Slave Carriers Update

Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.

photomankc

photomankc
Starshot_Jigawatts said:
I asked this last night and nobody answered. I guess I would like to know do you think there should be ANY conduct in Elite deemed unacceptable? And if so, where does that line get drawn. Because to me it's perfectly reasonable to hold the opinion that the guys actions were pretty unacceptable.
Click to expand...

  • Behavior that leads people to the loss of real money, BSing a noob that they have to buy certain livery to get such-n-such.
  • Abusive language directed at them or stalking them and repeatedly killing them.
  • Cheats, hacks etc.
  • Doxxing players and giving out personal information on them.

Probably a few others that I might not be thinking of. But this? Nope. I don't think it's unacceptable. I mean I was interested in gearing up to help those players get loose. Could have been something fun and interesting.
 

Sublime

S
Red Anders said:
I think the question isn't so much wherever the line may ultimately be drawn though, since by definition you can put any five people in a room and you'll get five different opinions on where that should be. Including the only one that matters which is the official one. The issue is should all five people know where the line will be drawn ahead of any decision they may make about crossing it and in this case (and others previously) I'm not really sure that was the case.

For me rules in general are absolutely fine both in games and in society - we all accept that the developers are ultimately the ones that make them in the game but like I said it seems fairly clear in this case that these players did not think this was a bannable transgression ahead of the fact and I for one couldn't have pointed to something that would have definitiely stated otherwise at the time, i.e. before FDev apparently decided that it was.

There are aspects of the rules that FDev have (based on the stated assumptions as to their actions) decided now, retrospectively, do apply and I don't deny their right to do that either, but I know that if I was the guy they were turning round to and saying 'that thing you did a couple of weeks ago - we've decided we need to ban you for that' the very first thing I'd be thinking was 'did I know that at the time' (note - not 'did I think it was possible?' but did I definitively know?') and honestly, in five years of playing I can't think of another incidence of a deception perpetrated in-game like this which has resulted in an account ban, which would probably go a long way to inform my thinking.

If this was someone getting someone's account details and changing their password or something so that they lost account access it would be open and shut, absolutely without question. Any online game will ban for that as it's real world stuff with a monetary loss. This wasn't though, which is why it's far more of a grey area in my opinion. That's why I'd probably have gone down the gypsy's warning route and used it as a vehicle to spread the news since that does place the decision into the rules - do that and any future player who then transgresses doesn't really have a leg to stand on. On that aspect of the thing, this guy did have one to stand on at the time in my opinion, due to the vagueness of the rules, albeit a misshapen and not very aesthetically pleasing one.

The issue with the alleged racism is far more cut and dried but also by definition one that we're just never going to see the evidence about. Nor should we really, we don't have the right to start demanding that, but without it and without any corroboration from FDEv that yes, that was the aspect of the whole thing that actually provoked any action, I can't make that assumption or offer any meaningful comment on it.
Click to expand...

This, exactly this. This is the problem.

FDEV has drawn a line and we deserve to know where that line stands. Yes we know all about harassment, racism, etc, or anything else related to outside the game, nobody is disputing that. You can’t do that and if you do there will be consequences, that has always been the case.

The confusion and grey area here is that those rules were applied towards seemingly in game actions that most players would have thought to be previously allowed. The concern now is, “what other in game jerk-move actions could someone be banned for?”

If FDEV would have simply said “All of this involves some other out of game things that we will not discuss”, I bet this thread wouldn’t have made it past page 5. Everyone would have accepted that and moved on. But FDEV’s non-discussion policy is letting everyone believe that the reason for these bans could be related to in-game actions.

I think as players, we are entitled to know what is and is not allowed within the game, seeing as any sort of in-game PVP action could seemingly be interpreted as in violation of the broad CoC clauses, should FDEV decide that.

And no, simply saying “don’t be a richard” is not enough. Ganking noobs at Deciat is being a richard, should the person be banned?

