Should there be an 'Open' Player Vs Environment Option on the Login Screen

Should there be an 'Open' Player Vs Environment Option on the Start Screnn

  • Yes

    Votes: 638 55.4%
  • No

    Votes: 514 44.6%

  • Total voters
    1,152
  • Poll closed .
The ability to play in an Open "group" with different rules *was* included in the sales pitch for the game:

.... as were more meaningful punishments for PKing that have not been implemented.
Yep. Among other things, back then devs said they would ban players from Open if they engaged in too much griefing.

It would be interesting. Keep mindlessly killing defenseless ships for no in-game gain and you could find yourself only able to log into Solo. I wonder how much complaining and bickering it would cause in the forums...




What really unnerves me about your quoted text is the way it feels implied, by Frontier, that PvP is griefing. The way that the majority of this forum feels that any and all unwanted player contact is "griefing" is really sad. There is a huge difference between "unwanted player contact" and "griefing" in this game.
Not everyone sees that difference. Heck, I don't truly see it; while I'm perfectly capable of reading a game policy about griefing and, based on it, refrain from calling certain behaviors "griefing", for me "unwanted player contact" — and particularly when the aggressor is made aware that his target isn't enjoying the "player contact" but refuses to back down — is basically the same as griefing.




I would rather the devs put their efforts into improving the crime and consequences system across all modes and giving Private Groups better visibility and admin options.
If the admin tools are made better enough that managing a PvE group becomes effortless, why not create one such group as an official mode?

Open, after all, is nothing more, nothing less, than a default group everyone is automatically a member of.




With strict, fair, transparent rules in Open, there's no reason why everybody couldn't play there and be happy.
Nope. I, for one, will never engage another player without we both explicitly agreeing to fight. Any rule that would allow another player to fire at me without first securing my consent would be unacceptable. The version of Open you proposed is a mode I would never play in.




Hrm

A thought, instead of more modes and whatnot splitting the players up even more, maybe take a page from some of the old mud's.

- Remove 'cmdr' from scan name by default.
- Remove hollow square's, so there's no radar difference by default.
- Upon interaction, be that interdicting a person, or attacking hem or whatnot, only then reveal attackers nature, them being a player do not reveal defender unless they fire on attacker, maybe adding a feature separate from friend list where you can acknowledge who you are, to a person, which would make you show up as a hollow square, and they 'know' you, even if you are not on friend list.

Doing so might make pirates a bit frustrated, but there's no reason not to pirate npc's as it is currently, you can earn a lot of money doing that with the new way npc's spawn.
But otherwise it would make Elite a big universe where you don't know who you meet.
Maybe allow it so that people you are in a group with show up as hollow squares, groups basically having acknowledged each other?

Thoughts? idea's to make it work better?
For me that would never work. While I'm trigger happy with NPCs, I will never attack a player without first somehow securing his consent to fight. If I can't differentiate players from NPCs, then I would be unable to initiate combat anywhere.

And that doesn't even get into my dislike of being attacked by other players without first giving my consent to the fight.




Regardless of whether they are 'cowardly bully types' there is no question that they are a liability to the game - they drive off customers. Accordingly, nothing FD does should be done with the view to facilitating such behaviour. That simply doesn't make business sense. If they are upset, and go away, good. Higher sales, and more investment in a game that the rest of us can enjoy. And hopefully a few of those driven away will learn that they have to take the consequences of their own actions...
It's why the Ultima Online devs changed their internal definition of Griefers to "someone who, through his social actions, costs you more money than he gives you." And then used that definition to convince the suits to back an all out war against griefing (which, ultimately, ended with Trammel being added).




Has anyone considered that griefing is actually possible in an Open PvE mode? Someone could follow you around and annoy you, block your pad, deliberately steal your kills in a RES or stop you from mining. You can bet people would find any avenue to be annoying in open PvE...
Just like griefing, even if limited, is possible in any PvE game or game mode. Doesn't make the existence of PvE games or modes any less worthwhile.

