Should there be better options than starting in a Sidewinder?

[GunnerBill]

The popularity of certain methods of earning credits quickly seem to me like some (many?) new players are frustrated with what they perceive as a slow/low start to the game.

Personally I liked starting in a Sidey but what if there was another choice, what if we could choose a higher value starting point?

What would that be and how could you balance that against those choosing to start in a classic Sidey?

Your Startup Options Are:

1. Free Agent (Classic): Sidey +2000 Cr & access to Felicity Farseer. No gameplay restriction. Chance to choose any of options below within 12 hrs of gameplay whence all cred's and assets so far earned are wiped and replaced as per the chosen option (excluding ships of lower value than chosen option ship).

2. Combat: Vulture + 1000,000 iEagle + 100,000 Credits class 3 OC'd PP

3. Exploration: DBX + 1000,000 Diamondback Scout + 100,000 Credits Class 3 Increased Range FSD

4. Trader: Keelback + 1000,000 Hauler + 100,000 Credits Class 3 LP Enhanced Shield Generator

These alternative options would need properly explaining in game. I would suggest a cutscene with verbal and graphical information as well as interactive FAQ's

All these ships could be D & B Spec'd with some mildly engineered modules but no access to engineers.

What's the balance here?

In each of cases Vulture, DBX and Keelback the player is indentured to a PP Power for a fixed period of in game time and only released when they have done the time and associated missions:


i) Indentured players are require to complete a certain number of missions that are not paid (but do receive faction rep) before being eligible for release.
ii) Indentured players are also required to achieve a certain rank within that organisation before prior to release.

During this time they are allowed to complete their own side missions during but failure to complete the indenture objectives and/or the conduct of conflicting missions is punished via C&P.
Consideration could also be given to locking out purchasing of higher value ships until the indenture period has been completed.

• Vulture missions would be combat related.
• DBX missions - exploration.
• Keelback - trade.

NOT EASY MODE: I don't expect any of the alternative options would be "easy mode", not at all! Indenture missions would offer a steep learning curve in the chosen play style and must be completed.

All the parameters: times, credits, ships, modules, access etc could vary, these are just examples.

NOTE: Please guys don't turn this into a Cash Exploit discussion and /or a "no consequences" / "easy mode" type thread . I mean this with the best intentions it's simply an idea I had that might give newer players more incentive to play and enjoy all the game.

EDIT/Additional:

+1 To Iskariot:

Starter Ship Types
Perhaps too good for raw recruits?
Start with lower models Eagles, Haulers, Asp Scout etc. Which could be upgraded with increased rep & rank. Certain ships supplied specifically for missions i.e. Low CZ = Eagles, Assassination Mission would give Vulture
Ships could also be viewed as equipment owned by the power and never actually owned by the player until maybe a buyout option at the end of service

Ship destruction

1. If destroyed conducting indentured missions then no rebuy but loss of reputation*.
2. If destroyed on your own time i.e. any time not actually in a mission instance, a choice of rebuy or larger loss of rep.

* Essentially increases the amount of time you are required to remain in service.

 

[Poseidal]

I think a few randomised (from a select pool) would be better. Maybe options to start in Imperial or Alliance space somewhere as well.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I think that would leave new players stuck at the first screen in analysis paralysis, drive them YouTube, where their path to the dark side would begin before they'd ever retracted their landing gear.

 

[GunnerBill]

I think that would leave new players stuck at the first screen in analysis paralysis, drive them YouTube, where their path to the dark side would begin before they'd ever retracted their landing gear.

+1

Yes, I left out the bit about there needing to be a good explanation...

but that's also why there's an option to choose later.

 

[Iskariot]

The popularity of certain methods of earning credits quickly seem to me like some (many?) new players are frustrated with what they perceive as a slow/low start to the game.

Personally I liked starting in a Sidey but what if there was another choice, what if we could choose a higher value starting point?

What would that be and how could you balance that against those choosing to start in a classic Sidey?

Your Startup Options Are:

1. Free Agent (Classic): Sidey +2000 Cr & access to Felicity Farseer. No gameplay restriction. Chance to choose any of options below within 12 hrs of gameplay whence all cred's and assets so far earned are wiped and replaced as per the chosen option (excluding ships of lower value than chosen option ship).

2. Combat: Vulture + 1000,000 Credits class 3 OC'd PP

3. Exploration: DBX + 1000,000 Credit Class 3 Increased Range FSD

4. Trader: Keelback + 1000,000 Credits Class 3 LP Enhanced Shield Generator



All these ships could be D & B Spec'd with some mildly engineered modules but no access to engineers.

What's the balance here?

In each of cases Vulture, DBX and Keelback the player is indentured to a PP Power for a fixed period of in game time and only released when they have done the time and associated missions:


i) Indentured players are require to complete a certain number of missions that are not paid (but do receive faction rep) before being eligible for release.
ii) Indentured players are also required to achieve a certain rank within that organisation before prior to release.

During this time they are allowed to complete their own side missions during but failure to complete the indenture objectives and/or the conduct of conflicting missions is punished via C&P.
Consideration could also be given to locking out purchasing of higher value ships until the indenture period has been completed.

• Vulture missions would be combat related.
• DBX missions - exploration.
• Keelback - trade.

NOT EASY MODE: I don't expect any of the alternative options would be "easy mode", not at all! Indenture missions would offer a steep learning curve in the chosen play style and must be completed.

All the parameters: times, credits, ships, modules, access etc could vary, these are just examples.

NOTE: Please guys don't turn this into a Cash Exploit discussion and /or a "no consequences" / "easy mode" type thread . I mean this with the best intentions it's simply an idea I had that might give newer players more incentive to play and enjoy all the game.

My first reaction to your proposal was:
I think the ships you mention are to good to be starter ships. Players need to be eased into the game mechanics with relatively simpler ships.
I think the Sidey, and Eagle and perhaps the Imperial Eagle could be starter ships.
I would even be against adding the Viper III to that list and certainly not the Vulture, DBX or Keelback.

But I very much like the indenture gameplay you added. I think that is something I would love to see added anyhow, even when starting in a Sidewinder.

How would ship destruction work? Would your Vulture respawn for free?
I would replace the Keelback with the Hauler in any case.

 

[GunnerBill]

My first reaction to your proposal was:
I think the ships you mention are to good to be starter ships. Players need to be eased into the game mechanics with relatively simpler ships.
I think the Sidey, and Eagle and perhaps the Imperial Eagle could be starter ships.
I would even be against adding the Viper III to that list and certainly not the Vulture, DBX or Keelback.

But I very much like the indenture gameplay you added. I think that is something I would love to see added anyhow, even when starting in a Sidewinder.

How would ship destruction work? Would your Vulture respawn for free?
I would replace the Keelback with the Hauler in any case.

Good points. +1

Seems reasonable on ship type, perhaps cheaper ship upgrade options for ranking up during service? Essentially I see the ship being supplied as essential equipment for service. Could also be simply borrowed and not owned??? Perhaps supplied per mission so Eagles for low intensity CZ, Vulture for Assassination etc.

Ship destruction...

1. If destroyed conducting indentured missions then no rebuy but loss of reputation*.
2. If destroyed on your own time i.e. any time not actually in a mission instance, a choice of rebuy or larger loss of rep.

* Essentially increases the amount of time you are required to remain in service.

 

[Cervantes01]

I'd like to see a slightly better starting position but only as part of a dedicated Iron Man mode. So in other words if you get killed you will lose it all and in order to get back into the game again something like a c-rated sidewinder and 100,000 cash would be good.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I think you should start in the SRV, marooned on a planet, and have to gather materials to repair your ship, then finally take off, only to realise you need to go back because you need more fuel to fly to the next planet, then spend hours trying to get enough fuel to make a hyperspace jump, only to have to do it again in the next system, and the next...

It should be called the "No Man's Elite" start.



Joking aside, starting in the SRV would be a kinda cool option...

 

[Catroaster]

IIRC alternative starts were available in Elite 2, with balanced options like starting in Lave with a Cobra Mk3 but also being wanted from the beginning. You'd have to make a load of money just to pay your bounties off.

Edit: Yes: https://www.sharoma.com/frontierverse/starting.htm
Funny how I can remember that but not what I did yesterday

 

[Ashnak]

Not really.

Starting off as an indentured servant with a ~6 MCr. debt would mean that you will be stuck for an awfully long time in doing missions for your patron. Especially since I think the rebuys should add to your debt (after all, we're not running a charity here). And starting off in one of the higher end ships will mean you'll get a lot of rebuys.

Plus, new gamers should learn from the game how to select a ship's loadout, not read it on youtube/reddit/forum. What I could live with would be, if supported by a good in-game preparation (e.g. three sets of training missions, one for each ship) a starter choice of

- Sidewinder + 22 kCr
- Eagle + 12 kCr
- Hauler + 2 kCr

But even so: those people who could reasonably choose between those three wouldn't need to, as one or two missions would enable them to switch in any case. Those people who struggle with the missions at the start would struggle even more if they had to choose between these three ships. Yes, I wrote "training missions" above - but on second though, the people most in need of those training missions are exactly the same people who won't take them because they're too eager to get into the game.

And finally, what's so bad about the Sidewinder? 3.0 stats are even better .

 

[GunnerBill]

IIRC alternative starts were available in Elite 2, with balanced options like starting in Lave with a Cobra Mk3 but also being wanted from the beginning. You'd have to make a load of money just to pay your bounties off.

Edit: Yes: https://www.sharoma.com/frontierverse/starting.htm
Funny how I can remember that but not what I did yesterday

Didn't know that. I missed all the games in between Original and ED.

Not really.

Starting off as an indentured servant with a ~6 MCr. debt would mean that you will be stuck for an awfully long time in doing missions for your patron. Especially since I think the rebuys should add to your debt (after all, we're not running a charity here). And starting off in one of the higher end ships will mean you'll get a lot of rebuys.

Plus, new gamers should learn from the game how to select a ship's loadout, not read it on youtube/reddit/forum. What I could live with would be, if supported by a good in-game preparation (e.g. three sets of training missions, one for each ship) a starter choice of

- Sidewinder + 22 kCr
- Eagle + 12 kCr
- Hauler + 2 kCr

But even so: those people who could reasonably choose between those three wouldn't need to, as one or two missions would enable them to switch in any case. Those people who struggle with the missions at the start would struggle even more if they had to choose between these three ships. Yes, I wrote "training missions" above - but on second though, the people most in need of those training missions are exactly the same people who won't take them because they're too eager to get into the game.

And finally, what's so bad about the Sidewinder? 3.0 stats are even better .

Good points.

I wasn't imagining the value of your "start" to be a debt. If you want to RP/Lore/Canon it then you could simply have chosen to go into service and those are the T's & C's of that service. I.e. you get to use own those ships in return for your work.

I've played games where training missions are required at the start. Didn't COD 1.0 require you to go through basic training prior to main game play?

Nothing wrong with the Sidey at all, this is why it's an option. I'd hope that all the options would be balanced so that choosing a Sidey would the obvious choice before choosing indenture. Perhaps even allow indentured players an opt out after the first two or three missions?

 

[Saool]

Why stop here?

Why not give all new commanders:

- 1 billion credits
- 17 Annacondas with the option to convert to a Cutter, Corvette or T10 for free
- Elite in all four ranks
- Max of all materials
- Maxed out engineered components on all ships
- Data on every system in the gallaxy

Then we don't need to play the game at all!

