He should embrace himself, that's all.
PvP simple question about ed pvpers.
He should embrace himself, that's all.
There are some really good PvPers out there, with good skill, and use that skill to find challenging opponents to test their mettle.
I applaud such players their skills and mentality.
Then there are those who simply want to kill weaker targets for the lulz. Some of them because they are bored, some of them because they get a kick out of it regardless, some are even the good PvPers.
And then there are the really crap PvPers who need to have an advantatge in PvP so pick on weaker targets. These are the sort of players who would get wrecked in a real PvP game, so they hang out in ED where they can target easy targets with little risk to themselves.
Fortunately, ED provides the opportunity to play with who you want, so if you have an issue being in the same game mode with such people, you can always play in a different mode.
I applaud such players their skills and mentality.
Then there are those who simply want to kill weaker targets for the lulz. Some of them because they are bored, some of them because they get a kick out of it regardless, some are even the good PvPers.
And then there are the really crap PvPers who need to have an advantatge in PvP so pick on weaker targets. These are the sort of players who would get wrecked in a real PvP game, so they hang out in ED where they can target easy targets with little risk to themselves.
Fortunately, ED provides the opportunity to play with who you want, so if you have an issue being in the same game mode with such people, you can always play in a different mode.
Goose4291
Banned
I'm still waiting on an explanation as to how Stockholm Syndrome is connected to attending a community event and listening to fifty-something e-spaceship enthusiasts acting like someone playing the game the way it was designed is akin to murdering babies.
I think the problem as always extends from perpetual victims taking e-spaceships too seriously, with a desire to justify any loss as being the fault of the other party worthy of vilification regardless of the circumstances by the forum consensus here.
As an Arissa plefdged player, If I and my four man wing kill your Hudson pledged, unshielded, unsupported type 6 at a fortification or prep site, I'm not 'griefing' people. I'm playing powerplay the way it was designed and in its original form encouraged. Theres no two ways about it.
Anyone suggesting otherwise and bringing ridiculous poefaced real world analogies into the equation should be challenged in some shape or form on their nonsense
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Sure, there times when people go too far and get too worked about about their virtual spaceships. And this happens on the PvP side as well (the rage people get into over someone combat logging on them! Its like someone killed their baby). Its not just ED either. Many games exist, especially PvP oriented ones, where the rage and salt flow on a regular basis, even between "consenting" PvPers.
And sure, if you are doing PP and target an opposing PPer, the odds don't matter. Once you pledge you are effectively painting a big "shoot me" sign on your back. I have no issue with this. The point I was making, which i'm sure you understood, was about those who target weaker targets just to get a kick out of killing a weaker target.
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LOL
The point is relevant though. If someone can't stand the idea of getting shot at for the lulz, then ED does offer many ways to avoid it. From "git gud", to stay away from known ganking systems, to playing in a different mode.
In short, if everyone who cried about getting ganked simply stopped playing in open it would have a number of positive effects. The forum posts complainging about ganking, gankers, etc, would dwindle. The gankers would get a lot less exposure and infamy (and i'm pretty sure many of them only do it for that imfamy - so some might get bored and quit), and there would be less soft targets for the gankers. It would also reduce the isntances of combat logging (although combat logging by PvPers would remain). The gankers would have less soft targets, largely players would know how to handle themselves and make life harder for the gankers.
Therefore i feel, despite the amusement of seeing <someone else> post a lot about modes, is its actually a good thing that should be brought up and encouraged as much as possible with those who complain about gankers/ganking. Get out of open, its not for you, PGs and Solo exist and are designed for people like you (not you Goose!).
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I've been to a couple of community events (Birmingham 2016 & Cologne 2018) and yes, it is a annoying to be talked at by some opinionated geek. There is as much of an echo chamber at that end of the scale as the other (ie players only talking to other, like minded players & never having their dubious logic tested).
I think community events are very popular with sociable people so the demographic you're likely to meet at a community event will be skewed (ie not proportionally representative of the whole community). Social players tend to clump together, creating the hotspots that attract the attacking playstyles. They also tend to consider meeting other players more of a priority than actually building ships. Lots of generalisations here, lots of exceptions.
So when you go to a community event you're more likely to meet a social player, and social players probably get attacked more than they do the attacking so are inevitably going to form a view biased against PvP playstyles. Most of the players I was talked at when I attended community events had Cobras & Asps, my owning a Corvette was really impressive to them (maybe they were being polite). That I owned several ships all build for specific purposes seemed to be a completely alien way of playing. They had one or two ships (Vulture/AspX combo was popular).
