Simple way to make piracy better - PvP and PvE

[CMDR GTR2014]

Hellow folks and Devs, I'd like to propose an simple yet very interesting idea about piracy in Elite dangerous, some days ago i have an encounter with a fellow T-6 player who wouldn't give up his cargo, and died for it...

So some ideas on how piracy would be better for people to actualy get onto it (pirates are small in Elite unfortunately,or not), but one of them stick to my mind and now i can hardly see that the game without it.

We already have Materials drop when an NPC fellow are kiled ( for some reason this don't happen with players)...

SO i was thinking what about on ship destruction, some cargo could be salvagedable from the scrap that was once a ship?

I mean, 5%-10% MAX of cargo would survive, and EVEN those would be damaged to 20-40% integrity., meaning that they wont last long without scooped right away ( so you cant ditch the cops and get the cargo latter).

Now about the consequences of those acts:

For traders , this means that pirates now can also get some little cargo by blowing them up, wich is GOOD , because now they have to be able to survive an encounter or negotiate with the said pirate. No more "I'll take my gold to hell with me!" Stuff. And more "Ok, ok, lets talk my way out of this, he can blow me up for these cargo now..."

For pirates means that even if the guy wants to run, you can kill it for some little cargo , BUT then you have to suffer the killing bounty (that i think should be higher , 10k-20K per NPC , 1% of YOUR ship per player), Also those cargo with small hull will have to be managed because you'll have to deal with that and the security forces that come behind you...


I don't see any draw back on this.. only that more people would be interested in becoming a pirate in a CUThroath galaxy

PS: This looks like a simple thing to do since we already have ships spilling mats... comon, give us pirates some love.... it's not about killing the traders, but making then feel the need to give up SOME cargo without seeing the rebuy screen...

 

[Robert Maynard]

The fact that Frontier chose not to drop cargo when the ship is destroyed is probably to give the attacker no profit from simply destroying the target - which, in turn, gives the attacker an incentive to keep the target "alive".

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

The fact that Frontier chose not to drop cargo when the ship is destroyed is probably to give the attacker no profit from simply destroying the target - which, in turn, gives the attacker an incentive to keep the target "alive".

Yeah , but in the end that turn out to be bad, because now traders have "cloak drives" that they would use in any kind of danger... wich is not fair in any case for piracy... basicaly getting some cargo is harder than reaching Sag A , and i'm not asking much , 5% of a 100T is 5... of 50T is 2-3... thats like a consolation prize... and this even getting 10% hull means one slip and you lose the cargo....

 

[BlueFalcon]

I suggested this several times during the beta and gamma. Right now the trader knows if they die they deny the pirate of all the booty. I have had my targets self destruct before just to stop me from getting their cargo. If a small amount of cargo can survive that would help with this problem. It would still be more beneficial to the pirate to not destroy their target because they would make more money but if the pirate has to destroy the traders ship this at least gives the pirate a consolation prize.

I think I remember discussions a long time ago about different cargo having different durability ratings. Cargo that is more durable would be more likely to survive a ships destruction while less durable cargo is less likely to survive. I think that could be interesting.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

I suggested this several times during the beta and gamma. Right now the trader knows if they die they deny the pirate of all the booty. I have had my targets self destruct before just to stop me from getting their cargo. If a small amount of cargo can survive that would help with this problem. It would still be more beneficial to the pirate to not destroy their target because they would make more money but if the pirate has to destroy the traders ship this at least gives the pirate a consolation prize.

I think I remember discussions a long time ago about different cargo having different durability ratings. Cargo that is more durable would be more likely to survive a ships destruction while less durable cargo is less likely to survive. I think that could be interesting.

Yeah, I FEEL like many of the times i get cargo is because the guy "kinda" get into the "imersion" thing and try to act like it's beeing pirated. I mean, he KNOWS that he can get out this situation in 100 possibilities , but they give up cargo just for something diferent happen from time to time... i can count on both hands the time that i actualy got cargo the hard way from players... I hope in 2.2 we can get over with the cargo bug, and then i could do some real piracy....

PS: all in all, the only GOOD thing for piracy was LTDiamonds, nothing else...