And, in any case, removing PvP also removes the most direct venues for griefing, making it far less effective when it happens, and less satisfying to even attempt for the griefers as the damage they can cause is lessened. Griefing in PvE is like someone continuously hitting you with a teaspoon, while in large-death-penalties-PvP griefing it's instead a sledgehammer.




The official reason for the solo mode to exists was to allow players with low bandwidth to play the game.
Nope. The official reason for the Solo mode is because Frontier acknowledges that some players don't want to meet anyone else, friend or foe, and fully supports that choice. The low bandwidth is just a nice side-effect.

And you believe FD would be fine to do this all day long? Or are you suggesting this 'Open' Player Vs Environment' to bring some new mechanisms like ship self-destruct if you open fire at another player, like in Eve?
New mechanisms, obviously. It's easier and cheaper for Frontier to do it this way, instead of putting an employee to work moderating the group, and it would be more effective to boot because doing it at a mechanical level can prevent the attacks from happening in the first place, while moderation can only kick unruly players from the group after the damage is already done.

Also yep, I know, some players like/demand to play "their" game their own way. It's a notion I am not used to actually.
Not sure you know, but "play your way" is used a lot in this game's marketing effort. Can't fault customers from demanding what they have been promised.
 
Open is not the PvPers mode, it's the "everything can happen" mode.

I've seen messages saying that de facto it's already only PvP, if that was true (but it's really not my experience since beta in open) then it would have to be fixed before anything else IMO.
You can do anything you like in Open including PvP. Hence, it's a PvP mode. I can't say it simpler than that.
 
Open is not the PvPers mode, it's the "everything can happen" mode.

I've seen messages saying that de facto it's already only PvP, if that was true (but it's really not my experience since beta in open) then it would have to be fixed before anything else IMO.
Look at other MMOs, and how they label servers as PvE and PvP. The PvE servers are the ones where non-consensual PvP is not possible. Conversely the PvP ones are when non-consensual PvP is possible, despite PvE not only existing there, but often being the main activity.

Thus, following the same pattern, Open in ED is a PvP mode. It's not just about PvP, of course, but since unwanted PvP is at all possible, it's still very much a PvP mode.
 
I wish there could be some kind of bandwidth diagnostic at the start of a game to switch the player to solo only in case of low bandwidth...
Now these are the comments that I really don't understand at all. How would that benefit you? My fiber connection is as broad as broadband gets, so I couldn't play solo. That wouldn't benefit you at all, because I'd just have to uninstall. It would cost me several hundred dollars, and you still wouldn't get me in open. I don't even play mobius because it is vulnerable to invasion. Even once is too many times.
 
You can do anything you like in Open including PvP. Hence, it's a PvP mode. I can't say it simpler than that.

But it's not PvP only. Not yet.

Still there are some people already saying that it is only PvP in this topic.

And if FD explicitly add a "open PvE" mode, then it will truly become, by symmetry, "open PvP" as in "only PvP" in the mind of most players.

That's why I ask for 3 explicit modes if we got an "open PvE" mode: PvE, PvP, Mixed
 
Has anyone considered that griefing is actually possible in an Open PvE mode? Someone could follow you around and annoy you, block your pad, deliberately steal your kills in a RES or stop you from mining. You can bet people would find any avenue to be annoying in open PvE...
You open players are a truly inventive lot. Always thinking of ways to ruin someone else's game. Your post should be exhibit A as to why this game desperately needs a PVE mode.
 
I actually disagree, as an open player since beta, I can say that unprovoked PVP does hapeen, and it happens often enough...

Been playing for 6months and PVP has never really happened to me, except once which was fine cuz I was wanted! I like it the way it is!
 
You're correct that FD need to address bug fixes and content, I doubt many people would disagree with you there.

However, part of the content that FD seem to want is player interaction, and since Sandro has posted on the forums looking for comments on suggestions for making Open a more 'player friendly' environment by dealing more harshly with some types of PKing that might lead one to perceive that they are seeing this as an issue.

An Open PvE mode could be a solution to that issue, they'll only know if they decide to implement one, something they have shown no desire to do.

To say that it just something to ease the insecurities of a small minority however, judging by the success (or popularity) of the Mobius group, and the fairly common presence on the forums of threads suggesting an Open PvE mode could be seen as a fairly subjective point of view. :)

FD seem to asking for ways to change things in open to make it more player friendly or make it so random pew pew pew has more consequences..which leads me to believe that they do not want to have two "open" modes...

As for that last bit..it's my opinion as a pve player that plays in mobius and solo..I rarely play in open anymore not because of any bad experience but because I often go afk while playing so dont feel open is a good fit for me but I digress..


.....the point I am trying to make is even though an open pve mode might be "cool" I don't see it as a priority at all and I am a pve player which this mode should be targeting and I feel that many pve players like myself feel the same.

I already play in "open pve" mode via mobius and since it isn't broken I don't see the rush the try and "fix it". There are however plenty of other broken things they should be fixing.

If ever mobius closes/crashes/burns etc etc by all means lets fix it and see if FD will do this but till then...much ado about nothing.
 
Has anyone considered that griefing is actually possible in an Open PvE mode? Someone could follow you around and annoy you, block your pad, deliberately steal your kills in a RES or stop you from mining. You can bet people would find any avenue to be annoying in open PvE...

So they get reported and banned from openPvE. where is the problem again?
 
But it's not PvP only. Not yet.

Still there are some people already saying that it is only PvP in this topic.

And if FD explicitly add a "open PvE" mode, then it will truly become, by symmetry, "open PvP" as in "only PvP" in the mind of most players.

That's why I ask for 3 explicit modes if we got an "open PvE" mode: PvE, PvP, Mixed

Not sure that is entirely logical.

Open PvP - PvP allowed and consented to.
Open PvE - PvP not allowed.

The game is a PvE game, PvE occurs in every mode, so your PvP and mixed mode are by the nature of the game the same thing. They are in fact what the current Open mode is, the only difference being the explicit consent by all parties to any and all PvP.
 
Solo existed as a part of the game design (as well as Private Groups and Open, of course) before Offline was introduced to the Kickstarter.

Note the following extract from the FAQ published a day after the start of the Kickstarter and also note the fact that Offline mode is added as an "Update":
Thanks for the clarification, Robert. Thought offline came before Solo. I still think an Open PVE would be a good option for those not looking for PVP.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Thanks for the clarification, Robert. Thought offline came before Solo. I still think an Open PVE would be a good option for those not looking for PVP.

No problem - it's a common misconception that "Solo only exists because Offline was cancelled" when, in fact, all three game modes that we have in-game were announced at the very outset of the Kickstarter. :)
 
For me that would never work. While I'm trigger happy with NPCs, I will never attack a player without first somehow securing his consent to fight. If I can't differentiate players from NPCs, then I would be unable to initiate combat anywhere.

And that doesn't even get into my dislike of being attacked by other players without first giving my consent to the fight.
Hrm, I must admit that sounds odd, as long as they are interacting, you know a pirate that interdicts you and threatens you for cargo and whatnot, any sort of interaction, then to me that is the point of being in open.
And at least in my book by being in open you consent to interacting with others, that is implied by joining open, you want to meet and interact with others. If or if not they will attack you well that is another thing, and the main problem at least in my book is griefing where the power difference is so enormous that the victim has no chance, not actual fights.

I mean if it needed specific consent you could basically go into a territory belonging to a faction that dislikes you, and go "No you cannot attack me, I don't want to be attacked" ? seems odd.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Open PVE mode would kill piracy
No, no it wouldn't, piracy against npc's is very lucrative now, if people only want to pirate other players, then that's a problem with their personality not with the piracy profession.
Of course, yes, an npc isn't going to respond and automatically just 'give' you abandoned cargo, no, but frankly, that's players abusing a loophole rather then it having anything to do with piracy, 'real' piracy would need to disable the ship, steal the cargo, head off. Not this whole thing with abandoning and whatnot, which is frankly silly, even if you use the black market you are going to get a good profit as a pirate since you aren't paying for what you stole.
 
Last edited:
FD seem to asking for ways to change things in open to make it more player friendly or make it so random pew pew pew has more consequences..which leads me to believe that they do not want to have two "open" modes...

As for that last bit..it's my opinion as a pve player that plays in mobius and solo..I rarely play in open anymore not because of any bad experience but because I often go afk while playing so dont feel open is a good fit for me but I digress..


.....the point I am trying to make is even though an open pve mode might be "cool" I don't see it as a priority at all and I am a pve player which this mode should be targeting and I feel that many pve players like myself feel the same.

I already play in "open pve" mode via mobius and since it isn't broken I don't see the rush the try and "fix it". There are however plenty of other broken things they should be fixing.

If ever mobius closes/crashes/burns etc etc by all means lets fix it and see if FD will do this but till then...much ado about nothing.

Yep, don't get me wrong, I agree wholeheartedly that there's a lot that could do with 'fixing' in the game.

I guess though, that for FD trying to 'fix' whatever they see as wrong with Open is also going to take up not insignificant resources, and from what they have proposed so far there's no guarantee that it will work, and no guarantee that it won't have wider implications to rest of the game. Most of the suggestions seem to revolve around harsher penalties for murder when murder is a very sanctioned action in the game...

Why not instead simply create a mode where player by player murder is not possible and be done with it? Potentially not a waste of time at all, and they can then spend the time trying to implement more realistic security levels and other content that will simply enrich the gameplay across all modes without having to spend time 'protecting' players from unwanted player interaction.
 
Open is not the PvPers mode, it's the "everything can happen" mode.

I've seen messages saying that de facto it's already only PvP, if that was true (but it's really not my experience since beta in open) then it would have to be fixed before anything else IMO.

I can think of _no_ way that could fix what open has become. Thanks to human nature, immature nature to be specific. the ones that have that "domination" itch or whatever you call those trolls are ocvertaking every game and forum online. Simply because they can. Look at what Itchy Nipples did back then. that was pure Troll for the fun of it. And there are waaaay to much like him in open (and here in the forums) to _ever_ hope to get that remedied. Open is a lost cause in that department. Forget it and build something new for the more mature player base, and ignore the childish behavior.

Thats the only thing that will get you anywhere. Open will never be back to "few and meaningful PvP combat".
 
I'm guessing that the definition of piracy being used here does not include pirating NPCs?

No because I can't imagine anything more boring. I'd be doing piracy for fun, for the interaction and before anyone objects to being my content realise that this isn't a one way thing; the pirate that you evaded, or the pirate who robbed you or the pirate who sang "stand and deliver! Your money or your life!" Is your content too.

Also, I would not expect that every player who ever trades would move out of Open.


I do. If there were an open PVE mode that offers up all the social and community aspects with none of the inherent dangers you won't see any traders or miners in open.
 
Last edited:

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
No because I can't imagine anything more boring.

Your choice, of course.

I'd be doing piracy for fun, for the interaction and before anyone objects to being my content realise that this isn't a one way thing; the pirate that you evaded, or the pirate who robbed you or the pirate who sang "stand and deliver! Your money or your life!" Is your content too.

.... whether one wishes it, or not as the case may be.

Choosing a play-style that relies on other players to provide part of the content is naturally vulnerable to no other players wanting to participate in that particular type of interaction.

I do. If there were an open PVE mode that offers up all the social and community aspects with none of the inherent dangers you won't see any traders or miners in open.

I'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
 
Back
Top Bottom