And they are the people that the Community team & other Frontier employees actually meet & talk to. And we end up with stuff like the FSS where the player sits stationary in supercruise for minutes at a time
Goose4291
Banned
I think the difference (at least for me) is the legitimacy of the situation. Being killed in a manner that is not only allowed, but encouraged in some instances by game mechanics, shouldnt generate any bile and vitriol, whereas people actively cheating (which combat logging is) should be treated openly with some level of disdain. Speaking as someone who's been attacked by a player, who pulls the plug the moment they realised things weren't going the way they hoped, I can genuinely understand the anger. Particularly when there are so many legitimate easy ways to disengage from a firefight.
However, I do wonder if it's not being clearly laid out as to who combat log haters are throwing their anger at. I cant speak for everyone on 'my side' of the argument, but for me, whilst I'm annoyed by the odd CLog player as and when they occur, my genuine anger is reserved for the forum consensus' promotion of it as some sort of valid tactic (including moderators) well after the point FDev declared it was cheating, and FDev themselves for fostering the situation we're in where their inactivity on the matter of something they've labelled clearly as cheating leads to people continuing to do it due to a sense of impunity.
It is very much a valid point, but the problem for me has always been when people start gaming the modes to get an advantage, or stifle gameplay where you have to engage your brain once in a while.
I know I use it a lot, but the state of PP is a prime, easy go to example of this. Compare the way it was at day one, with merit haulers, top cover pilots and chain interdictors running overwatch for them, a community engaging with itself and working as a team gain an advantage over their opponents, with dynamic firefighter opening up all over the place with what we have now, where everything is done with near absolute safety in the comfort of modes using min-max trade builds and AFK turret boats. For longevity of engagement and an active community, I know which I'd rather have.
In short, I think you're being tad naive with this. Those people would still whine and moan, it'd just be about something else loosely connected, such as how 'damn coward griefers' have shut down a CG from the safety of solo/PG, like we saw with Operation Athena.
I always find it odd that the more 'passionate' pan-modalists who tell us the virtue of the mode system are amongst the first to request a god-mod when things don't go their way with the BGS, or as I said earlier in this thread (at least I think it was this one, they tend to blur into one) advocate for mode locking griefers into open or the (at the time) nullification of UA impact on their preferred modestyle.
I've been to a couple of community events (Birmingham 2016 & Cologne 2018) and yes, it is a annoying to be talked at by some opinionated geek. There is as much of an echo chamber at that end of the scale as the other (ie players only talking to other, like minded players & never having their dubious logic tested).
I think community events are very popular with sociable people so the demographic you're likely to meet at a community event will be skewed (ie not proportionally representative of the whole community). Social players tend to clump together, creating the hotspots that attract the attacking playstyles. They also tend to consider meeting other players more of a priority than actually building ships. Lots of generalisations here, lots of exceptions.
So when you go to a community event you're more likely to meet a social player, and social players probably get attacked more than they do the attacking so are inevitably going to form a view biased against PvP playstyles. Most of the players I was talked at when I attended community events had Cobras & Asps, my owning a Corvette was really impressive to them (maybe they were being polite). That I owned several ships all build for specific purposes seemed to be a completely alien way of playing. They had one or two ships (Vulture/AspX combo was popular).
And they are the people that the Community team & other Frontier employees actually meet & talk to. And we end up with stuff like the FSS where the player sits stationary in supercruise for minutes at a time
I'm going to rear-end this I think. I happen to love community gatherings and am quite good friends IRL with a lot of the big PvE types and their groups. It's why occasionally I'm on Hutton Radio when I'm down in Vingteuns neck of the woods for work.
While a little annoying, it's not about being talked down to/at by players. It's when you're stood at the bar with your wife and you overhear chestbeating talk from someone who positions themselves as being a nice, friendly person who doesn't take this game too seriously about how they'd glass any SDC members who came and everyone's figuratively high-fiving them for the comment, it really gets me back up.
Goose, i have never seen a moderator even slightly condone combat logging. The closest i can think of might have been someone (mod or not mod) is saying they can understand why some people do it.
As for your other points, sure, largely valid and i have no disagreements with therm. There are those who will still complain etc, but you always get those. My point being, if people didn't come to the forum to rage about being ganked, then there would be no threads for those who jump on the bandwagon to complain in.
I know, i know, its not going to happen. You will always get those who fly in open in a shieldless T9 and then complain when they get ganked. And of course, the odd newbie who in their Sidewinder (or Anaconda - because credits easy), not understanding the game or modes, and without the experience or ability to escape, comes to the forums to vent.
This latter is quite understandable as well, and it would be great if people offered them advice about modes, gitting gud, etc, and if the resident gankers didn't laugh at them and support the ganking.
I think it would really help if some of the more vocal PvPers around here would actually condone ganking as a playstyle on the forums instead of saying "Its all part of the game". Sure it is, but ganking also drives people away from open and from the game. Maybe it is, but it would help more if people instead of vocally supporting it, offered constructive advice to the "victims" instead of just "LOL, n00b, git gud".
As for your other points, sure, largely valid and i have no disagreements with therm. There are those who will still complain etc, but you always get those. My point being, if people didn't come to the forum to rage about being ganked, then there would be no threads for those who jump on the bandwagon to complain in.
I know, i know, its not going to happen. You will always get those who fly in open in a shieldless T9 and then complain when they get ganked. And of course, the odd newbie who in their Sidewinder (or Anaconda - because credits easy), not understanding the game or modes, and without the experience or ability to escape, comes to the forums to vent.
This latter is quite understandable as well, and it would be great if people offered them advice about modes, gitting gud, etc, and if the resident gankers didn't laugh at them and support the ganking.
I think it would really help if some of the more vocal PvPers around here would actually condone ganking as a playstyle on the forums instead of saying "Its all part of the game". Sure it is, but ganking also drives people away from open and from the game. Maybe it is, but it would help more if people instead of vocally supporting it, offered constructive advice to the "victims" instead of just "LOL, n00b, git gud".
I'm with you on this.
People need to remember to separate the player from their play style. Despite finding ganking and griefing negative gameplay, I still can get along and be friendly with those gankers as people. Over the years I've had good conversations with Rinzler, Ryan, and several others, despite our forum disagreements, and if i met them in real life, i'd be happy to stand them a pint at the bar. There are only a few i've been unable to have a meaningful conversation with, who have behaved like absoloute children when trying to talk to them. One of those i have blocked on the forums, the other is someone who provides me with the occasional bit of forum entertainment so i don't block them.
I'm sure you remember Nitek, who made a lot of waves as a ganker. Yet i spent a fun afternoon with him playing ED and discussing the game with him and his NaCl fellows. Yes people reading, the NaCl guys, at least some of them, are actually decent people once you get them away from the whole ganking thing.
The problem with forum talk is you miss a lot of the subtleties of conversation, people are often out to prove a point, or that their opinion is the right one, and often that is why the barriers go up and suddenly instead of having a normal human conversation its all carebears and baby eaters.
Its why i appreciate talking to you on the forums, you can converse without dragigng the tone of the conversation down, despite the limitations of forum discussions.
I'm not a particularly social person IRL or in the game, I went to the Birmingham one because it wasn't far and I hadn't been to one before, and to Cologne to talk to FDev employees face to face about a specific topic. I listened to a lot of other players stories at both because people like to talk about themselves, very few were interested in anything outside of whatever their player group was up to.
When you overhear people in any public area loudly proclaiming how tough they are it is because they are a loudmouth jerk and one assumes drunk. At the Birmingham meet a couple of people got a bit rowdy & tried to intimidate others, I was not a soft target & they moved off to presumably find easier prey. This behaviour is not okay, but it is not ED specific nor playstyle specific. I get it from both ends.
Here's my position. I can't think of any moderators who think differently.
forums.frontier.co.uk
NPC nightmares.
I've played for a year and never experienced a night like tonight. I've just had to switch off my Xbox cos I'll have no credits left. I picked up some cargo, and got interdicted by an NPC. Python wats 20t. Don't fancy taking a dangerous python on in my T9 so I don't even deploy fighter and give...
why are people still trying to understand the vocal PvPers....they do not care...... that is all we need to know and because of that it is utterly pointless trying to make them understand. The two camps are poles apart, and the differences cannot be reconciled. Everyone who dislikes PvP gameplay should just leave open and pray that the mode dies and get's replaced by open PvE. Both sides to the discussion are just banging their heads against a brick wall.
Hate PvP? Don't use open.
Hate PvP? Don't use open.
I feel like I'm in this weird one-man limbo that doesn't fall in either camp. I actually enjoy casual PvP, and I even enjoy being the "prey" (usually, not always), and I admit that I enjoy shooting at other players, even the Harmless Sidewinders in the starter system.
However, I DO care. I never destroy other players who don't have a chance against me. If I'm shooting at new players, I'll strip their shields and maybe knock their hulls down to 80% or so, and then I let them escape. I'll send them a comms letting them know I do not intend on destroying them, but rather I'm testing new weapons (which is usually the case). I also try not to target the same ship over and over again.