Here are Some specific examples, and can one get banned for any of them:

1. Am I allowed to use my Gankotron 2000 to melt that sidewinder the moment they step out of the starter zone?

2. Can I do so over and over again, mercilessly, every time I see them in open?

3. Can I interdict someone and tell them to drop their cargo promising to spare their life if they do, then go ahead and kill them anyways once they comply?

4. Can I join someone in a multicrew session the fire at a station to make the station kill them?

5. Can I go up to a noob and promise to show them a nice place where they can make some money, then lure them to an anarchy system and kill them?

6. Can I take a bunch of people on my carrier out to the middle of nowhere where there are no stars in jump range, then lock down the carrier and jump away saying “haha see you later suckers?”

What if for that #6 scenario, someone on that carrier was so new that they didn’t know about the self destruct feature and thought they were stuck there forever? Would it be my responsibility to make sure they are aware of it? Should I be checking ID to make sure none of the ones boarding my carrier were underage?

All of those actions above are real jerk moves, and yes you’d be an @-hole to do some of them but can someone be banned for doing any of them? Before all this, I think most people would have said “no”.
 

Scoob101

S
Sublime said:
This, exactly this. This is the problem.

FDEV has drawn a line and we deserve to know where that line stands. Yes we know all about harassment, racism, etc, or anything else related to outside the game, nobody is disputing that. You can’t do that and if you do there will be consequences, that has always been the case.

The confusion and grey area here is that those rules were applied towards seemingly in game actions that most players would have thought to be previously allowed. The concern now is, “what other in game jerk-move actions could someone be banned for?”

If FDEV would have simply said “All of this involves some other out of game things that we will not discuss”, I bet this thread wouldn’t have made it past page 5. Everyone would have accepted that and moved on. But FDEV’s non-discussion policy is letting everyone believe that the reason for these bans could be related to in-game actions.

I think as players, we are entitled to know what is and is not allowed within the game, seeing as any sort of in-game PVP action could seemingly be interpreted as in violation of the broad CoC clauses, should FDEV decide that.

And no, simply saying “don’t be a richard” is not enough. Ganking noobs at Deciat is being a richard, should the person be banned?

Here are Some specific examples, and can one get banned for any of them:

1. Am I allowed to use my Gankotron 2000 to melt that sidewinder the moment they step out of the starter zone?

2. Can I do so over and over again, mercilessly, every time I see them in open?

3. Can I interdict someone and tell them to drop their cargo promising to spare their life if they do, then go ahead and kill them anyways once they comply?

4. Can I join someone in a multicrew session the fire at a station to make the station kill them?

5. Can I go up to a noob and promise to show them a nice place where they can make some money, then lure them to an anarchy system and kill them?

6. Can I take a bunch of people on my carrier out to the middle of nowhere where there are no stars in jump range, then lock down the carrier and jump away saying “haha see you later suckers?”

What if for that #6 scenario, someone on that carrier was so new that they didn’t know about the self destruct feature and thought they were stuck there forever? Would it be my responsibility to make sure they are aware of it? Should I be checking ID to make sure none of the ones boarding my carrier were underage?

All of those actions above are real jerk moves, and yes you’d be an @-hole to do some of them but can someone be banned for doing any of them? Before all this, I think most people would have said “no”.
Click to expand...


All reasonable questions, however, I'm pretty sure the actual answer is, you won't get banned for any of that unless we chose to have an emotional reaction to something mean that was written about our game. In which case, you better watch out.
 

LeoBartlet

LeoBartlet
Red Anders said:
Hah it's cool - spoilers within 30 minutes of an episode of something airing are a bit off but in the real, wired world I accept I have to take responsibility for things myself after that. The only sure way to avoid spoilers for anything is to go for complete internet blackout, which as you know I've actually done before, but it's not like I haven't already read all the books when it comes to The Expanse.
Click to expand...