 

[Van R Flyheight]

Vulture, DBX, Keelback? These seem alarmingly high and you will have removed the first 25% of the game.

I wouldn't have a problem with being given the option of a Hauler or Eagle as both these ships are better at their given role but worse than the other in comparison to the sidewinder. Obviously still loaned though as they are more expensive vessels.

 

[GunnerBill]

I think you should start in the SRV, marooned on a planet, and have to gather materials to repair your ship, then finally take off, only to realise you need to go back because you need more fuel to fly to the next planet, then spend hours trying to get enough fuel to make a hyperspace jump, only to have to do it again in the next system, and the next...

It should be called the "No Man's Elite" start.



Joking aside, starting in the SRV would be a kinda cool option...

Damn I wish I'd thought of that. Pure brilliance! +1

Like that Red Room puzzle?

Why stop here?

Why not give all new commanders:

- 1 billion credits
- 17 Annacondas with the option to convert to a Cutter, Corvette or T10 for free
- Elite in all four ranks
- Max of all materials
- Maxed out engineered components on all ships
- Data on every system in the gallaxy

Then we don't need to play the game at all!

Dude did you read all the OP? -1

NOTE: Please guys don't turn this into a Cash Exploit discussion and /or a "no consequences" / "easy mode" type thread . I mean this with the best intentions it's simply an idea I had that might give newer players more incentive to play and enjoy all the game.

This is specifically not what the thread is about.

 

[Ddraig]

Would be cool if you could decide to be Federal, Imperial or Alliance at the start, and spawn in an appropiate place. Other than that, keep the Sidewinder and the 1000cr.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Why stop here?

Why not give all new commanders:

- 1 billion credits
- 17 Annacondas with the option to convert to a Cutter, Corvette or T10 for free
- Elite in all four ranks
- Max of all materials
- Maxed out engineered components on all ships
- Data on every system in the gallaxy

Then we don't need to play the game at all!

At first I thought "now there's genius", but then I thought "but, wait, no one will buy paint jobs anymore". Pity the poor artists, Saool, they have families to feed too.

 

[Vasious]

I wouldn't include engineered modules in any starting options.
If we assume a new player, they might not understand why their starting ship has a better X Y & Z than what they can get in outiftting

Also the Class 3 shield in the Hauler is vast overkill as the Hauler has a hull of 15 tons means it benefits nothing from a Class 3 over a class 2

If the Kickstarter starting options were a basis you could have

Mission Runner -> The Classic Sidewinder outfitted to do salvage, courier and scan missions
Tramp Trader -> A ZPG Hauler
Bounty hunter -> Eagle with a KWS
Explorer -> Adder Explorer

Plus what ever the starting CR are

 

[Xious]

Nope... Sidey is good.

 

[n4p0l3on]

Other options

1. Allow players to choose a customized sidey besides the jack of all trade one, one for fighting, one for trading, one for exploring

2. Produce new starting ships to diversify the game

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

Kickstarter backers have a few alternative starts. Sadly as we only get one save slot I've only used it once since launch which is a shame. I'd still have liked to be able to get my alternative starts on my alt account but sadly thats not possible.

We got these start options more or less: (I had to grab this from the KS page as I couldnt remember them off hand)
Imperial Bounty Hunter: Have the option to start in an Imperial Colony with an Imperial Eagle Mk II Fighter with upgraded weapons and shields and 1,000 CR
Federal Trader: Have the option to start in a Federal border system with a basic Cobra Mk III loaded with cargo worth 1,000 CR and 1,000 CR in cash.
Pirate: Have the option to start in an anarchic Frontier system with a stolen but upgraded Cobra Mk III and only 100 CR.
Independent Trader: Have the option to start in the Lave system with a basic Cobra Mk III and only 100 CR
Explorer: Have the option to start on the edge of explored space with a long range version of the Cobra Mk III and 3,000 CR