Now if the player is an experienced PP enemy or a known griefer, that's a different story. I had one such griefer down to 2% hull when he waked out in his Corvette, and I was disappointed, because I wanted him dead. Oh well. FWIW, the only way can I "win" against experienced griefers is by surviving long enough for the police to come and give me a hand, LOL.
As for losing ships, credits are so easy to come by that normally this isn't a big deal to me. The two things I don't want to lose is my SLF pilot and my exploration data, though the odds of a griefer finding me when I'm exploring is like 0.0001%.
It does make me sad that Open seems a bit empty lately. This is why I really don't like griefers - not because of what they do to me, but what they do to new players and peaceful players that drive those players into Solo or PG, making Open a ghost town. The PvPers are killing the very oceans they fish in!
I don't think you are alone. I think there are many like you. But people like you are often not so vocal and don't take to the forums as much (on any side) to get involved in such debates. They just play the game, try not to be a jerk, and have a good time.
My only gripe tends to be with those who go out of their way to be jerks and then try and defend it with "Its just a game" or "The rules (or gameplay) allow it", as if those are justifications for being a complete and utter womble.
Better idea: stop caring what other people think of you and your playstyle and keep repeating the fundamentals of this game.
Open Play is Open Play. Prepare for it. If you don't, don't get salty if you get smoked. Sure, it's ok to be frustrated or even mad for a few moments - but pick yourself back up and get back to it. On the other hand, it's not for everyone and that's OK.
Private Group and Solo Play are excellent mode choices if you're not interested in Open Play. No one should shame you for them, and if they do, poo poo on them.
I find the PvPers make the game more interesting now that I know what I'm doing. I just question the wisdom of "smoking" new players who can't get their Sidewinders through the mailslot yet. If they can't land their ships, how do you expect them to "prepare" for a wing of engineered gankers?
Still, I blame Frontier. The game itself should do more to protect players in hi-sec systems, and new players should be warned in a clear and bold way when they are venturing somewhere that is infested with gankers. Currently the game does more to warn me about not being able to zoom my FSS than it does about the dangers of playing in Open, LOL.
Smoking new players in starting zones is pretty lame. I mean, I've done it, but grew tired of it very quickly. If you're going to go after them, make sure it's fun for them too. Grab folks just to say hey. Pirate them. Reverse pirate them. Take them hostage and teach them how to dock. Silly stuff like that. Before I left the Bubble it was fun to pull new players, give them a KWS scan, then give them a nice message about being clean. The 'Wait, you're a player?' response was always great.
If a new player is outside the starting area though... I'm less inclined to look down upon it. Bit like leaving Vault 101 and heading straight into Deathclaw territory. That's a valuable lesson. Know what I mean?
If a new player is outside the starting area though... I'm less inclined to look down upon it. Bit like leaving Vault 101 and heading straight into Deathclaw territory. That's a valuable lesson. Know what I mean?
This approach is tempting, but I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to pull back in time or would get caught up in the heat of battle and poof there goes the paper sidey. And then there's the call of the dark side and all that. Better leave slippery slopes unslipped (for me that is).
I did say "vocal" PvP players, you know the type/who they are. Some have admitted they don't care about other players in open and I'm fine with that. So when others try to engage those PvPers to try and undersrtand the "why"...it's all pointless. Things are never going to change as long as people continue to go to open and I'm fine with that as well, those complaining should go to PG or solo. It's the only logical choice. Not sure it's killing the oceans as I beleve that last info we have is that open has the most players? Although I presume it depends on what system you play the game on. But that's the only choice people not willing to engage in PvP have...to leave open.
So you were not the PvP type I was referring to in my post.
I'm a new player.
I got smoked twice in Open Play by the same person last week.
I'm now back in group play with a friend and we're having a really good time.
I struggle a little bit with the PvP mindset of some but in the end with group play/solo play available the only thing I really wanted to see was a huge kick in the [redacted] for players who murder and end up getting killed themselves. I didn't know how that worked, but upon seeing another player's buy back screen it became clear the game does punish people for being good at murder. That is all I ever wanted in a game, right there. What I didn't want was for it to be insanely profitable with no punishment upon death.
I view being in open as identical to taking a wing mission while solo in a Sidewinder.
If you do that, you're gonna die. Period.
Even though 9/10 times I'm the victim I do want the option of Open Play although I wouldn't object to the noob system (LHS 3447 & Eravate) having some actual security.
That said, I'm not sure if that would cure the problem or if people would just complain about Kini etc. once they got there.
Maybe upon selecting open the game needs to have a pop up screen that says: "WARNING: MURDER CLOWNS LIVE HERE, DO YOU WANT TO CONTINUE?"