Excellent now is a good time to tell you Han Solo shot Dumbledore!
 

Northpin

Northpin
Sublime said:
6. Can I take a bunch of people on my carrier out to the middle of nowhere where there are no stars in jump range, then lock down the carrier and jump away saying “haha see you later suckers?”
Click to expand...

For this to work you need to keep the carrier there, disable the Shipyard (if any) and make sure you allow them to land, else they suicide and return to bubble instead of the carrier or they have to lose the ship and take suicidewinder...
 

Dillon Fallon

Dillon Fallon
Sublime said:
This, exactly this. This is the problem.

FDEV has drawn a line and we deserve to know where that line stands. Yes we know all about harassment, racism, etc, or anything else related to outside the game, nobody is disputing that. You can’t do that and if you do there will be consequences, that has always been the case.

The confusion and grey area here is that those rules were applied towards seemingly in game actions that most players would have thought to be previously allowed. The concern now is, “what other in game jerk-move actions could someone be banned for?”

If FDEV would have simply said “All of this involves some other out of game things that we will not discuss”, I bet this thread wouldn’t have made it past page 5. Everyone would have accepted that and moved on. But FDEV’s non-discussion policy is letting everyone believe that the reason for these bans could be related to in-game actions.

I think as players, we are entitled to know what is and is not allowed within the game, seeing as any sort of in-game PVP action could seemingly be interpreted as in violation of the broad CoC clauses, should FDEV decide that.

And no, simply saying “don’t be a richard” is not enough. Ganking noobs at Deciat is being a richard, should the person be banned?

Here are Some specific examples, and can one get banned for any of them:

1. Am I allowed to use my Gankotron 2000 to melt that sidewinder the moment they step out of the starter zone?

2. Can I do so over and over again, mercilessly, every time I see them in open?

3. Can I interdict someone and tell them to drop their cargo promising to spare their life if they do, then go ahead and kill them anyways once they comply?

4. Can I join someone in a multicrew session the fire at a station to make the station kill them?

5. Can I go up to a noob and promise to show them a nice place where they can make some money, then lure them to an anarchy system and kill them?

6. Can I take a bunch of people on my carrier out to the middle of nowhere where there are no stars in jump range, then lock down the carrier and jump away saying “haha see you later suckers?”

What if for that #6 scenario, someone on that carrier was so new that they didn’t know about the self destruct feature and thought they were stuck there forever? Would it be my responsibility to make sure they are aware of it? Should I be checking ID to make sure none of the ones boarding my carrier were underage?

All of those actions above are real jerk moves, and yes you’d be an @-hole to do some of them but can someone be banned for doing any of them? Before all this, I think most people would have said “no”.
Click to expand...
The worst part?

Well, since we're blurring the lines here and you're doing some in game stuff that you think is one foot over the meanie threshold and you think you might get a ban, I'm sure there's some who would pull back from that, but possibly others who might decide to go 'all in'.

The same punishment for in game and out of game incidents could be a dangerous precident.
 

Screemonster

Screemonster
Sublime said:
FDEV has drawn a line and we deserve to know where that line stands.
Click to expand...
It doesn't benefit FDev to tell you where the line is.
Unfortunately I've run into this exact problem in smaller communities, and there's a special kind of player that demands to know exactly where the line is and will lawyer to the high heavens about the technical details when they do something that aggravates literally everyone, arguing that whatever odious thing they just did is technically allowable.

My usual solution has been to laugh at them and boot them out anyway. If you have to go around asking what the maximum amount of a jerk you can be before you get kicked out, then...
Why would I want someone around whose intent is to be as big a jerk as they can get away with?
This is why nearly every squadron or discord, where they have rules, will have something to the effect of "if you play stupid games then you'll win stupid prizes" to head off that kind of rules-lawyering.

