Simple but radical redesign of exploration

[clinton]

I've been thinking about the "Road to Riches" issue, and I think exploration needs a totally different approach. This is what I suggest. Firstly:

- Zero rewards for scanning already scanned objects. They're revealed to your nav computer, but that's it.

Instead the following exploration rewards:

1) First discovered bonus.
2) A new "first to land an SRV on a planet" bonus.
3) Also, first to collect a particular material on that planet.

This will actually mean that exploration involves, well, exploration, as in going somewhere no-one has gone before. The third reward encourages people to get in their SRV and roam around the planet, without having some arbitrary "time on planet" counter. The rewards for collecting materials on a particular planet should be based on their galaxy wide rarity, so whilst you'll get small rewards from picking up common mats on planets that people previously haven't, the big money will come from going to planets which commonly spawn rare materials.

The numbers should be set so that exploration out in the void should be similarly rewarding (or maybe slightly moreso) than it is now, based on the amount of time taken. Yes, this approach will mean that as the galaxy is explored exploration will become more difficult (as there's less new things to explore) but the galaxy is so big it's unlikely to become a serious problem anytime soon. And if needed, if exploration becomes harder as more of the galaxy is explored simply increasing the rewards should balance that.

As the only rewards from exploration are "firsts", then you'll have to actually blaze your own trail. There's no way to have a "Road to Riches" as once on person does it it's not worth anything anymore. But I think that's a good thing. There's lots of space to blaze your own trail in the galaxy.

What do other players (and FDev for that matter) think about this approach?

 

[JosiahD]

I agree with the need for some form of first landed recognition, but I disagree with zero payment for scanning already discovered objects. It is the way it is because Frontier recognised early that later 'explorers' needed to get something from the explored regions as they expand outwards. Such later explorers now need to travel a fair way out to start getting those first discoveries, even though there can still be some lucky finds quite close to the bubble. Good move for later players in my opinion. Think of it as surveying rather than exploring - I prefer to think of the initial jump into a system and the honk as the exploration, with the scanning of each object constituting surveying. That way explorers just starting out can still make something from surveys of even previously discovered objects even though they need to go further to start getting those first discoveries.

I don't think I agree with rewards for first discoverer of materials. I'd prefer some kind of recognition for finding geyser or magma sites and such....now if I could actually get those to appear though once I do find the darn POIs on the scanner.....

 

[goemon]

What do other players (and FDev for that matter) think about this approach?

i don't like it.

while i might be in favour to massively buff the first discovery bonus and make it most of the recent buff to exploration payouts, i think it is quite important that players can go to some of the more spectacular sights around the bubble (eskimo nebula, for exampel), and still earn something on the way. scanning an undiscovered planets takes as long as a discovered planet - in terms of effort.

also i don't like it from a more realistically approach. why should a faction pay millions of CR for a earth-like world 35 kylies out, but not for more data on a ELW around the corner? and following your logic, there shouldn't be telescopes still watching the sun in our days, or satellites scanning earth these days, as "they are already scanned".

 

[CMDR Pugwash]

I agree with the need for some form of first landed recognition, but I disagree with zero payment for scanning already discovered objects. It is the way it is because Frontier recognised early that later 'explorers' needed to get something from the explored regions as they expand outwards. Such later explorers now need to travel a fair way out to start getting those first discoveries, even though there can still be some lucky finds quite close to the bubble. Good move for later players in my opinion. Think of it as surveying rather than exploring - I prefer to think of the initial jump into a system and the honk as the exploration, with the scanning of each object constituting surveying. That way explorers just starting out can still make something from surveys even though they need to go further to start getting those first discoveries.

I don't think I agree with rewards for first discoverer of materials. I'd prefer some kind of recognition for finding geyser or magma sites and such....now if I could actually get those to appear though once I do find the darn POIs on the scanner.....

but there are no POIs out in the black. As I understand it they are only within a certain radius of the Bubble and, to a lesser degree, Colonia.

 

[Morbad]

Other than those objects in populated systems that everyone automatically gets detailed data for, I think it's safe to say that more scans are better and that additional scans from other sources/time periods would still have value.

 

[JosiahD]

but there are no POIs out in the black. As I understand it they are only within a certain radius of the Bubble and, to a lesser degree, Colonia.

There are indeed POIs out in the black - geysers and magma sites. Have found quite a few but there's a bug preventing them from appearing at the surface when you land at them. Even have a few screenshots from my last exploration run out to Hawking's Gap as I was thinking of putting in a bug report but I gather it's a known bug.

 

[ChiefRedCloud]

I may be missing your point OP but you seem to be indicating a more "realistic " view of exploring. However I believe you have to have balance to encourage other players to explore. This is where each player can explore and discover what others have already done. If you can read about it, why do it? For your own experience, of course. The reward isnt actually in the credits but the discovery.