Also a Good extra thing would be that we could have more High valuable cargo (on the market!!!!!) so piracy could have more variety (PvE AND PvP)

I mean most of the cargo lies on the 1k-10k price range, 10k-20k theres only 4 commodities buyable on the market ( Nerve agents, Throrium , Platinum,Imp Slaves)

If we had more valuable cargos AVALIBLE at the market from the range 20k-40k piracy would be MUCH more consistent , and not rely on LTDiamonds for living....

 

[Chrystoph]

Yeah , but in the end that turn out to be bad, because now traders have "cloak drives" that they would use in any kind of danger... wich is not fair in any case for piracy... basicaly getting some cargo is harder than reaching Sag A , and i'm not asking much , 5% of a 100T is 5... of 50T is 2-3... thats like a consolation prize... and this even getting 10% hull means one slip and you lose the cargo....

I suggested this several times during the beta and gamma. Right now the trader knows if they die they deny the pirate of all the booty. I have had my targets self destruct before just to stop me from getting their cargo. If a small amount of cargo can survive that would help with this problem. It would still be more beneficial to the pirate to not destroy their target because they would make more money but if the pirate has to destroy the traders ship this at least gives the pirate a consolation prize.

I think I remember discussions a long time ago about different cargo having different durability ratings. Cargo that is more durable would be more likely to survive a ships destruction while less durable cargo is less likely to survive. I think that could be interesting.

IMO, all this will do is make all traders into piñatas; break it to get what is inside...

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

IMO, all this will do is make all traders into piñatas; break it to get what is inside...

Have you ever read the starting post? how pinada would be to get 5% canister of a 100 cargo? No thats not a pinhada its a consolation prize for the pirate because traders ARE GREEDY! Once i was at a fed cargo delivery mission and i was asking for 4(FOUR,CUATRO,QUATRO) Tones of cargo for each ship that i interdicted, you know from 30 ship that i interdicted how many left cargo? 1 (ONE, UNO,UMA). mostly ships combat logued, others suffered damage for running away , one was destroyed...

Then tell me how balanced this is? there's almost no RISK for traders to go by... This would actualy make them say "I surrender" on chat wich would add to gameplay since they KNOW that it would be beneficial for BOTH not beeing blown up for the cargo,the trader would live and escape with some cargo and the pirate would not have a bounty for killing and maybe get some extra cargo...

 

[Robert Maynard]

Have you ever read the starting post? how pinada would be to get 5% canister of a 100 cargo? No thats not a pinhada its a consolation prize for the pirate because traders ARE GREEDY! Once i was at a fed cargo delivery mission and i was asking for 4(FOUR,CUATRO,QUATRO) Tones of cargo for each ship that i interdicted, you know from 30 ship that i interdicted how many left cargo? 1 (ONE, UNO,UMA). mostly ships combat logued, others suffered damage for running away , one was destroyed...

Then tell me how balanced this is? there's almost no RISK for traders to go by... This would actualy make them say "I surrender" on chat wich would add to gameplay since they KNOW that it would be beneficial for BOTH not beeing blown up for the cargo,the trader would live and escape with some cargo and the pirate would not have a bounty for killing and maybe get some extra cargo...

5% of a Cutter full of cargo amounts to significantly more - with a significantly larger rebuy for the trader.

Guaranteed cargo drops when a ship is destroyed could well reduce piracy to smash'n'grab with no effort taken to actually "pirate" (as there would be a guaranteed, if potentially smaller, payout).

As to players surrendering to pirates - good luck with that....

 

[Otherwhere]

Your suggestion benefits you as a pirate, but does nothing for the trader other than make them better targets.

No - the whole pirating mechanic needs a re-do, along with system security and interdictions.

 

[Chrystoph]

Then tell me how balanced this is? there's almost no RISK for traders to go by... This would actualy make them say "I surrender" on chat wich would add to gameplay since they KNOW that it would be beneficial for BOTH not beeing blown up for the cargo,the trader would live and escape with some cargo and the pirate would not have a bounty for killing and maybe get some extra cargo...

What you are requesting incentivizes gank tactics. It actually adds value for player killing. You may personally want to role play with your victims, but, the law of unintended consequences still being in effect, what you will be doing is adding a reward for PK behavior.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

5% of a Cutter full of cargo amounts to significantly more - with a significantly larger rebuy for the trader.

Guaranteed cargo drops when a ship is destroyed could well reduce piracy to smash'n'grab with no effort taken to actually "pirate" (as there would be a guaranteed, if potentially smaller, payout).

As to players surrendering to pirates - good luck with that....

Good luck taking down a Cutter... Also with the 10% hull of the canister i garantee you that wont be time enought to take more than 10-20 T of cargo....

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Your suggestion benefits you as a pirate, but does nothing for the trader other than make them better targets.

No - the whole pirating mechanic needs a re-do, along with system security and interdictions.

Yeah obvious benefits pirates, But tell me, how many options does a Trader have? CLog,Clog on interdiction,Clog before interdiction, Hi wake , low wake, fight, hold on to system security arrive, the hole piracy is almost impossible against players. maybe you never tried that , so you cant just understand what i'm talking about...

The fact is , to get any cargo by force you need to have some consent of the trader somehow, even he does not Clog, or he fights, he runs, or he comply. you can only get some cargo in 2 situations if he fights back or if he complies.

Now make traders better targets make sense, they are transporting valuable cargo... they SHOULD be good targets for piracy...

I also agree on the Re-do, as i said earlier we NEED more fines/bounty for killing a player, i've read somewhere an great idea sandro had about it, that would be giving you a % of your ship as fine... (cant be used as a "TRANSFER" money beetween players, but if you die you need to pay it)

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

What you are requesting incentivizes gank tactics. It actually adds value for player killing. You may personally want to role play with your victims, but, the law of unintended consequences still being in effect, what you will be doing is adding a reward for PK behavior.

Are player Killing prohibited? Against rules? No ,right!? So lets get on to it... If you as a trader get interdicted in the scenario that if you die the guy would get 5% of your cargo... would you:

A- send a surrender message, and negotiate.

B- Drop 5% of your cargo (would slow the pirate), and run for your life.

C- Try to make a run for it. Even if i know that he would get cargo is destroys me..

On the actual Scenario is this the traders choice:

A - Run for it, he cant get the cargo if i die.Also, if he disables me, i just quit the game.

B - I'm bored lets see what happens.



Another way to make it work, would be that Hatch breakers would Mass lock the target.
(also that they are faster than 200m/s... almost every ship is faster than that!!!)


Right now pirates are jokes for traders. AND THAT INCENTIVES PK... Just imagine a guy that interdicts 10 guys and none of them would take his threat seriously.... the next guy would die just for making an example...

 

[Robert Maynard]

Are player Killing prohibited? Against rules? No ,right!?

Indeed not - however, it is specifically not encouraged either - the proposal seeks to change that.

 

[Otherwhere]

I agree that pirates - NPC ones as I can only play in Solo (XBox, non-Gold subscriber) - have been a bit of a joke. I feel sorry for them what with everyone simply submitting, boosting away, and then low- or hi-waking out. "But - come back! I haven't made my demands yet!" OR they are so OP, they simply destroy you with no profit to them and nothing but frustration for the Player.

Which is why the whole thing needs to be reworked. Pirates shouldn't be PKs, except rarely. And the penalty for murder needs to be much, much more significant so that Players pause before they destroy someone versus let them go. Pirates should have a very hard time finding a safe harbor what with bounty hunters and system security on the lookout for them.

I don't know what would be a good solution, frankly. If it were more fun and less work, I'd like to give it a try. But as it now stands, it's too much risk for too little reward.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

I agree that pirates - NPC ones as I can only play in Solo (XBox, non-Gold subscriber) - have been a bit of a joke. I feel sorry for them what with everyone simply submitting, boosting away, and then low- or hi-waking out. "But - come back! I haven't made my demands yet!" OR they are so OP, they simply destroy you with no profit to them and nothing but frustration for the Player.

Which is why the whole thing needs to be reworked. Pirates shouldn't be PKs, except rarely. And the penalty for murder needs to be much, much more significant so that Players pause before they destroy someone versus let them go. Pirates should have a very hard time finding a safe harbor what with bounty hunters and system security on the lookout for them.

I don't know what would be a good solution, frankly. If it were more fun and less work, I'd like to give it a try. But as it now stands, it's too much risk for too little reward.

About NPC pirates... you can give cargo for life to them, i already tried... just drop something before or slightly after they scan, if you boost and they send a message of death then you're screwed XD... They say some funny things when you give then cargo also...

About Pirates being PK.... Pirates MUST be threatening... when being interdicted by a pirate you need to feel fear... and the only fear you can have as a trader is being blown up or being crippled enought to think about Self destructing your ship.... Killing is part of the job.

As i said earlier, 100% agree on bigger fines and bounty... Also because this means that you can be followed by an Npc in a PvP interdiction(already happened with me), and even a Eagle BH can help the trader get away...

Now, part of it, (bigger trade off for destructing a player, would be cargo spill) i mean yeah the trader being a     not leting go of its cargo... destruction of the ship is inevitable, since if you give up destroying him , you leave yourself to a shame, a pirate that don't finish your job is not a pirate...

Now expanding what i already said.

5% cargo
+
cargo being damage to 10-20%

This means that you have roughly 30 seconds to get the cargo before it explodes.

I don't know about you.. but even 3 limpets can get more than 10 cargo in that time ( remember that the cargo will be in movement for most of the time, reducing even more the window...)

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Indeed not - however, it is specifically not encouraged either - the proposal seeks to change that.

So. if a player has a bounty of 1M in its head... how is this not encouraged?

this is just the other way around

 

[Otherwhere]

I tried surrendering cargo twice. (Both NPC pirates.) Both destroyed me before I had a chance to even start dropping cargo.

I understand Frontier tweaked the NPC AI to give you more time, but I haven't been willing to test it.

I think more Player traders/victims would be willing to drop cargo if they had a better expectation of survival if they complied. There's nothing Frontier can do, however, to ensure that Player pirates don't simply gank people anyway. So - as a Player - my best chance at survival is to fight or run away. It's not to surrender cargo - at the moment.

What's needed is more incentive to drop cargo on the trader's part, and stronger repercussions on the pirate if they commit murder, for piracy to really work in game.

 

[Robert Maynard]

So. if a player has a bounty of 1M in its head... how is this not encouraged?

this is just the other way around

The player with the bounty did something to incur the bounty - the attraction of the bounty to bounty hunters is part of the "punishment" for the acts involved in gaining the bounty.

What did traders do to deserve the attention?

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

The player with the bounty did something to incur the bounty - the attraction of the bounty to bounty hunters is part of the "punishment" for the acts involved in gaining the bounty.

What did traders do to deserve the attention?

Hauling Big Profitable cargo without Escorts? I mean, with the new SLF things will be more interesting on this part...

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I tried surrendering cargo twice. (Both NPC pirates.) Both destroyed me before I had a chance to even start dropping cargo.

I understand Frontier tweaked the NPC AI to give you more time, but I haven't been willing to test it.

I think more Player traders/victims would be willing to drop cargo if they had a better expectation of survival if they complied. There's nothing Frontier can do, however, to ensure that Player pirates don't simply gank people anyway. So - as a Player - my best chance at survival is to fight or run away. It's not to surrender cargo - at the moment.

What's needed is more incentive to drop cargo on the trader's part, and stronger repercussions on the pirate if they commit murder, for piracy to really work in game.

What i used to think is, i need a GOOD macro for interdictions... so the guy are understanding that I WANT the cargo, not his death... right now i have some macros that actualy DO help the submission:

[REC] Ahoy!This is The Pair of Jacks Pirates!! STOP YOUR SHIP AND COMPLY,Try anything stupid and ye will be vacum!!! Savvy? c)

[REC] Ahoy!This is The Pair of Jacks Pirates!! This is a snatch attack!!I will take out your FSD then your cargo hatch, but YOU WILL SURVIVE!!! Savvy? c|

Dead man, ye soon Feed the space fishes... Unless ye surrender the booty!

You can see that the 1 and 2 are for diferent tipes of piracy... The first one is for a Normal Raise the back attack...

The second one is more of a disabling ships for piracy...

and the third one is the last chance... I usualy use it 3-4 times before killing someone... but in the end.. most of people that goes into this action never surrender...

 

[Robert Maynard]

and the third one is the last chance... I usualy use it 3-4 times before killing someone... but in the end.. most of people that goes into this action never surrender...

.... there's no need to: ship destroyed = escape pod & rebuy. That's the extent of the consequence that the pirate can inflict on the trader.