However, when fees are involved (such as... well, buying the game) it gets a little trickier and the last thing they'll want to deal with is some jerkass being all "HWELL ACKSHUALLY UNDER PARAGRAPH 34 SUBSECTION A YOU DEFINE DISALLOWED TERMINOLOGY IN COMMUNICATIONS AND I THINK YOU'LL FIND THAT I WAS CALLING THAT OTHER PLAYER A MEATBALL IN SYSTEM CHAT THEREFORE THIS BAN IS NULL AND VOID"
 

Brrokk

Brrokk
Sublime said:
This, exactly this. This is the problem.

FDEV has drawn a line and we deserve to know where that line stands. Yes we know all about harassment, racism, etc, or anything else related to outside the game, nobody is disputing that. You can’t do that and if you do there will be consequences, that has always been the case.

The confusion and grey area here is that those rules were applied towards seemingly in game actions that most players would have thought to be previously allowed. The concern now is, “what other in game jerk-move actions could someone be banned for?”

If FDEV would have simply said “All of this involves some other out of game things that we will not discuss”, I bet this thread wouldn’t have made it past page 5. Everyone would have accepted that and moved on. But FDEV’s non-discussion policy is letting everyone believe that the reason for these bans could be related to in-game actions.

I think as players, we are entitled to know what is and is not allowed within the game, seeing as any sort of in-game PVP action could seemingly be interpreted as in violation of the broad CoC clauses, should FDEV decide that.

And no, simply saying “don’t be a richard” is not enough. Ganking noobs at Deciat is being a richard, should the person be banned?

Here are Some specific examples, and can one get banned for any of them:

1. Am I allowed to use my Gankotron 2000 to melt that sidewinder the moment they step out of the starter zone?

2. Can I do so over and over again, mercilessly, every time I see them in open?

3. Can I interdict someone and tell them to drop their cargo promising to spare their life if they do, then go ahead and kill them anyways once they comply?

4. Can I join someone in a multicrew session the fire at a station to make the station kill them?

5. Can I go up to a noob and promise to show them a nice place where they can make some money, then lure them to an anarchy system and kill them?

6. Can I take a bunch of people on my carrier out to the middle of nowhere where there are no stars in jump range, then lock down the carrier and jump away saying “haha see you later suckers?”

What if for that #6 scenario, someone on that carrier was so new that they didn’t know about the self destruct feature and thought they were stuck there forever? Would it be my responsibility to make sure they are aware of it? Should I be checking ID to make sure none of the ones boarding my carrier were underage?

All of those actions above are real jerk moves, and yes you’d be an @-hole to do some of them but can someone be banned for doing any of them? Before all this, I think most people would have said “no”.
Click to expand...
On the face of it, any of those could involve deceiving or exploiting, so given the right circumstances I guess one could be banned for any of them. It's just very unlikely that a single instance would be high-profile enough and unlucky enough to attract FD's attention. But surely we knew this already and governing with a light touch doesn't mean FD can't react to something they consider too objectionable to pass over.
 

Bottom Hat

Bottom Hat
LeoBartlet said:
Were you not suspicious about the bloke in a nurses dress who looked like Mr Rubbernuke?

In hospital I mean not your private residence :D
Click to expand...

It further raises the question, did he look like Delaine or Barry Gibb at the time? And subsequently, did he sing "stayin' alive" when you went in for anaesthesia? I'm not sure which would be worse.

As long as you couldn't smell some sort of grill when you came around, I'd say it's likely you had Barry.
 

LeoBartlet

LeoBartlet
Bottom Hat said:
It further raises the question, did he look like Delaine or Barry Gibb at the time? And subsequently, did he sing "stayin' alive" when you went in for anaesthesia? I'm not sure which would be worse.

As long as you couldn't smell some sort of grill when you came around, I'd say it's likely you had Barry.
Click to expand...

Well social distancing rules at the time prevented Red from seeing exactly who it was but he mentioned warm moist hands so that could only be Barry surely?

How deep is your love indeed.
 
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom