need is.
BUT I wouldn't approach it from a Powerplay point of view. Not only because the Rats had been founded explicitely avoiding the guild and guild-politics structures we know from other MMORPGs. "Anarchical collective", as far as it can go, is the core idea (ask our founder, Surly).
We are, and have to be, strictly neutral. No fighting against other factions, no aligning with or against us by others, nothing like that. So I am with domaq there. We are the Rats, we would have a second Cave there, and that's fine! Rats don't fight wars -- they are just hell of a pain to get rid off once they silently established themselves somewhere ...
So a faction there, yes please. As a struggling or challenging power, not at all. Since I am not sure whether you can have one without the other, I abstain.
As for irony, I think vacuum gaining on them makes even them quite ... rhino-hided in that respect.
Yet of course, queakyness beats it all. Sorry ...
Personally, I would find it a nice touch to have a Fuel Rats faction up there. Would fit our motto that we don't care how far away someone in need is.
BUT I wouldn't approach it from a Powerplay point of view. Not only because the Rats had been founded explicitely avoiding the guild and guild-politics structures we know from other MMORPGs. "Anarchical collective", as far as it can go, is the core idea (ask our founder, Surly).
We are, and have to be, strictly neutral. No fighting against other factions, no aligning with or against us by others, nothing like that. So I am with domaq there. We are the Rats, we would have a second Cave there, and that's fine! Rats don't fight wars -- they are just hell of a pain to get rid off once they silently established themselves somewhere ...
So a faction there, yes please. As a struggling or challenging power, not at all. Since I am not sure whether you can have one without the other, I abstain.
Heh. We (I at least) refuel anyone and anything Dispatch sends me to, and may even grab the opportunity of side-refulleing on my way if it arises
As for irony, I think vacuum gaining on them makes even them quite ... rhino-hided in that respect.Great name! The sound of it! I like it
Yet of course, queakyness beats it all. Sorry ...
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What if Jaques made a Galnet news article stating that in light of all the work the Fuel Rats have done for him, first fueling him up then participating hugely in going out to rescue him, that he's giving them a home in the new bubble in the form of his own station, to act as a base of operations for providing their service in the new bubble?
And coinciding with that article, the Fuel Rats emblem gets put on the sides & entrance of Jaques Orbital!
That way would preclude this whole thing about the BGS and minor factions and conflict and blah-de-blah.
And coinciding with that article, the Fuel Rats emblem gets put on the sides & entrance of Jaques Orbital!
That way would preclude this whole thing about the BGS and minor factions and conflict and blah-de-blah.
Thanks for your input. Will update accordingly.I voted no. As much as we appreciate the sentiment of people wanting to fight for us, that's not what we do. We're not here to fight. we're here to refuel. There are plenty of limpets at Jacques and I'm sure other factions won't mind us using their stations' limpets should the need arise.
I'll add my voice to this silliness about lobbying or whatever. The Rock Rats name was an homage to the Fuel Rats of which some of us are both. Nothing more.
And just to clarify, it was DWE Waypoint 3 where we came up with the name I believe
But what about favoritism ?
Okay peeps, after close to a full week of discussion I've learned a lot and kinda rethought my position.
On one hand, I just want our name to be in the stars, because the more people know about us the more people we can help. Maybe we always were a self-pushing lobby-group with that agenda on the back-burner. I'm not terribly devastated or agitated by it anyway, because people from all over the world and in all player groups have started to emulate us pretty quickly and I know for a fact a few of the most well-known and active groups have special, intra-group sections dedicated to helping their own. And that's fine. Kinda like the First Great Expedition, we are the First Great Refueller. What we showed, what we did, others will learn and use. We are the Pioneers of the Space-Rescue, in a game filled with cold heartless Void.
On the other hand, with so many groups taking part in the BGS and ahving a real interest and focus on it, Us "asking" for a place among them is kind of weird. Fuel Rats never ask, they always give (Fuel, most of the time). And because a few of you mentioned alternative ways for our name in the bubble 2.0, I am changing my stance and hoping that The Fuel Rats Mischief stays in Fuelum.
Soon I will start a new selfish lobby campaign to have one station either in the bubble 2.0 itself or in the many station being built (or both) to be called the Rats's Nest or Badger's Rest. That way we'll have our name spread far and wide without having to step on any toes. Except for those favoritism accusation we may face. But to those I pledge guilty.
We're the Galaxy's favourites. And we don't care.
We have Fuel,
You don't.
Any (additionnal) Question (or Thought) ?
You've earned it. Anybody who doesn't agree with that ought to hang out in the fuel rat IRC sometime. Once in a while I like to visit and lurk just to watch the magic happen! It really is quite incredible.
That'd probably be complained about as favoritism.
I think minor faction and conflict is something that's wrong for the fuel rats too.
That lobbyist conspiracy theory guy is right though, there's no way for solo players to get a rescue while away from an allied system. Fuel Rats don't do solo mode and they're not limited to players they like (allied) so this is an advantage that only open players can enjoy.
So to even the playing field I propose to add a new beacon mode of "Distress" (so choice becomes off/wing/distress). This then results in a check to see if the RNG decides to send an "Fuel Rat" NPC within 5d6 minutes.
FDev could go further and add SAR contracts, where players are more likely to find distress beacon USS and can get "distress beacon found" emergent missions, which could send them to a player needing fuel (or just an NPC who needs fuel). Would make Search and Rescue a legitimate game mode. Bonus if they add some way to repair ships.
But ... why? Sorry, I fail to see any reason or such a change.
If you run out of fuel, just give the rats a call. We have a fine success rate, so no need of NPC helpers.
And before someone says: Exactly!!1! We have to call you, that is favoritism ...
No someone in fact hasn't to call us. Call your friends in your player group, call your in-game friends, your wing members, and let them refuel you. Hell, there could even be a second Fuel Rescue group. You know, The rats do not hold any monopoly. Even if we seem to have by sheer excellency
And as for Solo/Open: True, that is an issue; yet you only have to switch to open during the actual rescue itself, so that is not too much to ask, at least in my view. It is extremely unlikely you will encounter other players than the Rat during a rescue operation. Than you can safely switch back to Solo. Of course SAR vessels could be added only to Solo, but that could be messy from a developer's viewpoint.
If you introcude fuel-delivering NPCs in abundance, the Fuel Rats might very soon be quite dead. There is nothing as frustrating as jumping 200 light years for just getting am message from your client, "Oh sod off, the RNG god rescued me already". Most likely, clients would just disappear without a word. No. BAD idea.
No need to take this stunning and energizing part of REAL player-interaction out of the game only since someone feels it would be "favoritism" (which, as stated above, it isn't). Don't make everything automated, excessively easy, cheap, that would be boring.
Oh and by the way, in any forum, everywhere, whatever you do, there will be people crying out loud that it is bad, bad, bad.
Could we get back on topic now...?
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IMHO, Our main purpose is to rescue pilots in need. The idea of having an advanced base of operations in Colonia Space would be a big help, but I don't see the need for that presence to have it's own BGS minor faction. (No matter how flattering that would be.)
Getting involved local politics isn't something I as a Fuel Rat would be interested in. Typically Fire Departments don't run their own town, the town typically runs them. It would just be something that would take away from our ability to help someone in need.
I have been toying with the idea of creating a second account so that I can station a ship at Jaques Station. That way I could jump into it if a call came in from that sector of space but still be able to respond to calls in the Bubble.
Getting involved local politics isn't something I as a Fuel Rat would be interested in. Typically Fire Departments don't run their own town, the town typically runs them. It would just be something that would take away from our ability to help someone in need.
I have been toying with the idea of creating a second account so that I can station a ship at Jaques Station. That way I could jump into it if a call came in from that sector of space but still be able to respond to calls in the Bubble.
I would so hire one of those NPC's if that was possible. And just have one of them fly my ship out there. Then jump into the NPC when needed to make a rescue.Haven't we all ?