If this was reality you would most likely have a sponsor to explore. Government or private as you would not have much of your own, unless you were born with millions, to finance your own.

Am I close or way off base?

Chief

 

[Jaiotu]

If I recall correctly the original plan for exploration was that rewards for scanning an object would decrease as more people delivered data on that object. For instance: The first person to scan Sagittarius A* would have received a very handsome reward indeed while those who came later would receive a reward that would decrease over time until the reward dwindles to essentially zero.

We now have a system that consistently rewards players equally with the exception of the first discoverer who gets a bonus. I think Frontier should keep the payouts as they are.

The problem isn't the financial reward for exploration. The problem, in my opinion, is tying Exploration Rank directly to this financial reward.

When it comes to combat you reach a rank where eventually knocking off "harmless" "competent" or even "expert" foes don't count toward your rank. Exploration could use a similar "fix" where, as your rank increases, you stop gaining rank for scanning previously discovered planets and stars. Cap exploration rank gains from passenger missions so that by the time you reach Ranger or Pioneer they no longer count toward rank gains. You still get the financial rewards but to reach "Elite" you'd have to actually go out and find something NEW.

And, while fixing this, don't base rank solely on how far away something is. Finding an ELW 65,000 ly from the core worlds is essentially meaningless. Finding a never before scanned ELW within shouting distance of the bubble should however be priceless as it represents a real resource that could be tapped by mankind.

 

[CMDR Goro]

I've been thinking about the "Road to Riches" issue, and I think exploration needs a totally different approach. This is what I suggest. Firstly:

- Zero rewards for scanning already scanned objects. They're revealed to your nav computer, but that's it.

Instead the following exploration rewards:

1) First discovered bonus.
2) A new "first to land an SRV on a planet" bonus.
3) Also, first to collect a particular material on that planet.

This will actually mean that exploration involves, well, exploration, as in going somewhere no-one has gone before. The third reward encourages people to get in their SRV and roam around the planet, without having some arbitrary "time on planet" counter. The rewards for collecting materials on a particular planet should be based on their galaxy wide rarity, so whilst you'll get small rewards from picking up common mats on planets that people previously haven't, the big money will come from going to planets which commonly spawn rare materials.

The numbers should be set so that exploration out in the void should be similarly rewarding (or maybe slightly moreso) than it is now, based on the amount of time taken. Yes, this approach will mean that as the galaxy is explored exploration will become more difficult (as there's less new things to explore) but the galaxy is so big it's unlikely to become a serious problem anytime soon. And if needed, if exploration becomes harder as more of the galaxy is explored simply increasing the rewards should balance that.

As the only rewards from exploration are "firsts", then you'll have to actually blaze your own trail. There's no way to have a "Road to Riches" as once on person does it it's not worth anything anymore. But I think that's a good thing. There's lots of space to blaze your own trail in the galaxy.

What do other players (and FDev for that matter) think about this approach?

How about NO!
Removing all rewords besides 1st scanned means stonewalling new players as nearest unscaned undiscovered systems are like 2000ly away <_<.

I just dont understamd why all the salt about rtr. Dony wanna? Dont use it why does it hurt you that someone else has some rank you cant eaven see?

For the record, been playing since launch, been to core twice... i THINK my rank is ranger...

 

[c00ky1970]

I do like the idea of a reward for actually landing on planets and doing things in an SRV.

collecting 3 different materials to 'simulate' collecting samples for return would be something that is based on existing gameplay limitations.

I would prefer a Science pack that you could fit to your SRV and use that do do "Science" and get a reward for returning that data to the bubble.

 

[Stonn Mrogg]

2) A new "first to land an SRV on a planet" bonus.
3) Also, first to collect a particular material on that planet.

Yeah.

The rest not so much.

 

[Slopey]

Imho, all they need to do is tie First Discovery counts into the ranking (and reset everyone's Elite status for Exploration based on that!!! (status only, not earned credits)). You'd still get paid as per now, but you couldn't rank up through to Elite without first discoverer merits.

I'm out in the black past Colonia at the moment exploring away, with about 100M cr to go until I hit Elite.

It strikes me that I shouldn't bother. I should sidewinder taxi back to the bubble, and follow the published routes which will easily get me over that line in no time at all.

Heck - there are PS4 users who are already Elite in exploration less than a week after launch with the above method - it's a joke.

Tie it to first discovered, add some salvage and a higher density of interesting stuff out in the black, add an optional SRV bonus also (remember not everyone has Horizons though) - maybe a first discovered for planetary features or similar, and the exploration rank will actually have a point going forward. :/

 

[Mengy]

Imho, all they need to do is tie First Discovery counts into the ranking (and reset everyone's Elite status for Exploration based on that!!! (status only, not earned credits)). You'd still get paid as per now, but you couldn't rank up through to Elite without first discoverer merits.

Huh, that's actually a pretty neat idea. I like it.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Imho, all they need to do is tie First Discovery counts into the ranking (and reset everyone's Elite status for Exploration based on that!!! (status only, not earned credits)). You'd still get paid as per now, but you couldn't rank up through to Elite without first discoverer merits.

I'm out in the black past Colonia at the moment exploring away, with about 100M cr to go until I hit Elite.

It strikes me that I shouldn't bother. I should sidewinder taxi back to the bubble, and follow the published routes which will easily get me over that line in no time at all.

Heck - there are PS4 users who are already Elite in exploration less than a week after launch with the above method - it's a joke.

Tie it to first discovered, add some salvage and a higher density of interesting stuff out in the black, add an optional SRV bonus also (remember not everyone has Horizons though) - maybe a first discovered for planetary features or similar, and the exploration rank will actually have a point going forward. :/

Couple of things:

1. I never understand why people worry about how other people play the game.
2. Tying 1st Disco into the Exploration ranking makes things progressively harder and harder for new starters, as they have to travel further and further afield to find an undiscovered system. Doesn't seem fair to me.
3. I reset my save after 2.1 but I still have 1st Disco on systems from before then. How do you propose to handle that?


Okay, three things

 

[Slopey]

Couple of things:

1. I never understand why people worry about how other people play the game.
2. Tying 1st Disco into the Exploration ranking makes things progressively harder and harder for new starters, as they have to travel further and further afield to find an undiscovered system. Doesn't seem fair to me.
3. I reset my save after 2.1 but I still have 1st Disco on systems from before then. How do you propose to handle that?


Okay, three things

1. This isn't about other people - I care about my game, and it is blatantly obvious that there is no merit to me continuing to wander in the black scanning earthlikes etc in a tedious fashion (which I did quite enjoy I might add when I thought it might mean something), when I can follow one of the routes and get it done asap. An "Elite" rank (imho) was never supposed to be something you could do in a week...

2. But does flying around a list of preset systems, freely available, to get Elite in Exploration in under a week seem fair to those who headed out to the black exploring in the first place? Also - 2-3 jumps out of the bubble, and you can start picking up first discoverer - I did several on my way out for this trip.

3. Obviously your tags would remain, but the credit would only be for those scanned by the current commander. The previous commanders who you reset are gone - that's assuming FD tracks it by something other than commander name so knows that the 5th instance of Slopey isn't the same as the 1st for example (i.e. a UID on a db entry).

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

1. This isn't about other people - I care about my game, and it is blatantly obvious that there is no merit to me continuing to wander in the black scanning earthlikes etc in a tedious fashion (which I did quite enjoy I might add when I thought it might mean something), when I can follow one of the routes and get it done asap. An "Elite" rank (imho) was never supposed to be something you could do in a week...

If you don't want to take the shortcut, don't take the shortcut.
I know that sounds trite, but ultimately it's the truth. Just because there's an easy way to achieve something, doesn't mean you have to do it that way.

2. But does flying around a list of preset systems, freely available, to get Elite in Exploration in under a week seem fair to those who headed out to the black exploring in the first place? Also - 2-3 jumps out of the bubble, and you can start picking up first discoverer - I did several on my way out for this trip.

My Elite Exploration rank is not reduced in any way by the fact that it's now easier to attain.

3. Obviously your tags would remain, but the credit would only be for those scanned by the current commander. The previous commanders who you reset are gone - that's assuming FD tracks it by something other than commander name so knows that the 5th instance of Slopey isn't the same as the 1st for example (i.e. a UID on a db entry).

I suspect they'd track it by the unique Cmdr ID, not by an instance of that, so a simple database search for my ID is going to give the wrong result.

 

[GJ51]

I've said many times that exploration rank should only be tied to First Discovered tags earned.

Anything else is just tourism.

 

[h347h]

We could also make jumping to systems with out nav points be like an interdiction mini game. Lose you end up out between systems with some ship damage. Win you arrive safely with no damage.

Then on top of that add in the crewman idea I came up with that when you have crew they can repair your ship but you have to mine materials for the repairs.

The more variety of food and luxury/rare goods the better moral they have throughout the trek. The bright side is they could repair everything while the ship is working. But they can only repair to 80%. To replicate they can't completely repair it unless they get to a dock. Doing a reboot would speed up their repair time drastically.

Also when ever you take module damage they could report it and bring some more life to the game.

 

[h347h]

I've said many times that exploration rank should only be tied to First Discovered tags earned.

Anything else is just tourism.

That is literally by definition not correct.

 

[Mengy]

We could also make jumping to systems with out nav points be like an interdiction mini game. Lose you end up out between systems with some ship damage. Win you arrive safely with no damage.

Add a interdiction style minigame to the hyperdrive loading screen? Interesting idea, it could also be designed so that short jumps were easy and long range jumps made the minigame harder.


On the topic of redesigning exploration, I'll just point to my thread in the suggestion forums with all of my ideas: Exploration Development: a Galaxy of Possibilities